Nice American Man wondering about his relationship with Ukraine woman

[GQBlues]

GQ,

What about unmet expectations?  Would fit in well IMHO as both precursor to infidelity and explain the 'Princess Complex' (which to me sounds like an entitlement issue).  What married man here hasn't heard the words "But... you promised!!"  

BC-

The money issues with AM/AM marriages and AM/RW marriages are really one and the same. The day to day rigors of making daily life in the face financial challenges.

What you described as 'unmet expectations' between AM/RW marriages ( to me anyway) falls more in the 'cultural differences' category. Because of differences in economic lifestyles between the two regions, more times than not a typical RW would have no way of fully grasping what life can be really like in, say, the US. An insecure, turned free-spending American Romeo can make that even worst because he believes the 'princess complex' tag. He can well afford to do that in Russia or Ukraine - unless he has millions, ain't gonna happen at home. Not for long anyway.

To me, this would have nothing to do with that particular woman as having princess complex. It would have more to do with the man's insecurities or predisposed beliefs, or both. She couldn't possibly know what life will be like and the only hint of it she'll have before she arrives is by her fiance's actions in Russia.

[GQBlues]

Sorry, don't buy it. All the very attractive women that I knew had more than their fair share of attention (wanted and unwanted  :evil:)

Misha,

I have no doubt you don't.

I have a friend. Nice young man in his late twenties. Married a woman MUCH more attractive. She had been complaining to my wife for some time that she was not attracted to him. Well, as it happens, they befriended a nice, younger, more attractive young man. She is the one, finally, that told the other man that she wanted him and within a week she moved in with him. Sometimes, there is a good reason why men should be insecure  :evil:

In your world I am certain that happens more times than not. No argument from me.

[BC]

My "mistake" if it were indeed a "mistake" was to accept a woman too young and too beautiful that fit all the "other" (more important) criteria.  It was a fear I had from the very beginning, but then there is that other little thing called love.

I guess I could argue that the age difference was not the driving force of our divorce but I would be wrong. 

Ken,

I truly believe that the only mistake per se you made was to disregard that the young woman you married had the potential to change.. maybe even more than that WOULD change..

I remember well a 'young thang' many years ago that at the age of 19 had both the looks and attitude that very much appealed.  I met her years later, hardly recognized her physically, even went out with her to find that we were on very different mental planes definitely not conducive to forming a relationship.  Believe it or not, I am referring to my first wife.  Later in her 30's it seems she leveled out and assume found someone to share her life with.

I really believe that women experience some transitional phase somewhere in their 30's whereas most of us men in our late 40's have already settled in quite a bit.

Yes, your age difference was a contributing factor, but maybe in a way you did not foresee.

[KenC]

BC,
What is the old saying?
 Men marry women and hope they never change and women marry men hoping to change them.
 

[Misha]

In your world I am certain that happens more times than not. No argument from me.

And what world is that? But, true, in your world it is much easier. Women just seek "refuge"   Then again, I don't have any pretensions of being a liberal, bad boy player  :evil:

[Misha]

BC,
What is the old saying?
 Men marry women and hope they never change and women marry men hoping to change them.
 

And, pity the man who does not try to change  :evil:

[Gator]

My hypothesis is that those actively seeking such marriages (like the OP) are in the worst kind of trouble.

Agree 100%.  Such men will rationalize away the negative when instead they should start with "This makes no sense" and go from there, requiring multiple compelling positive reasons.

I've seen it time and time again that someone comes on board stating 'I date younger women in the US' almost as justification.. quite honestly I have a hard time believing it, second, 'dating' with the goal of getting between the sheets is quite different than seeking someone for the explicit purposes of marriage.

I question whether the young AW he dated was the exception rather than the rule.  And like you BC, what was the motivation and outcome.

If one does decide to go that direction, ask your mate about their previous dating history..  chances are you are both diving into very dark waters.

When corresponding with my future wife, I had several misgivings but felt a kindred spirit in our conversations.  When I asked her if she had experience with much older men, she revealed that her ex-husband and father of her children was only 5 years younger than me, plus she said I had a smaller stomach.  Hearing that and other positive overlaps, I felt compelled to at least meet her, allocating a week in Moscow as part of a 30-day WMVM trip.  She agreed only to have dinner with me, and when I asked about the next day's plans, she answered only with, "We'll see."  Well, six years later we married, and we still have some key diferences.

[Gator]

I guess I could argue that the age difference was not the driving force of our divorce but I would be wrong.  What is "lack of life experience" or the "princess complex" if not examples of the trappings of youth and beauty?
KenC

I tend to agree with BC's thought about change.  While I believe the direction a young woman changes is unpredictable, it is inevitable that she will change.  It is natural.  Complicating this is being placed in a brand new environment with abundant opportunities for just about anything.  Even an older woman will change after becoming adjusted and availing herself of the abundant new opportunities.

What is "lack of life experience" or the "princess complex" if not examples of the trappings of youth and beauty?

Do you think that you may have contributed to her princess complex assuming she had one, however slight?  You impress me as a strong man who would take care of his woman yet not spoil her.  However, I have never asked you the question.  And some women know how to work a man, "...open doors with just a smile."

[BC]

BC,
What is the old saying?
 Men marry women and hope they never change and women marry men hoping to change them.
 

Da!

[KenC]

Do you think that you may have contributed to her princess complex assuming she had one, however slight?  You impress me as a strong man who would take care of his woman yet not spoil her.  However, I have never asked you the question.  And some women know how to work a man, "...open doors with just a smile."

Gator,
Of course I enabled Lena's "princess complex" by making her life easy as possible.  Don't think I have not thought about that too.  I spoiled the hell out of my first wife too.  She definitely had a "princess complex" after 25 years of such treatment from me.

Funny thing is that even though I also spoiled the hell out of my kids, I always demanded that they appreciated what I was doing for them.  Neither of them grew up or now display any ill affects from my material generosity.  In fact I received the highest compliment from my son on a recent visit.  He told me he had "the perfect childhood" and that I was most responsible for it being so.

I have wondered how it is possible to give everything from your heart to the woman you love and not spoil her?  And I am not only talking material things.
KenC

[Vinnvinny]

Well, based on your personal experience and summation:  Speaking of absolutes, I'm on the pickle as to which extreme in your sampling is worst. Speaking of generalities, what do those two extremes average to? That's from the men's side.

The average would have been normal everyday men looking for a good wife which is I suspect can also be applied to guys who join agencies and dating sites.

From the women's side, please feel free to enlighten us. Female attendance extreme sampling from you is waited upon with bated breath. Though seriously I have little doubt extremes and averages ain’t going to be any prettier either.

Good time girls through to ugly fat ones with the average being normal everyday women looking for a good husband which is I suspect can also be applied to ladies who join agencies and dating sites.

You see, I've no experience going to seedy Korean massage parlor either (do you?) but based on other people's summation, like what you just gave regarding men attending socials (females notwitstanding), it doesn’t really take much to get a great perspective into its activities, would you agree?

I haven’t but thanks for the interest. I limit myself to Thai soapy massages these days but only twice a week since the crisis.

No, I don’t agree at all. Guys who have been to socials usually report the same as I do that there are a wide range of both sexes who attended. Guys (like you) who have never been to one often report something quite different. I guess the same applies to Korean massage parlours but I couldn’t be sure.

Unless of course the OP was clearly misled and mistaken for packing a bag full of condoms and Viagra.

I can’t really comment as the O/P only mentioned “Viagra and condoms” so I guess the phrase “a bag full” was invented by you to support your staement and could be 100% accurate or 100% inaccurate.

What reason/s would I ever possibly have to experience socials?

Again, I don’t know but as you mentioned the calibre of ladies & men who attend I thought you must have been to quite a few.

But what about you, what was/were your reason/s for wanting to experience it? Which extremes in your sampling did you feel a most intimate belonging to?

It was the hookers that sparked my interest. Instead of walking the streets looking for them I thought it was a great idea for them to be viewable all in once place. I was firmly in the halitosis and BO brigade. There was good camaraderie but the other attendees didn’t seem to want to mix with us so much and we were always quoted higher prices.

[GQBlues]

It was the hookers that sparked my interest.

Phew, too long 'nuff.

[TheBlackCat]

I think AFA is exactly the type of tour that Jooky is talking about.   I have done my share of tours too.

The quality of the men on the tour is not as bad as some were portraying.  Most of the guys are sincere.  Most are walking around in the dark with no real experience with RW.   A high proportion are going to have some quality that makes them less desirable on the American dating scene.

The women on the tour will have some very sincere women as well.  Some like the men have something wrong that makes them less desirable on the Russian Dating market. Usually they are the sincere ones.   There will be a high number of scammers and serial daters.  Those are usually the ones you would look at twice.

If you go on an AFA tour don't think about finding a woman as a goal of that tour.  Think about going to learn about the country and to get familiar with traveling to the FSU.  If you happen to meet a sincere woman you want to marry that would be a plus but the odds are against it.   You will have a lot of fun and make a lot of friends.

Before I leave the agency tour thoughts I will say that I would not be prone to recommend AFA for a tour.   There is one tour that I would recommend for the purposes that you are looking for.   That would be one of  Jack's tours.  His are different, have fewer scammers and can teach you a lot about travel and searching for RW.   His agency is First Dream.  He does about 2 a year and limits them to 12 men.   If you look way back in the TR section you will find a blow by blow discussion of my tour with Jack.   If someone has a lot of experience with travel to the FSU, agencies and RW then I think any tour including Jacks are a waste but for a newbie............

Turboguy thanks a lot for your comment. It is so helpful. AFA is no longer an option then. I will certainly check First Dream's website now. And to everybody sorry for having intruded this thread. I must say reading everybody's comments is a great learning for a newbie just as me.

[Turboguy]

Turbo,

What would you say is the biggest factor for divorce in those 10 marriages, age or generational, cultural differences?  FWIW I believe if you took 10 broken marriages of Americans that reflected the same age differences as the 10 RW/AM you would find the divorces for the same reasons.

From what I have experienced in my life, seen with my own eyes and read here and various other places, age is probably the biggest factor in marriage and divorce. The younger the lady and the larger the difference of age the less likely the marriage will stand the test of time. It's almost as if for each generation difference the more walls and hurdles are in place for divorce. I'm not trying to put you on the spot as I realize the difference of age between yours and your wife's but, you are probably uniquely qualified for that answer.

What say you?

Personally I don't think age difference is a big factor.  I think an age gap is just another form of marrying out of your league and has the same weight as any other form of marrying out of your league.

I think the number one cause of divorce is "poor choice of a marriage partner".  It is probably easier to do with a RW since the courting time is usually so much shorter and there can be a lot of hidden motivations that don't become apparent until it is too late. 

I do think age gap marriages can have a "shelf life".  I will buy that theory.  I am sure some women who may be quite happy with a husband in his late 50's or 60's may find it different when her guy hits 70 or 80, and maybe not.   I also think that when he does hit that stage that many of the ones with little age gap will also be divorced at that point in time.

When it comes to age gaps I think one important part is that he did not fall in love with the youth, with a young body and a pretty face, and that she did not fall in love with a ticket to America and a luxurious lifestyle.  The best chance of success is when they fell in love despite the age gap and not because they were looking for a young hot chick.

I think Gator made a good point about life stages.  I think being happy with the kind of life each wants is an important thing and if one wants to slow down and one wants to party all the time, as an example, it may create added problems.   Babies can be a big issue as well.  I have seen a few marriages with an age difference that ended over parenthood.   A woman at 25 who doesn't want kids may change in many, many ways over the next decade including her ideas about kids as she watches the clock winding down.

[mies]

Perhaps you'd choose a dumb 25 year old because he was young and hot over an older man with many good qualities, but the woman I date don't.

You sound offended yet you shouldn't be.
Please let me point out few gaps in your reasoning. Firstly, we discussed physical features ceteris paribus.
Secondly, we shall not go as far as assuming that all attractive young men are dumb and their only good qualities are their youth and hot body. Were you not hot when you were 25? Or were you dumb?  And if so - do you get more clever, or do you get more attractive as you age? (pardon me for such example).

I do not see why dating someone of my age and my "looks" is shallow.  Especially if this person is also bright and with wonderful personality. I am attractive, I am bright,  have good personality. I want my children to be bright and beautiful and healthy. It is known that not only older mothers contribute to pathologies of children, but also older fathers have higher risk of having children with pathologies/genetic diseases. Why should I be with someone who will not produce good children? Can you explain why you call it shallow? Do you think that if my husband is my age, bright, attractive, and successful - I am being shallow, and i would not be shallow if I dated a guy 30 years my senior, not successful, not bright, and reasonably unattractive? if so - well, russian folklore has a reply for this "любовь зла, но пусть козлы и не надеятся"  

[mies]

I disagree.  The factors (and balance) you have cited may be important for some people, but they are not universal.  I also disagree that relationships take a huge amount of effort.  If you truly love someone with all your heart and soul, you always want the best for him(her).

I believe you have to understand, and respect, the living soul who has entrusted his(/her) life to you.   A narcissist, or an individual who is spiritually dead, may always look for "balance", but that person was not capable of real love to begin with.  It is more a familiarity and convenience, rather than an emotional tie or devotion to the person.

I also disagree that you can't know you are in love very quickly.  I knew within a week that I was in love.   My love is not deeper today than it was 25 plus years ago.  What has deepened is my understanding of my husband.  

In the end, every marriage is its own kingdom.  We can comment on behaviours and outcomes, we can even predict failures, but in the end, there is no formula.

so true - on each point.
I knew within 5 minutes that i was in love with my husband.

[Turboguy]

Mies, I have heard a lot of people who said something like "I would love to be able to go back and live my life over knowing what I know now"   I think the just of that is we do continue to learn as we go through life and someone who is smart at 25 is a lot, lot smarter at 45. 

I agree that a younger person can be intelligent and the bodies have often not suffered the ravages of time. 

An older person can often be more settled in his carrer and finances, more even in his dispostion and more able to value finding a really good woman.

There are pros and cons to everything and I have always believed that everyone has a right to decide what is right for his or her own life and to live thier life accordingly.

[mies]

Mies, I have heard a lot of people who said something like "I would love to be able to go back and live my life over knowing what I know now"   I think the just of that is we do continue to learn as we go through life and someone who is smart at 25 is a lot, lot smarter at 45.  

I agree that a younger person can be intelligent and the bodies have often not suffered the ravages of time.  

An older person can often be more settled in his carrer and finances, more even in his dispostion and more able to value finding a really good woman.

There are pros and cons to everything and I have always believed that everyone has a right to decide what is right for his or her own life and to live thier life accordingly.

I completely agree with you Turbo. Of course a person who is smart in 25 will most likely be even smarter at 40 and 50. I find insulting insinuations that attractive people are dumb and shallow. I am attractive, I know I am not dumb and I have objective proofs for it, as well as I know I am not shallow.
In my very humble opinion - it is safe to say that if absolutely equal in terms of personalities, brightness, income, wisdom, interpersonal communicative skills, two people where chosen, and the only difference between them was age and volume of loose skin here and there, and both were available for marriage, and woman did not have some personal issues related to abusive parents or previous bad relationship, and was risk-neutral - then I think woman would choose the younger guy of her age, and not the older guy who is 30 years her senior.  
I agree that woman often choose older guys because there are no young guys of "equal quality" available, because women think that older men are more stable, more mature, more financially secure, will be less likely to divorce and cheat on wives, for some women - will replace the figure of the father who was not there/available for this woman when she grew up, and so on and so on. The argument with which I cannot agree is that women genuinely are more attracted to significantly older partners - for the very reason of the large age difference. The skin gets loose not only on females as they age. Guys are prone to same problem. And if men don't like to see loose skin on their female partners  - why same men repeat like mantra that it is very natural for young women to adore loose skin on older men?

As for being able to change the past - I have similar thoughts sometimes. But this far - I never wanted to change any major things. Few things I regret - mostly for not spending more time with the people whom I loved and who are gone, and not saying/showing to them more often how much i loved them. But this sort of regret is important - because there are many people around me who are alive, and I try to take every chance to show how important they are for me. For all other choices and decisions - I take a stand. To say that I want to change the past is to say I am not completely happy with the present, and the path how I got here. 

[BC]

Mies, I have heard a lot of people who said something like "I would love to be able to go back and live my life over knowing what I know now"   I think the just of that is we do continue to learn as we go through life and someone who is smart at 25 is a lot, lot smarter at 45.  

TG,

you must admit though that those 'smarter now' 45+ or so men indeed lost or missed the bus once or even several times over.. AND due to the fact that they are still looking here does very little to substantiate, and even disproves your point (and don't go blaming it all on AW.. I don't buy that).  The big benefit I see with an age equal marriage is that you have a chance to grow and learn together without one or the other partner feeling unequal, or authoritative.

We ALL learn the most from our mistakes in life..  marrying some 20 something woman (well girl) deprives her of her own learning experiences..  All your wisdom and knowledge is viewed as 'theory' and nothing more.. don't forget that.

[edit - expounding on the subject] 

I'll even go further and rather boldly state that if you are marrying someone that could be your daughter, don't expect anything more than a daughter on an intellectual level..  I've seen posts saying : 'but RW are so much more mature than their western peers..'  To that I say BS... Total, unequivocal BS...  Just another rationalization to get into that short skirt sorta like this:

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfr40TDfmM0[/youtube]

[Jooky]

Mies,

I'm not offended at all. I think your arguments are silly because you're completing twisting what I've written here.

You implied that I 'buy' women with my money and status (I wonder where you get this information) and that a woman couldn't possibly genuinely choose me over a young 25 year hot stud. We did not discuss looks all else being equal. You are putting an emphasis on youth and looks, and I say most women I know don't think this way. More men do. If they didn't, this board or the Russian bride business wouldn't exist.

I'm saying the women I date are not that shallow to choose a man only because he is young and hot. All else is never equal.

I didn't say it was shallow to date someone your own age. I didn't say attractive people are shallow. I didn't say looks aren't important to women. I didn't say that women are attracted to men 30 years older than them, and definitely didn't say that a woman should choose a much older, unattractive, unsuccessful mate. That's ridiculous. I'm not sure what you're reading.

You say women don't like older men, and the more you repeat it, I guess it becomes true. 

What I did say is that just as women tend to be attracted to taller men, they also tend to be attracted to older men. I will repeat again, I am talking about slightly older men, not grandpas.

I say this based on:

Knowing many women that deliberately went after men 5-10 years older than them.

Knowing many women that would choose a man a slightly older over a man slightly younger based on looks alone, because they prefer a man to look a bit more 'mature'. I've known quite a few that find some older features like a bit of grey hair or crows feet to be sexy (again, I'm not talking about white haired, saggy, beer bellied grandpas).

The sexiest men polls that favor more rugged looking men in their 30s and 40s over smooth boys in their 20s.

The fact that most women online are looking for men their age to 10 years older, not their age to 10 years younger. You'll find the opposite in men's profiles.

The fact that most women date and marry men older than them.

You've only supported this by saying Mic Jagger is sexy, and of course your husband is hot. I assume he's not 25, but maybe I'm wrong. 

To sum up, there are a few cougars out their chasing their boy toys, but in general I think women prefer men over boys, and a manly look usually comes with a bit of age.

If you want to argue about significantly older partners and large age differences, please argue with someone else.

[mies]

i did not imply that you buy women :-) and my arguments aren't silly - they are objective, maybe sometimes absurd, but not silly . Yours are highly subjective.
Choosing someone 2-5 years older/younger is not a big deal. Equating 5 years older to 25 years older - is a big mistake - those are two completely different stories and one (successful marriages to 5y older men) should not be used as a proof for another one (successful marriages to 25y older men).
You are saying that 40yo actors are universally chosen because 40+ is the most attractive age in men for all women. I said that 40yo actors are chosen because women who choose them are already close to 40yo age - and they aren't picking somebody much older than themselves, younger men aren't offered for poll, and 40yo celebrities look more like 30yo when they are dressed up and made-up. What's so silly in my argument?  

If young women in their 20s were universally attracted to 40-50yo men - those marriages would be in majority. We already know that older men prefer younger women - nobody on this board had ever objected it. If your words were true and younger women preferred older men - they would reveal their preferences through marriages and dating much older men. However, marriages with large age gap are in minority. older men do not seem to mind marrying younger women - then where is the problem? Older men are already married? Or maybe younger women aren't that much interested in marrying older guys?
You are funny Jooky ))) you somehow are indignant of the idea that woman can be attracted to physical features in males. Do you think it is only prerogative for men to pick the exterior? Do you think that women should only love men for interior and money, and everything else would be a shallow behavior?
Mind this - I never said a thing about universal beauty standards - I was merely talking about young bodies being a better fit than older bodies. My beauty standard and taste for men may be very different of that by Aloe, or other women on this forum. I never commented on the measurements of men, or height, or any other features. I only said that younger people have younger and tighter skin. And yes - I like tight skin Do you defy the women's right to be physically attracted to men? It does not look quite right to me - be attracted only to brain, but have sex with body. If only brain should be attractive - then no sex should be needed between happy and not shallow couples. ))) If only brain  and financial stability are attractive - then exchanging ideas and flow of cash/gifts should be stimulating enough for happy life and sexual satisfaction.
And if I am able to find a man who attracts me both mentally, emotionally, and physically, I do not understand why i have to go for less and pick a man who only attracts me on one dimension - let's say mentally. Why? Please - help me to give more clever arguments, explain it to me Choosing a "perfect man" is a dominant stragegy, don't you think so?
 In proper attraction - both brain and body should be attractive.


To use "women are looking for men 10 years and older in their profiles", especially at international dating profiles - is a lousy argument.
You know it, women know it, everyone knows it - that there are not many 20yo men on "find russian bride" websites. Plus, 20yo western men don't have enough money nor any interest in bringing a 10 years older russian woman into the country and paying all the expenses. 30yo woman has to be torn from reality to expect that she will find a foreigner 10+ years her junior. And because 30yo good men aren't frequent on these websites either, and women want to increase their chances - they do not set any age limit at all, or write it "to 60yo".

Finally - you are twisting my words. I am putting emphasis on relative youth. If you are 40, - 45yo woman is  not too old for you, and she may look very young for her age. 70yo woman, on the contrary - will appear old for you, no matter how young she looks for her age. When I am 30 - 30yo men look good and attractive for me, when I were 10 - 30yo was an old dude for me - an "adult" - totally different species.

about Jagger and my husband. My husband is 1.5 older than me, when I turned 25 he was 26.5 - we share all the same things and values and interests. He is hot now, and he was equally hot ages ago when we first met. So yes - you are wrong in your assumptions about my husband. Mr Jagger was used as an example that "sexy star" or "sexy celebrity" is chosen by totally different criteria than choosing a sexy partner for happy life together.

[Jooky]

Jooky may I ask you  when you talk about agencies if AFA is one of them

BlackCat, yup it is.  

I don't know if they run webcam services, but the rest does apply.

There are many photos and clips from AFA socials online, as well as a few movies. Have you seen them? Apparently Vinny here attended one of the socials that was filmed for a documentary (because he mentions a few of the characters from the film). It'd be interesting to hear what he thinks about it, if he's seen it.

You can check all that out and then better judge if the Romance Tour route is the way to go for you.

Here's something to ponder:

Where else but a Romance Tour can you find yourself at a table full of slim younger women, all attention focused on you?  Seems like a good deal! But, what if the situation was reversed?

If you were seriously looking for a wife, would you go to a party where:

There are 7 men for every woman.
Most of the women are much older than you.
Most of the women are divorced with children.
Most of the women have some quality that makes them undesirable in the dating scene.

Would you sit a table with a bunch of guys and vie for the attention of a completely average woman 25 years older than you?

Doesn't it make you wonder what kind of women put themselves in this situation?

[BC]

Where else but a Romance Tour can you find yourself at a table full of slim younger women, all attention focused on you?  Seems like a good deal! But, what if the situation was reversed?

Read TG's TR.. IIRC his mind was already thousands of miles away on a BBD and there were plenty of women interested in him at the social.. must have been hell sitting there after paying a few grand or more just to wish they would go away.  And just think about all of those disappointed women at his table..

Yeah, socials are good I reckon, learn a lot about the country, the culture, the history, all stuffed somewhere between hangovers and hoping to get your willie whistled..

[Jooky]

Equating 5 years older to 25 years older

There is no way that I am equating 5 years older to 25 years older. You're imagining things because you want to argue about large age differences. Again, argue with someone else about that. I think large age differences are unusual and highly risky, but up to the individuals involved.

If you want to argue about women and physical attraction, also argue with someone else. Of course women desire good looking men. I never said anything to the contrary. All I said is that the women I date have other criteria as well and that yes, they do genuinely choose me over a younger stud. I also contend that other qualities, such as confidence and power, affect physical attraction for a woman, more so than they do for a man.

I directly stated that I only date women that I know are physically attracted to me as I am to them, so I don't know where you get this nonsense about denying the right to physical attraction.

What I disagreed with is the ideal of a 25 year old smooth skinned six pack abs hunk as the ideal of beauty that all women seek. I just don't see it. That's all.

Why are you trying to push these other silly, I mean, absurd, arguments on me? I think couples should be attracted to each other on all levels. Are you even reading my posts?

[mies]

ok - let's shake hands and call peace