Agencies discussing other agencies?

[Jack]

Dan, first let me say you have done a wonderful job in providing the men who are in the pursuit for a Russian bride an open and honest forum to learn and ask questions. You have also provided a wonderful media for the guys who have found a good Russian woman to seek advice and help as they go forward with their new and hopeful long lasting relationship. As well you have provided a forum where some very seasoned and expereinced individuals can offer their "clueless bat" without having to worry about pissing off new guys or scaring them away from potential advertiors.

I had just started to read the discussion about one agency approaching an employee of another agency and offering this person some money for some information.  Then this owner of agency who bought the information let the word get back to the agency where he bought the information from for the suspected purpose of having the employee fired. Now at this point I don't know if this happened or not, I think as I read what was written that maybe some of these things may have happened. The truth, as aways probably lies in the middle somewhere. I was sure wanting to find out what if any of this did happen and was going to post my comments about the situation and then I saw the thread was locked.

Dan, please, the RWD is becoming known as a Russian discussion board that is very fair. It allows all sides of a story. It does not have moderators who tend to lead newby's to paying advertisers or restrict or censor positive things said about certain agencies. In short, more and more guys are learning they can get the straight scoop on ALL aspects on Russian women on the RWD, which is one of the reasons I mention and recommend the RWD to others. Look at the membership and number of members who are on line at any given time. Compare the number of members who are online at any given time  to  other Russian discussion boards and you might be shocked. Some discussion boards have a lot more guest members than RWD but that's probably attributed to these sites in paying a pretty penny to be listed on search engines. Dan the RWD is gaining it's membership from word of mouth, experienced guys are telling new guys, new guys are hearing from other sources. This is how the RWD is gaining it's membership, not from advertising on select search engines. So Dan what this is leading to is the fact that RWD has allowed good, open debate amongst agencies. Their are Russian Discussion boards who do NOT allow agency owners to talk about other agency owners and many times it is these very agency owners are on the front line, they see and learn of scam a lot more often and quicker than the average Joe.

I would hope you do not try to restrict agency owners from having open debates about aspects of their business. By restricting such reports you could unknowingly be allowing the possibilities of a scam agency to proceed in business and giving them some type of shelter. I once experienced such censorship by reporting a scam (which could be proven) by one of the larger social agencies only to have the post completely deleted. It's very frustrating in trying to help others by reporting discovered and proven scams only to have such reports hidden and censored from it's members.

In the RWD scammer section I reported under Scam 101 several agencies who were behind scams. On some Russian discussion boards I would not be allowed to post such. I have always been glad that I have been allowed to post such scams or suspect scams. I am willing to stand behind my reports and findings as I am sure Marc is willing to do, or Kevin Hayes, or Richard. It is one of the many RWD strong points that allows agency owners to discuss scams by other agencies when you have other Russian discussion boards who will not allow such.

I hope your locking down of the thread in discussion is not a sign that agency owners are not allowed to discuss scams they have found and can prove of other agencies.  Or could Marc have posted this in the Anything Goes link and it not been locked down?

To a degree I can see and respect where you are coming from but what did it hurt for Marc to discuss this with Richard?  What was it hurting? Why was it wrong to not allow Marc and Richard to discuss this in the public forum? Why should they take it to private e-mails when I think many would be interested in what happened.

[Admin]

I don't want agencies pissing on one another's boots - and using RWD as a forum for their public pissing match. [Pardon the coarse language - used to make a point]

That sort of thing, IMO, is best-handled off-line where the two parties are more likely to seek a resolution.

So long as they feel they can gain some advantage in the 'court of public opinion' (that being RWD, in this case) - they have no incentive to resolve their issues.

Jack (et al), it is my belief, based on a lengthy and bloody (figuratively-speaking) series of legal battles, that the only time someone comes into a public forum to raise an issue against someone else is when they want to cause the other harm - NOT when they are sincerely seeking a solution. Solutions and reconciliations are worked out in the confines of private exchanges where both sides are genuinely willing and interested in finding common ground.

Couple that with the fact that a virtual 'shouting match' publically-displayed on RWD benefits the board members not at all - and I think you can see why I locked the thread.

Oh - one more rather practical matter. To allow these sorts of disputes to surface and gain momentum on RWD would mean that either, (a) they would be left to spiral out of control until the likely find their way to the RWD garbage heap (NHB section), or (b) would presume that some arbiter on RWD would act in the capacity of determining what is evidence - what is truth - and who, what, and how all that would be presented. Otherwise - there is simply NO PROVING a point - one way or the other. I do not have the time, nor the inclination, nor probably the impartiality to act in that capacity, hence, the presentation of allegations can never be proved or disproved. Those kinds of things simply do NOT belong here on RWD.

- Dan

[Rvrwind]

Jack...To a degree I have to agree with Dan on this one. I understand where you are coming from but I also know full well that my reply to Marcs last post would have put him over the deep end.

The problem, especially between Marc & I is that we know each other rather well. We know what buttons to push & how to push them. I could more than he turn it into an all out open war which I agree with Dan, benifits nobody. I did send him an e mail in response to his last post which I know is going to put him off the deep end & better that should not be on RWD. As it is he mentioned a couple of things that were private between myself & the other party he mentioned & was even told by the other party it was none of his buisness & to keep his big mouth shut, but if you know Marc as I do, you know that ain't going to happen.

So as I explained to Dan in my PM although it would have been nice to have a rebuttle on the open forum to his unfounded accusations, it is probably best that it was locked, if not for Marc or myself but for the sanity of the rest of the members who will only see us accusing each other & none being able to know the real truth. Those who know me & have seen me in action & know Marc & seen him in action, well, they can pretty much figure it out from there. The rest don't need to be berated with it.

However in the case of reporting on a agency that is an outright scam & having proof to back up any statements made, on that subject I have to agree with you, it should be allowed. However that was not where our little tet a tet was going, so best to stop it before it spreads like a virus.

JMHO

RVR-Canadian Cowboy/Agency Owner

[Jack]

Hello Richard (and Marc, Dan, others), I just caught the tail-end as to what was being posted and couldn't believe, ..no, let me re-phrase that, ....didn't want to believe what was being written and claimed. I for one wanted to know how much, if any, was true. And to me, and I guess here is where I differ from Dan, I found the whole topic interesting and think a great many others would have found such reading interesting.
 

[catzenmouse]

Since the other thread closed I will answer here.

My first problem with this was the poster cannot speak English. The  posts are very hard to read with the grammar and spelling errors. Yes,  I cannot spell at all and this board's spell check does not work with  my Firefox browser but c'mon those posts were terrible!

This is supposed to be a business owner who is a professional?

Second problem is that none of the questions that I asked were answered or aknowledged for that matter.

Don't have intimate knowledge of the details here and now don't really  care. Yes, Dan a pissing match is not valuable to this forum but there  are people accusing you of censoring all of thier posts on this forum  saying that another member here has complained to you and now you will  not let them post. (read this on another list) I started to begin a  topic about it but knew that you did not act in this way and that the  originator of this lie would start a hissy fit about it.

I think the truth of this matter would be beneficial to all involved here.

My dva roublee

Ken

[Admin]

I think the truth of this matter would be beneficial to all involved here.

My dva roublee

Ken

Hi Ken,

If I thought we stood some reasonable chance of getting to "the truth of the matter," I might be inclined to go along.

As it is, I could sense there would be nothing more than a downward spiral with no possible way of establishing the "truth" and a TON of vile spewed along the way.

How about we ask Marc and Richard to issue a JOINT statement of the outcome/resolution - IF they achieve one - and IF they BOTH wish. Would this at least offer some closure?

I really can't see doing much more than this.

- Dan

[acrzybear]

Hi Ken

If I thought we stood some reasonable chance of getting to "the truth of the matter," I might be inclined to go along.

As it is, I could sense there would be nothing more than a downward spiral with no possible way of establishing the "truth" and a TON of vile spewed along the way.

How about we ask Marc and Richard to issue a JOINT statement of the outcome/resolution - IF they achieve one - and IF they BOTH wish. Would this at least offer some closure?

I really can't see doing much more than this.

- Dan

[/quote]
  Personally I get enough drama in my life at work, the last thing I want to see is a pissing contest between two guys.   If I had an issue with someone I would contact them in private (by e-mail or phone) and deal with them one on one, not go public with others that really have no need to know my (our) business. 

  In my ten years of being in this career I have noticed that most conflicts are a result of three things

1) misunderstanding between the two parties

2) One of the parties doesn't feel as if they recieved the attention or results they wanted or payed for from the other.

3) There is a genuine grievance

 If I really cared about the problem between these two agencies I would contact the two parties involved.  So in my opinion Dan did the correct thing and shut down the useless thread since it would serve no purpose (educational or otherwise).  If anyone really wants to add drama to their life I'm sure you can catch the Jerry Springer show.  

[Admin]

What this topic demonstrates, is the balancing act RWD must play between offering the board members the benefit of scam and scammer awareness on the one hand - and the pragmatic difficulties associated with acting as an arbiter and 'tryer of fact' on the other hand.

There are some harsh realities. RWD is not, and never will be, equipped with the infrastructure and expertise to act in the capacity of an arbiter of disputes. It would be inappropriate and non-sequitor for RWD to position itself in such a capacity. It would be a Lose-Lose proposition.

The other harsh reality is many of us have posted on these boards long enough to know the personalities and temperaments involved. It is a near-certainty that a dispute of this sort left without an active arbiter would become a classic flamefest with insults and invective becoming the predominant characteristics.

Soooo . . . what you all are left with - like it or not - is my judgment about what I will allow and what I will not. It is just the nature of this particular beast.

I want to be sure you all are alerted and informed about legitimate scams and scammers.

I also want ALL posters on this board to be treated fairly and given the benefit of the doubt - and I want to protect RWD from situations where it cannot offer a genuine value to her membership.

This is merely to publicly acknowledge the constant balancing act, and that I offer no apology for making whatever decision I make. It is the best I can do with what I have available at the time.

I really *am* trying to serve the best interests of the board guys, and I am trying to be transparent in nearly all of what I do.

FWIW

- Dan

[Jack]

Dan, again let me repeat,........

 

you have, and continue to do, a wonderful job in providing the men who are in the pursuit for a Russian bride an open and honest forum to learn and ask questions. You have also provided a wonderful media for the guys who have found a good Russian woman to seek advice and help as they go forward with their new and hopeful long lasting relationship. As well you have provided a forum where some very seasoned and expereinced individuals can offer their "clueless bat"  (jb)  without having to worry about getting banned, pissing off new guys or scaring them away from potential advertisors.


 

[acrzybear]

This is merely to publicly acknowledge the constant balancing act, and that I offer no apology for making whatever decision I make. It is the best I can do with what I have available at the time.

I really *am* trying to serve the best interests of the board guys, and I am trying to be transparent in nearly all of what I do.

FWIW

- Dan

Dan

 Perhaps your new board name should be "King Solomon" .  At least one of the board members thinks you're doing a good job of balancing the issues with this dysfunctional family:D  People forget that this is ultimately your board and if you wanted to you could shut it down tomorrow with no explanation. 

 

[BC]

I think that the value of individual posters' experiences (even the 'clueless bats') far outweigh ANY reports or beliefs expressed by ANY agency owner..

Let's face it business owners are not here for entertainment purposes no matter what they say or think.

As much as I despise locked, deleted or altered posts Dan has my 'carte blanche' when it comes to dealing with posts from agency owners.

[Aleksia]

I agree with Dan here and I think this is not the place to discuss disagreements. It's possible to tell everything, but it will not be, necessary the truth. One thing to discuss something what might be interesting for men who are looking for their soul mates and need information, another things is internal disputes between agencies. Believe me; usually it ends with nothing good and never with the relief of truth.

 

[Bruno]

Let's face it business owners are not here for entertainment purposes no matter what they say or think.

Wrong... my site is my hobby... and these forum is the fun part of it... of course, i can be the exception who confirm the rule... but since that i know several other exception ( not present here )... it is not more a exception

 

[BC]

Bruno,

Albeit your site does not reap huge monetary gains, but you do somehow profit nonetheless. Your 'reward' is simply measured in other terms.

Don't get me wrong.. I kinda like and sometimes even admire your unique approach but I still don't think even your unique status should afford immunity or blanket exceptions from Dan the Man.

I've seen plenty of 'plugs' in your posts too..

[Aleksia]

Code: [Select]

Let's face it business owners are not here for entertainment purposes no matter what they say or think.[/size]

I am not going to tell about all agencies, but as I am the one as well, I will tell for myself.

I came here by chance, when it was a discussion about my agency. I am still here.

Sometimes I am writing here if I have anything "smart" to add to discussion.

If not - I am just reading, without posting.

So, I think it's wrong to assume that if an agency participating on any forum; it's always for the profit or some other "wrong reasons".

 

[andrewfi]

BC ~ Don't forget, Bruno makes significant income from his affiliate links as well... It is hard to argue that one is not promoting one's business interests, even if it is at the same time fun.

(I always hope to enjoy my business! Time to sell up and move on if the fun goes away!)

[jb]

I'm in agreement with BC and Andrew here.  By posting here as an  ongoing strategy, an agency owner keeps his (or her) name in front of a  lot of people who are the prime target audience for the subtle litttle  adverts they are able to work into a few posts in every thread.   (Can anyone remember a thread that Bruno hasn't posted to?)

At least Richard has been up front about his desires in this regard, I  recall his post where he admitted he's rather not post on RWG, but felt  he had no choice.  I suspect Bruno will sooner or later be  enrolling there and posting away.   Especially when he  discovers how "agency friendly" the RWG is compared to the RWD.   Does anyone else remember when Doc Woody was the owner of LTP?  It  is my distinct recollection that Tver was on the lips of everyone at  RWG for at least a couple of years, and the Witchdoctor's agency reaped  huge rewards for his association with the board.  In fact, if I  recall correctly, Richard made his first trip to Russia as a "guest" of  LTP.

It just makes good sense for agencies to maintain a presence on the  boards and I don't have a problem with that as long as newbies are made  aware that the possibility for recuitment is always lurking in the  background.  All they hope for is the chance to have the shopper  click on a link and view their wares.  As for agency owners  dispensing advice to the bereft of love, that should be banned, IMHO, I would  suggest no one take advice from someone who has an agenda in the business.

[BC]

Aleksia,

Don't get me wrong.. I'm not saying that you or other agency owners should not be here.  I'm sure that as an agency owner and especially as a woman you do have valuable views to contribute... I personally prefer the latter though

As you state, it was client/agency 'business' though that brought you here.. but that's quite ok.  It's the agency/agency stuff that causes real problems and distracts from the purpose of the board.

[Bruno]

As for agency owners dispensing advice to the bereft of love, that should be banned, IMHO, I would suggest no one take advice from someone who has an agenda in the business.

... banned the advice from agency !!! Do you think that only your point of view is the true one ?

I am a guy like everybody, who search a soulmate... running my agency have allow me to know that some other agency have dirty agenda... but some are honest business... Agency are in contact with the two side ( men and women ), see thing that you can only suspect, have problem with scammer on a daily base... they have a lot of experience that they can share with other...

In any case, if customer use more time for read advice on agency site in place to direct browse catalogue and seek sexy babe, then these forum will have fewer bad story... only a few visitor each month ( on more that 100 unique IP day ) visit my advice section... they jump directly to the catalogue... and cry later when they know some problem... Who is responsible ? The agency or the customer who have not read the advice of agency ?

On almost all marriage agency site, you can read "never send money before a personal meeting"... how much men read and follow these advice... how much men are scammed because they are too lazy for read some text...

And of course, after beeing scammed, they join some forum where they critic the agency...

[Leslie]

Dan

I think you have made a good moderation call in this case. 

There are two distinct forms of agency discussion. 

The first involves CUSTOMERS.  I hope you will allow agency discussions which are raised by customers (Not obvious schills!) and allow the agency owners to respond (or not).

The second type of discussion/arguement is between agencies. I agree with you.  This does not belong on the board.  I know Jack will be unhappy that he can't reveal the latest poop on another agencies dubious business practices but this info should be revealed by a CUSTOMER not by a competitor.... 

I don't know what it is about LTP and it's various owners but they have always washed their dirty linen in public?!?  I for one am NOT interested in the arcane politics and business dealings of the Tver agencies. I am happy to leave that esoteric specialized knowledge to the people involved.....

 

 

[jb]

Bruno,

Can you not read?

I don't think anyone listens to your advice anyway, your constantantly  reminding everyone of your own failed 5 year RW marriage is enough to  scare anybody off.  You could only advise how not  to go about this marriage thing.  However, many agencies set  themselves up as marriage experts and dispense advice on just about  everything under the sun, how to meet and greet, how to behave under  any set of circumstances, how to choose good women over bad, etc.   They devote whole web sites to the topics we discuss here everyday.    It is those types of agency that I was referring to, following  the advice of those folks should be avoided at all costs.  Since  these agencies have a vested interest in selling flesh, I suggest no  one take to heart the advice of anyone who has an agenda, or makes  money from the MOB industry.  It is in their own best interest in  keeping newbies stupid.  The results should be obvious.

[Aleksia]

Jb, did I understand you correctly - if the agency is giving an advice, it's a bad idea to listen to this advice? Or I misunderstood something here?

[Jack]

No Alessia, you must read jb's words carefully. He wrote ...
 
..........." agencies (that) set themselves up as marriage experts and dispense advice on just about everything under the sun, how to meet and greet, how to behave under any set of circumstances, how to choose good women over bad, etc.  (agencies that)  devote whole web sites to the topics we discuss here everyday.   It is those types of agency that I was referring to........
 
 
So Aleksia as you can see it is only a certain type agency he is referring to. jb was not referring to all agencies, just these certain types.
 

[Bruno]

I don't think anyone listens to your advice anyway, your constantantly reminding everyone of your own failed 5 year RW marriage is enough to scare anybody off. 

Do you have hear about "Trial and error"... it is a methode for obtaining knowledge...

Yes, i have a failed marriage... but who have not a failed relation in his life... and people with failed relation have some "know-how" that they can share with other. They can help other to find the right way and not fall in the same hole. Have you never make some mistake in your life and learn from these mistake...

You don't like agency but you have never use them... on what is based your personal experience about agency...

And yes, few listen to my advice writen on my site, people are too lazy for use time for read... it is why i post here... where people are ready to use some time for learn and find his own personal way in the finding of a wife...  and here, i am sure that some follow partialy my advice ( post ).

[Bruno]

As for agency owners dispensing advice to the bereft of love, that should be banned, IMHO, I would suggest no one take advice from someone who has an agenda in the business.