Evaluating an agency website

[Bruce]

The reality is many of you in the "seeking" part of the "process" may meet your RW through friends, some surreptitiously while on business in the FSU, some while on vacation, some after hiring a guide and interpreter while travelling in the FSU.   This thread does not apply to you.

If you are interested in meeting a RW and plan to use marriage agency help then this thread is for you.  I wish there was a thread when I was seeking in 1999 that gave me some guidance how to navigate the websites.  Then again, at that time there were the big three, alot of catalogs, LTP, Spivak's site and some other agencies with websites.  Now there are so many websites and agencies with so many permutations and combinations I am sure alot of you "seeking" can spend hours reading and looking on websites.  

By looking at a website one should be quickly able to tell a good agency from a bad agency.  One should be able to tell alot about the operation and people behind the agency.

You should ask yourself some basic questions when you look at a website:

1.  What am I getting when I spend my dollars with such and such agency.  What is their business model?  Is the deal a full service one or one where you could use ala-carte services?

2.   Do they have any girls on their website?  If they have few, how would they help me meet my potential wife?  If they have many, do they really know the girls they have listed?  Do they have alot of pretty photos?  Are the girls on their website real women that are actively looking for a foreign husband?  Is it a mix of pretty and plain girls?  Does the site look real?  Are the girls spead all over the FSU or concentrated in one region or city?

3.  Do they have alot of girls with children?   What are the age ranges of the girls?

4.  Are you going to X city / cities and meeting lots of girls in discos or other "party" situations?  

5.  How many years / months / days has a girl listed with their agency?   How often does the agency check on the status of the girls listed on their website?

6.  Does the agency have former clients, preferably married clients to tell you how the particular agency works?

7.  How new or old is the agency?  Whom are the people behind it and are they credible?   Is the agency owned and operated by Americans / Canadians / Europeans or is it solely operated by individuals in the FSU?

 

Now, once you answered the questions after looking at a site, you should think about how you would best approach meeting your other half in the FSU.  Do you really think you could meet your wife on a tour these days?  Do you need alot of help in the FSU, from getting your visa to travel, to lodging, to planning every aspect of your trip?   I believe the average guy needs alot of help at a minimum for the first three times he goes to the FSU, and if their available time is short, they need professional help every time they go to the FSU to maximize their time meeting and interacting with girls.  The culture, language and societal norms are just too different, too subtle and too overwhelming for the average American on vacation.  I believe this applies to the average European, but I do not know this group as well as my fellow Americans. 

Now, for my take on how to evaluate a website:

1.  There are free websites out there, but increasingly agencies place photos of girls on these sites.  When you write the girl, you end up dealing with an agency or worse yet, a scammer.   So, you may churn alot of time separating the wheat from the chaf on those sites, though for the WOVO (write one visit one) type out there I believe it still is possible to meet your other half this way.  I believe in write none, visit many (WNVM) or write a bunch with a letter of introduction, saying you will be in their city on such a such date and showing up in a target rich environment using the help of a full service agency - but that is the approach that best fit my schedule and personality. 

2.  If a site has alot of pretty girls from all over the FSU, watch out.  They for sure do not know their girls and there probably is alot of scamming women listed, if not a completely scamming agency you are viewing.  In any event, at best the agency does not know the girls and therefore can not best help you meet your potential wife.

3.  If you see a site that is professionally done, which offers the services you want, has numbers you can call to speak with live individuals who can answer your questions - then you are in the right direction.  I believe a good agency will have alot of girls, both pretty and not as pretty with the majority of the pretty girls over 22 having a child or two.  Chances are you should not be even looking at girls younger than 23 if you are the average guy searching anyway.  If you are looking for a girl without a child your choices for the girls you will find extremely pretty should be rather slim!

I hope this and other posters help you frame the approach that best fits your personality when you invariably look at the marriage agency websites out there in cyberspace!

 

[Jack]

Excellent things for new guys to consider hockyguy.  Good post.

[Leslie]

Great Post Bruce

Far too many guys just dabble.  You know send a few e-mails

Some of them to Fat Yuri :huh:

Never make the trip...

If you want to establish a friendship by writing first (WOVO or the variants)  then my advice would be to stick with women who speak/write some English and have their own e-mail account.  The free sites are the best option though you will have to open lots of scammer e-mail to find a good woman.  Agencies are a bad option for this approach.  The major revenue stream is from translated e-mails.  Very, very few decent FSU women will write an intimate letter knowing that it will be read and translated by strangers....

If you decide to use an agency then Bruce's advice is spot on.  Be realistic how much help will you need?  First trips likely a LOT, so one of the reputable full service agencies are a good choice.  Several post here.  This is very sage advice -

"I believe in write none, visit many (WNVM) or write a bunch with a letter of introduction, saying you will be in their city on such a such date and showing up in a target rich environment using the help of a full service agency - but that is the approach that best fit my schedule and personality. "

Remember a visit many trip is organized to a destination.  Not to vist 3 or 4 women who you have struck up a WOVO type friendship with.  You need to visit each of these women on their own.  Trying to date these women at the same time WONT work.  They will find you out and your ass will be toast

Once you know your way around (you can navigate Boryspol - Speak enough Russian to buy a train ticket or rent an apartment)  Then applying Bruces approach but with the small locally owned agencies in the regional cities is a very good option.  If you need a bit of help, Jack can provide it.  By now you will also understand/speak some Russian and understand the culture better.  You will have the experience to make wise decisions.

The best bit of advice I can offer is NOT TO HURRY.

Take your time finding your wife.  It will take several trips and cost a lot of money.  Plan on $25K for the search phase.  The costs escalate as you continue.  Plan for $50K to bring your fiance here, get married, update your living conditions and get your wife aclimated.  If you have a child together it will get seriously expensive! 

Divorce is always expensive (even with a prenup ) 

Divorce after you have had a child together  :hairraising:


So take your time finding the right woman.  Enjoy the search.  I certainly did :cool:

 

 

 

[al-c]

May I offer some comments?  As some of you may know from reading my other posts, I have been there twice and was engaged to a RW, only to have it explode 3 days before her interview over a cultural misunderstanding.  And I have been doing this now for 2 1/2 years.  So I have a little knowledge on what does and does not work.

A sincere lady will be overwhelmingly impressed that you are going there just for her.  This is, of course, quite risky because if she is not sincere, you waste your entire trip.  I took that risk both times.  The first one resulted in a sincere lady who was overwhelmingly impressed, and the second was with an insincere lady who wasted my trip.  So I am batting .500 going about it this way.

Are you up to the gamble?  Or do you want to play it safe and meet mulitple women?  They won't be turned off if you go the multi-route since they expect that; they just won't be overwhelmingly turned on.

As for an agency translator reading your letters and being privy to your personal and intimate conversation, that is not really much of a problem.  The two translators I dealt with were consummate professionals who knew how to make you feel comforatable with them and how to make themselves as invisible as possible.

I have gone the route with both a large agency (EM to be specific) and small ones too.  I find lots of chaffe at EM, not surprisingly, but I also find lots of it at the small ones too.  I suppose the one thing you get at a small one is fewer scammers since the small ones monitor the ladies' conduct.  But it is still up to YOU to connect with your lady.  No agency, big or small, is going to do that for you.

All of the sites I visited had testimonials from happily married former clients.  After all, there will be successes everywhere.  But that tells you nothing about the % of successes.  Certainly you are not going to read about the ones that committed adultery the minute they got into the U.S,, nor do I suspect that the agency I found my former fiance through is going to advertise how an engagement can fall apart 3 days before the finish line over a cultural clash.

Don't be too worried over the ones who charge you per translated letter.  It really does not cost all that much.  I spent much more on Elena's Models than I ever did on the per-letter agencies, even though EM works purely on a flat fee.

One more comment:  If you were never there, ESPECIALLY if you don't speak Russian, pay the agency to pick you up at the airport, take you to the hotel, and introduce you to to the lady or ladies you are there to see.  If you look like a lost puppy, and you will be if you can't even instruct a cab driver which hotel to drive you to, you will be seen as a weak and aimless man by the very ladies you are there to impress.


 

[Leslie]

Well Al,

I lived in NYC for several years so lets be direct about this :cool:

Your relationship exploded over a cultural misunderstanding??

Sounds to me like you and your fiance did not know each other too well

I am guessing here but I reckon you don't speak Russian and your Fiance did not speak English very well...

This is a fallacy

"As for an agency translator reading your letters and being privy to your personal and intimate conversation, that is not really much of a problem.  The two translators I dealt with were consummate professionals who knew how to make you feel comforatable with them and how to make themselves as invisible as possible."

Communication through a translator is second hand.  Do you know what is being said?  When I first learnt Russian I played dumb.  Pretended I could not understand a single word.  I was very fewkin surprised at what was sometimes said right there in front of me.... 

Three is a crowd.  How do you get intimate with an interpreter?  Three in a bed

Success depends on communication.  JB has been saying this for years and he is RIGHT!

If you don't speak Russian ONLY date girls who speak some English.  If you are serious about this learn Russian.  You will HAVE to do this eventually.  So why not start now?

I wish you well in your search.  Please don't take this as a personal affront but if you offer advice to others on this board you must expect comment

 

 


 

[Marc Dayton]

When I first learnt Russian I played dumb.  Pretended I could not understand a single word.  I was very fewkin surprised at what was sometimes said right there in front of me.... 

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I have a question for you when you first learn Russian did you understand everthing or were you also gessing at some of it? gessing is a guide to 100% fail by for men or RW I have sees this many times in the past.

Gessing allways leads to big problems

 

[al-c]

Well Al,

I lived in NYC for several years so lets be direct about this :cool:

Your relationship exploded over a cultural misunderstanding??

Sounds to me like you and your fiance did not know each other too well

I am guessing here but I reckon you don't speak Russian and your Fiance did not speak English very well...

This is a fallacy

"As for an agency translator reading your letters and being privy to your personal and intimate conversation, that is not really much of a problem.  The two translators I dealt with were consummate professionals who knew how to make you feel comforatable with them and how to make themselves as invisible as possible."

Communication through a translator is second hand.  Do you know what is being said?  When I first learnt Russian I played dumb.  Pretended I could not understand a single word.  I was very fewkin surprised at what was sometimes said right there in front of me.... 

Three is a crowd.  How do you get intimate with an interpreter?  Three in a bed

Success depends on communication.  JB has been saying this for years and he is RIGHT!

If you don't speak Russian ONLY date girls who speak some English.  If you are serious about this learn Russian.  You will HAVE to do this eventually.  So why not start now?

I wish you well in your search.  Please don't take this as a personal affront but if you offer advice to others on this board you must expect comment

 

 


 

No affront taken.  My comments are never above criticism, and you make some valid points that are well taken.  But I can assure you that I did not require the interpreter in bed, and while I am sure there are shady interpreters working for shady agencies who will distort what is said to benefit their crooked employters, that was not the case here.  The interpreters earned my trust the same way everyone else earns it.

The cultural misunderstanding was not a result of us not knowing each other well; it was a result of us not understanding how our actions would be taken in the context of each other's cultures.  That was why it was a cultural misunderstanding and not a personal one.

She knew some English, but not a great deal of it; however she was taking English lessons.  I told her, and she agreed, that she needed to learn my language and not vice versa since it would be the language of her new country.

We only had the interpreter for three days.  For the last 4 days, we were on our own.  Phrasebooks, electronic translators, body and hand language, and lots of patience can work wonders, and they did.

So no, I don't subscribe to the theory that if she does not know English, I need to know Russian.  I would love to debate this with you and anyone else who cares to join in, and maybe we can all learn some new truths from it.

 

[jb]

So no, I don't subscribe to the theory that if she does not know  English, I need to know Russian.  I would love to debate this with  you and anyone else who cares to join in, and maybe we can all learn  some new truths from it.

Al-C, I don't know if it's a debatable subject or not, to me it's  axiomatic, what you've written above is a perfect example of "little  head" thinking.  Almost anyone can convey the language of sex  without words, and I'm sure you did just dandy in bed without knowing  Russian since that's more a question of pushing the right buttons  rather than real communication.  The point that I've tried to get  across about the need to speak a common language goes a bit deeper than  exploring physical compatability.  I have said, and I still  believe it, a marriage is, or should be, built upon more than  superficial physical attraction.  Any normal sized man can  successfully engage in sex with any normally built woman, that goes  without saying.  However, it is the mental, and emotional state of  mind, how a person feels about friends, family, kids, hobbies,  education, and even political and religious beliefs and a whole host of  other aspects that make up the personality.  These are areas of  compatability you cannot explore without a better mode of  common-speak.  Of course you may say these things are not  important to you, you are not a religious or political person, you are  ambivilant about kids, etc.,  but how do you determine these  things are not important to her?  If that were the case, there'd  be no reason for either of you to ever learn a second language since  you'd never have anything to talk about anyway, but I suspect that's  not the case.

I hate to keep bringing up Maxx as an example, but he's always a  perfect example of the problem.  Without having a common language,  he managed to marry a mental case, that's right, she was as crazy as a  loon.  However, she knew the keywords and what was required of  her,  he'd walk into the bedroom and call her "Darlin'", and she  would give him sex, ( that is always a great yardstick for measuring  compatability don't you think?)  The problems associated with her  mental instability was further exacerbated by the agency, which had a  money agenda, not a  'happy married couple' agenda.  Poor old  Maxx, not understanding a word of Russian, never got a clue until his  crazy bride hit the States, he had relied too heavily on the agency and  the terp.

Not an enviable position to be in, IMHO.

[Leslie]

Ok Al,

I will debate with you.  You have been to FSU twice from what you have posted.   One trip was a failure, the second (a week of face time?)  resulted in you filing for a K1 which ended 3 days before interview on a "cultural misunderstanding"

Then you say -

"We only had the interpreter for three days.  For the last 4 days, we were on our own.  Phrasebooks, electronic translators, body and hand language, and lots of patience can work wonders, and they did.

So no, I don't subscribe to the theory that if she does not know English, I need to know Russian.  I would love to debate this with you and anyone else who cares to join in, and maybe we can all learn some new truths from it."

Well sounds to me like you posted a K1 for a virtual stranger. 

Rushing into this is just about the worst thing you can do. Tell me would you contact an American woman on Yahoo, visit her for a week in Houston and then marry in Vegas?  There is way more chance of success in this case because you share  language and culture.  If you did this I bet your friends would try to restrain you and worry about your sanity.......

There is a very much smaller chance of success for this strategy with an FSU woman.  I think you understand this now.  Contemplating marriage to a woman who you cannot talk to is an ABSURD notion.  Don't believe the agency hype.  They cannot help you "pick a puppy" on your annual vacation.   Success requires far more time and effort.  The truth is that building a good marriage to an FSU woman is more difficult than with a woman from your own culture!

Building a lasting relationship REQUIRES communication.  If this woman had come to the USA you would have found this out in your first year of marriage!  When I met my wife my Russian was better than her English (It is the other way around now - by a long way)  but we had a LOT of problems.  Oh and we spent 4 months living together in Ukraine before we came back to UK....

PS Mark my understanding of spoken Russian is by no means perfect but it is certainly as good as your written English

 

[Marc Dayton]

PS Mark my understanding of spoken Russian is by no means perfect but it is certainly as good as your written English

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Yes my written English sucks add to that I type with two fingers and you have one big mess with my post. I only asked about your Russian for one reason living in Tver for almost two years I have seen many RW do just what your talking about play dumb they know some English so they sit back and here part of what your saying in English. Then what they don't understand becomes one big miss understanding then add to that the "cultural misunderstanding" and what do you get?

You get to dust off your back side off, and start over! Newbes a game of any kind by man or woman is just that a game what might work for one person dose not work for all.

There are a lot of agencies out there that will do as posted above, and some my even try other low life things so keep this in mind when your looking at any agency if an agency will scam you the agency will not stop anyone that works for that agency from scamming you, and if the Interputers are scamming you then they will help the RW scam you.

So if you use an agency with a bad name then you put your self in the bed you sleep in there is no such thing as a good half honest agency!!!

P.S. you two can help I am posting A Russian Womans Guide for Newbes here on the RWD I would love your help as a big part of it is on the pro's and cons of all types of agency ? also as I get all of it posted there is a part that will be advice on how to understand the Russian office, and how to get the most out of them on your trip.

[anono]

hi les, reading your post helps me to validate i am doing the right thing. i'm living here, will start taking russian lessons in the spring and will take my time until and if i feel i have a level of communication and understanding with yuliya before i ever start thinking about marriage. i have had some very good discussion with her when i take my time and get creative in ways of expressing myself. she agrees and says she wants to "know all". she will not say "hello" to my mother on the phone, later explaining that she wants to be able to talk to her. she does not want my mother to think she is stupid or we are unable to communicate.

i'm in no hurry and neither is she. she has no desire whatsoever to go to the USA. she says as long as we are together marriage does not matter. she knows i have never been married and i really do not have a strong desire.

we will work out everything here before even thinking of marriage. the only thing i see in going to the US is if we want to travel. a US passport sure comes in handy.

i am just extremely fortunate that i have been able to pull this off, so far

[tim 360]

Leslie has definitely cut to the meat of the matter.  Why on earth would any sane man spend 4-7 days with a woman and then decide to marry her.  It does not make good sense here or there.  Anywhere.  Even if the language and cultures were exactly the same it would be either nuts or desperate.  No?  how about this:

Over a 2 month period I exchange emails with a girl living only 3000 miles away.  Not 6000 or 8000.  She lives in San Diego, CA.  During our little "correspondence" I am very interested in meeting this girl.  I book a flight.

One little catch is that she speaks a foreign language,  knows very little English and is from a different culture and a translator handles our letters.  Then after spending 6 days with her we go to Vegas and get married.  There is absolutely no foundation for this marriage to be a successful one.  There is not even rudimentary communication.  I would have to claim temporary insanity.

Why?  Because I don't know her at all.  Or she,  me.

Women are women and communication is near the very top of the list of their needs.  Do Rw's need to communicate with their mate?  Thats just the beginning....ya gotta have communication as you begin to know each other.

With RW's,  many men get this "suspension of disbelief" which lowers the skepticism and accuity of their very own scrupples.  Some is inspired by agency agiprop and some is created by the very guy himself.

Few guys would marry any woman in the USA after being with them for a few days or a week.  Whether they spoke English or not.  Whether there were cultural differences or not.

So why rush the "getting to know you" process for FSU women???  If the reason is really time and $$$?  You could lose alot of both in the long run. 

 

 

[andrewfi]

From what I read here and elsewhere, I have come to the conclusion that there is a substantial body of men who do not want to be able to communicate with their wives/women/people in general. This is clearly a social problem, but marrying a woman who can not speak the man's native language provides perfect cover for this aberration. He can feel himslef normal. After all, he is a part of a community of guys who are seeking wives from a different country and culture. I imagine that in Vietnamese, Phillipino, Nigerian etc MOB cirlces there are plenty of the same type of guys to be found.

Given such circumstances, it seems not unreasonable to make choices about marriage very fast; without full communication how long does it take to make a choice? No need to talk about attitudes, ethics, kids... Just find a tractible warm body with a pretty face and there yer go! Job done!

[jb]

[size="3"]
When a man is in the beginnings of a relationship he needs to be  attentive to the personality traits he finds attractive or repulsive,  at the first indication that a woman is not what he's looking for, he  should move on.   I'm sure back in your younger days when you  all were dating AW, everyone did exactly that.  You met a girl at  a party, (the best place to meet single women was at weddings), or  wherever, and you were most interested in getting into her knickers at  first, but over time you had a chance to observe her character.   Usually you tried to get a few drinks into her because you knew, "in  vino veritas", that's when you got a true glimpse into what kind of  woman you were chasing.  With FSUW in long distance relationships  you don't have the opportunity to closely observe the woman under  normal circumstances, that's why long letter writing campaigns don't  work.  Remember, a letter is just a piece of paper, (or a blank  computer screen), it will hold itself very still and allow you to write  anything you want to on it.  Just because you have a nice romantic  letter from some unknown entity across the oceans doesn't mean you have  stumbled up on a perfect woman. 

This is also the reason why so many one week wonder K-1's go south.   You can spent countless hours and dollars drafting a zillion letters to be translated, you can spend  yourself into the poor house with 3-way phone calls with bad  connections to girls with broken English and still not have a clue as  to what her personality is like and what she's looking for in a  mate.  If you think that just because she's pretty she's going to  be easy to live with, or she will continue to be compliant and sweet, you know nothing  about women~!   Women are approaching marriage from a very different angle than men  are, they are sure that once married they can change the man into what  they desire, while a man would be perfectly happy if the woman never  changed one iota.  Women who marry badly are usually referred to  as "naggers" because they cannot change the man fast enough to suit  their wants, and it is a miserable existance for the stupid male who  didn't see the signs of a bad marriage ahead.

So,,, all you guys who are opposed to making more than one trip and  want to rely entirely on the services of a MOB agency, you can write  all the letters you want, make all the 3-way phone calls you can  afford, and when your lady arrives, you've still bought a pig in a  poke. You still don't know her any better than the day you wrote that  first letter.[/size]

[RacerX]

When I first learnt Russian I played dumb.

This is probably good as advice as any I have read.  Sorry, but other than occasional chatting about the weather/food, you are not going to be able to engage in any meaningful personal/intimate conversation unless you are quite fluent in the language.  As Marc wisely points out, the chance for misinterpretation and then the subsequent "disaster" is magnified when amateurs are involved.

With regard to the girl knowing English - well I have a totally opposite view.  There are basically three ways a girl gets to know good English : 1. It's required in her work, 2. It's a hobby for her, but most likely, 3. She is an "agency girl."  Statistically 1 & 2 aren't going to be of much impact, so in my estimation you are left with 3.

If you want to seek out girls who main preoccupation is snaring WM, then by all means insist they know English, especially sexual innuendo that will rapidly advance your agenda along.

OTOH, if you actually believe there are still "traditional" girls remaining in the FSU, then almost for certain, they will NOT speak English and you will need professional help.  Although I am in compete agreement that  this kind of relationship is going to take many months if not years to bring to fruition.  Other than utter fools, no one should bring a girl here unless her English is good enough to allow her to navigate Western life, but this need not, or should not be the sole criterion for your initial selection.

Maybe we are all saying the same thing, but I didn't read it that way.[/font]

 
[/size][/font]

[tim 360]

The very reason that agencies agiprop puts so much stress upon letter writing is because this is very good year round revenue for them.  Good for all seasons.   Good when only a couple guys per week are showing up.  Excellent revenue which is why they stress it.  The bucks for them is not in you coming over....its for you (and many other guys worldwide)  to continue to write and pay and pay and write.  And frequently.  Some of the more unsavory ones don't even need the girl to write a word since translators are on staff to create the letters...it is a form of helping the "girl".  And a catalog of canned letters and paragraphs to select from. 

I am not against letter writing,  but 5 or so exchanges should be more than enough of an introduction,  which really is all they are.....a form of introduction.  Then you meet and the sniff test continues.  And you get to know each other in real life.

And then you should be on your own in a very normal social situtation and things either click or they don't.  For each of you.

Probably a good idea to have a number of candidates with a 5 letter introduction.  Others may feel differently.  Real life is much different than letter writing. 

[tim 360]

In the larger cities (Kiev) Engish is offered to students in the 8th and 9th grades.  It is a course selection.  Some take it and some don't.  I have met about 6 Ukrainians who learned English in regular school.

[andrewfi]

RacerX ~

1) Unless you meet very dim girls, then most are taught English at school. Of course the older ones were not, but the girls most guys are chasing, yep, at school.

2) If you use an agency then guess what? They are agency girls, so what.

3) If a woman is planning to marry a guy from an English speaking country then only the dumbest will be under the impression that not learning English is a good idea. The degree to which she is fluent in English, or the rate at which she learns is a proxy for both her committment to the process (you) and her intellectual capacity. Learning a second language is not easy and requires both intellectual capacity and committment.

4) If you do not speak fluent Russian, HTH do you plan to communicate? Interrupters are good for business discussions, not for pitching woo!

5) Unless you live in the target country the only women you meet will be women who are already, to some degree or other involved in the process of finding a foreign guy. She may not be in an agency, right now, but life being as it is, if she is not open to the idea of relationships with foreign guys, you simply will not meet her. You will have no way of communicating with her and she will not come up to you to introduce herself.

Takeaway: If you are going to meet with a woman from the FSU then the sensible and committed ones will already be on the path toward fluency in the language of their preferred destination - they may just be beginning, but they will be on the path. If they are not, then you will either not meet them, or not be able to communicate.

[RacerX]

Andrew ~ I am not certain what your experience has been with using agencies (none I believe) but I know you have some knowledge of them, so I won't question your "credentials" any further.  But, as some points of clarification:

1.  Girls weren't taught English in school until fairly recently.  Few girls in their 30s will have had much in the way of formal English tutelage, and even for those that have, it's not much more than a class or two.  For example, I took French in my early school days, but can't speak more than a hand full of words.

It might be a sweeping generalization to say that most of the guys are looking for "school-girls."

2.  I am using "agency girls" in the more derogative sense. English- and street-wise girls such as these are also known as "pro-daters" and other less savory terms.

3. If this whole adventure is approached in a rational manner [pants fully-zippered, please] then after the initial meeting, where a mature, trusted interpreter is employed, your g/f can begin intensive, one-on-one English lessons.  Now here we agree completely - the rate she acquires proficiency is directly related to her motivation to communicate with you.  In my experience, she will absorb the language at an astounding rate, and within a few months you can then develop a rapport with her for use on following visits. This process will typically take up to a year.

And, yes, how do you locate these girls, whose English may be rudimentary or nonexistent.  That's the key: you need to find a RW (she may be a translator, a  wife's friend, a business associate, and so on) who can put you in touch with such women.  There are Russian-only agencies who cater to the domestic guys.  Some girls may have only loose associations with agencies: they may have supplied a biography and photo, but don't participate in the normal 'dating scene.'  Every agency owner I had met in the past had a few prized girls not normally circulated, that she might contact if the right guy came along.  Yeah, you have to make some contacts, or associate with people who already have these networks.

With millions of eligible FSU women, one need not restrict oneself to culling the often less desirable English-fluent ones, IMO.

[dorogoyroberto]

Hmmm. Lilya was first taught very basic English in Ukrainian schools as  a pre-teen in the mid-1980s. She did not study English in depth until  she attended college in Kharkov.

Roberto
Kiev, Ukraine

[andrewfi]

RacerX

I need make no claim of credentials... If I were to write something factually incorrect about an agency, I am sure that there would be howls of protest. Howls there are none. How and where that knowledge is acquired is my business, and of no concern to you.

As to languages. It was normal during Soviet times and later for students to be taught a second language at school. Normally kids start language studies in year five. There are commonly two languages available, these being English and German and Englsih is significantly more commonly taught, students generally chose just one. Most students would have studied for at least five years.

From IIRC the late 80's languages were a required part of university courses and one did not graduate without passing these courses, the requirements have tended to broaden over the years. Thus a person of almost any marriageable age would have studied English or German and younger and brighter people would have furthered their language studies in university. (Over one third of Russians have a university degree and about 40% have either a degree, or have studied and not completed.) So, there is a good chance that if your interlocutor is what you might describe as bright, that she will have some extra language studies.

Of course it could be that women in agencies are less bright and educated than the norm. I have no data on that, but do you want a dumb woman, from wherever? Also, of course, it would seem to make sense for a woman seeking a foreign man to learn the language of her target country, or refresh if she had no recent practice.

You might just want to check your facts, it might just help you to avoid confusion.

[jb]

Language is always a dilemma regardless of what foreign country you visit.

I recall trips to western Europe where English is very common, yet when  asking the butcher or baker a question in English will get you a blank  stare.  Yes, it is true these people studied English in school,  however, like most students, they studied just hard enough to pass the  exams and get a grade,,, promptly moving on and forgetting everything  they learned after that.

Unless a person is actively engaged in a job or profession where the  foreign language studied is actually used, as in my wife's case where  she worked for an oil company as a English language translator for nine  years, I doubt seriously if high school or college foreign language  studies will remain a viable skill.  However, those studies will  probably come in handy if a person later elects to emigrate to an  English speaking country.  Just don't expect miracles.

For example, when my wife first arrived, her English skills were in the  top range of 5 out of 5, yet she had great difficulty communicating  with the locals, accents were unfamiliar, and the local patois gave her  fits.  Her English grammer was of the text book style, and her  accent was British, these were two major strikes against her in south  Texas.  Although she was able to deal with store clerks and normal  conversation fairly quickly, it took a couple of years for all things  to finally fall into place.

If your lady is not the dim wit Andrew speaks of, and she's had some  formal training in English, she should pick it up very quickly if she  is motivated to do so.  I'm not advocating you dismiss a girl who  can't converse in English, I am however, advocating you not marry her  until she can at least get past "hello" and "goodbye".   Communication is terribly important, especially to a woman.  My  wife is a "talker", I tease her about the fact that her lips start  moving 30 minutes before she wakes up and don't stop moving until 30  minutes after she goes to sleep at night.  I've met a number of  very unhappy RWs who were extremely frustrated to the point of chucking  the marriage because they had trouble expressing themself to their  husbands and they had all sorts of very important things they wanted to  discuss with him.  To them it was like walking through life  wearing a pair of mental handcuffs.

Of course, YMMV.

[andrewfi]

jb - I agree entirely.

My post above was intended to correct a common misapprension that people in the FSU are not taught English. It is true that many are not fluent, even if they once were able to communicate, but few have not learned English at some point. As I noted somewhere else, possibly upthread, the progress made by a women toward, or past her previous ability is a good indicator of her committment as well as her intellect. I have ended a relationship that lasted for a couple of years becasue whilst the woman continually told me that she wanted to move abroad, she made absolutely no progress in learning English and our relationship remained at the lots of sex, lots of restaurants and pantomimed communication.

Given the givens, if a owman from the FSU told me that she had never been taught English, or another European language whilst at achool, I would make the safe assumption that she was either trying to kid me, or was somewhat 'remedial' in terms of her intellectual prowess and thus avoided the classes attended by her more generously endowed peers.

I would be happy to try to bolster the first woman's confidence, and thus ability, and would cheerfully leave the latter for the guys who do not need to have decent communications with their spouses.

On a more general note, Russian teaching of English, or indeed any second language was/is probably more general and extensive than in most of Western Europe. One significant difference though is the availability of English teachers. Many teachers of English in the FSU had themselves never been taught by a teacher with native level English skills and pronounciation, so kids could well be getting third generation pronounciation skills and first generation (from books) grammar and written skills.

[Rvrwind]

Actually I have found a great number of ladies of late & even a few men that know English. By knowing I would have to say it varies in knowledge & in scope.

For instance several ladies I know understand every word I say, but because they have never practiced speaking it are a little aprehensive to do so, but as Andrew so rightly points out & Mark as well, there are a great many who understand basic spoken English.

The other group is those who can read & write English & understand basic spoken English but cannot articulate very well in English.

The third group can Understand & speak English but reading & writing are a drawback.

You would be very surprised to find how many people in Russia understand English but cannot speak it. This is only because of lack of anybody to talk English to. Most learned it before university & some throughout university but never had the chance to practise.

When they do decide to hook up with a westerner, it doesn't take them long to figure it out & become very articulate in the English language.

RVR - Canadian Cowboy/Agency Owner

[RacerX]

Andrew ~ I fear your "facts" are faulty as is some of the advice you freely dispense.  I only questioned your knowledge of agencies because you have anointed yourself somewhat an expert on them with apparently no actual experience.  Kinda like a guy who claimed to have learned how to ride a bicycle by reading a book. 

Your knowledge of Soviet-era English education is also incorrect.  My wife was (make that is) a rather renowned physician from Moscow, yet she received only rudimentary English language training from the Soviet school system.  And although you like to chastise the men here for chasing school girls, she happens to be in her mid-30s.  She and her Father, also a rather famous Russian physicist, initially knew little English, but reflective of their intellect,  acquired an in depth ability after studying it for only a few months following our first meeting.

Rvrwind articulates and encapsulates the English-language situation quite good - perhaps to be expected from someone with his obvious expertise.  But again, I only point out that these are girls seeking out the services of an agency, and on this and other boards we have shown that they represent the tiniest fraction of Russian womanhood and are often atypical of the kind of women found amongst the Russian general population.

I have been blessed to have been able to associate with some of the more elite members of Russian society - to some extent because I wouldn't settle for the easy pickings offered up by many agencies and to some extent because I didn't restrict my search to street, err, English-wise girls.

It's a shame you apparently use English ability as some kind of litmus-test either for intelligence or honestly - perhaps being a little less rigid might gain you some rewards, it certainly has me.