Evaluating an agency website

[tim 360]

RVR, Very nice to read your view of the subject. And Andrewfin for his input. It is a topic which has been murky, at best for most. Every person I have known from Ukraine or Russia, which is only a dozen people, have all told me they learned English in what we would term, high school and then continued it at university. So some have 8 years of this. They are quite good.

They all tell me that their friends all take English too. Because it leads to better jobs and better money. And it certainly does. Today a person with an excellent diploma and excellent English skills will make much more money.

What I have found is that of the group most are very good at written English. No problems there. Very good communication.

Spoken English will vary and most will not have spoken English skills commensurate with their written English skill set. This will vary. But written will always be better than spoken.

English slang/ will leave only the most English adept utterly and totally confused and nearly speechless. Then again, slang is a Native Speaker domain. You have to actually be here and immersed in English before you begin to understand it. It evolves and changes. But, it does not take too long to learn. I have known girls here on student visas, who after 8 or 9 months here have gotthe lingodown quite well. No problem.

Spoken language? if you don't use it you lose it. But not all-together, like riding a bicycle, it does come back. Even my high school French comes back when in the company of the French.

On the Russian Diplomatic Level: There is an excellent school about 20 kilometres outside if Moscow, near to your city, I believe, which teaches all the Russian Diplomatic and Consular translators. It is a complete immersion technique in which only English is spoken for 2 years + 2 years. Zero Russian. It is a locked and gated school. And guarded. These ladies speak nearly native speaker English....but, although schooled in slang--- they don't really get it, until they spent time in DC or LA or NYC. I have met a few of them.

Now, maybe in Grublinka....there is no English. But anyone exposed to secondary school or to university has at least had the option to study it. Too many myths abound.

[tim 360]

Racer x,  I don't think Andrewfin was being inaccurate at all.  I think you are being too hard on him.  English is not a "dead language" in the FSU.  At all.  It is the language of opportunity.

Physics?  English has been and is the international standard language for physics.  Physicists like,  Abrikosov, Khalatnikov, Ginzburg,  Alexeevich,  Kapista,  et al,  all know this.  If you want to know what your international collegues are doing....you learn English.  Or,  you have some clerk translate for you.  Best to do it firsthand.  For people with this profound intellect learning English is not a big deal.  They have more brain cells than I do.

Simply,  English is more prevelant (varying degrees of fluency) than most are led to believe in this little dog and pony show,  that is really the point,  methinks,  Cheerio, Tim

[RacerX]

tim 360 ~ I like your attitude, somehow you seem distant from the forum/MOB aspect of this "search."  Look, I would love to go with the good ol' boys and tell you it would be a delight if your girl knew English and at the same time retained any of those traditional values RW used to be famous for, but these days everyone's an expert on how to find the perfect RW, so I just like to point out there are alternative ways to go about this process.  Maybe I'm living in the past, but sleeping next to a beautiful (previously a model), now a brilliant RW physician  who didn't know any English is all the proof I need.  The other guys can live with what they have or for that matter DON'T :cool:


edit: my Father-in-law directs an institute that employs 2 full time English --> Russian translators.  I asked him why they all don't just learn English, his answer: "why, we have experts for that sort of thing!"

[tim 360]

Hey Racer-x,  Yeah,  kinda distant form the mob scene.  And definitely not an expert on it.  Nor would I wish to be.  Many aspects of it are repugnant.

Many guys look at the FSU through a fog,  it is mysterious for them.  It affects their attitude towards people from the FSU.  Some will look down upon them.  Yet,  people from the FSU are far more educated than some would conjecture after reading the agency propaganda.  Or some mob boards. 

For the smart and upwardly mobile there,  English is the 2nd language.  It is a very good card to have in ones pocket for a better job in many sectors of the economy.  Like international biz.

It sounds like you have married very well and I do sincerely congratulate you on that.  I am sure you learned alot which I would encourage you to share.  Not the personal stuff,  but the basics of your experience. 

Too many fools get involved in this....pursuit....and know absolutely zero about the people or their culture or their history or language.  The social and cultural anthropology of the FSU.  Yet,  they wish to marry a babe from the FSU???  That is a great mistake,  I think.   It is because of mis-understanding that so many problems arise.  Language really being the least of them.

English is available in school,  for those who want it.  Some do and some don't.  A bright girl will learn English here very quickly given good aides and methods and immersion.  So that is not a huge hurdle.

I think many different methods can work and "alternative" methods are probably the very best,  as you have discovered.   The "experts" can only point out a few of the dangers along the the road,  but they cannot walk your road with you.  That really,  is each mans long walk alone.

[andrewfi]

RacerX

Your point about your father in law is not germane. No matter how good a normal individual's English may be, there is usually quite a gap, at any kind of professional level, between the demands of 'normal' speech and writing and the demands of professional writing. The diffierence is what one might call the 'final 10%'. A small difference but one that can make or break the credibility of the writer and his organisation. For this reason almost any sensible organisation that deals in English written documents will either employ people to ensure that their output is credible or will hire in the expertise as needed. I would doubt very much that the people employed in your father in law's organisation were involved in the day to day translation of mundane english documents for professionals unable to use English.

Those people who were expected to work on documents in your FIL's org quite probably have a level of English that nears or exceeds yours.

BTW, please do check your facts. The information I provided is accurate both historically and currently. I understand why it is that people wish to delude you and others like you, it makes good business and personal* sense. It does not help you or others to be thus deluded.

*how many people, who would wish to live in an English speaking country would choose to tell you that they studied English for several years and yet now can not communicate. It does not indicate a great deal about their ability to learn, or remember. It is much more sensible from their POV to tell you that in their schools nobody learns English, or other languages.

BTW I did not learn to ride a bike by reading a book, but neither did I learn the practice or theory of economics by running the European Central Bank. As I noted upthread, If what I write is incorrect then I am sure that there would be howls of protest - protests there are none. So I think we can safely infer that most of what I write is correct and on-point. (I know that I, like you, make errors of omission and commission, but there is usually evidence to back up that which I post.)

It is, in general, only the least capable in any field of endeavour who have to do all their learning by experience. I am very happy to have been able to receive a thorough dose of 'book larnin'' that has stood me in good stead. What kind of larnin' person are you?

[Rvrwind]

I'll just say that before I became an agency owner I was in the search the same way you guys are. I did not become an agency owner overnight & I certainly paid my dues to get to where I am, which by far is not anywhere near where I would like to be.

IMHO it shouldn't matter one iota if the lady speaks English or not when you first meet. Attraction has nothing to do with the spoken word however it does have plenty to do with developing the relationship for the future. When I met my wife she knew about four words of English, she took English in school but had forgoten most of it. After 3 months of lessons when I returned to her the improvment was totally awsome. Now even having never left Russia & been emerrsed in it she speaks & understands plenty well enough.

I attribute this to her desire to want to be with me & communicate with me. She has learned becuse she knows it is important for us to communicate & I have failed to learn Russian because I am seriously lacking the ability to do so, as much as I keep trying. However her English is 100 times better than my Russian.

She does have problems with understanding some folks, like my friend Allistar from England who's accent is so heavy (as she says) there are times I don't get it. But other than that not a big problem. It is all a reflection of her desire to want to make your relationship work.

By the way, I ain't no expert by far, but I been at this since the late 80's so I choose to share what I learned. What worked for me may not work for you but I share my knowledge in hopes that I can save the odd fool from his own folly. But expert,, I don't hink there is anybody I would deem an expert in matters of the heart!!!:cool:

RVR - Canadian Cowboy/Agency Owner

[jb]

It would be impossible to render an accurate evaluation of Soviet era  education without having actually attended school there, and during  that time.  However, I think it is safe to assume that; as Orwell  said, "Some pigs are more equal than other pigs".  The overall  quality of instruction; content, complexity, and presentation, will be  of a relative quality.  Are you touting an education gained at  Moscow State University, or from a small technical instute from a  backwoods area?  The differences in the level of instruction and  teacher qualifications can be enormous, however, the uninitiated  newbie, with little experience and no familiarity with the system,  might be gulled into thinking he is marrying a highly educated woman,  when in fact, he's getting a simple shop girl.  That's a risk one  takes if you shun the women from the larger metro areas and seek only  the so called "tradition small town/village girls".  

There is also the modern problem with Russian schools, in that there is  the possibility to buy a grade from a professor, whereas under the old  scheme, grades absolutely had to be earned.   I think this  problem would be amplified in the smaller towns since the teachers  there are paid unbelievably small wages and they still have to have  shelter and food.  The  market economy which Moscow, St. Pete, and  Kiev enjoys, has yet to reach places outside the major cities.   Still and even so, we usually see young children coming to the States  on K-2 and K-4 visas, and when compared to American children of the  same age groups, they excel well beyond expectations.  Therefore  it is safe to say the Russians are doing something right in the area of  education.

WRT the question of foreign languages, all children in Russia, (don't  know about Ukraine), are required to study a foreign language from  grade 5, mostly they can choose from English, French, or German, with  English being the most common by a factor of 5.  At last count, my  wife tells me there are only 2 schools/universities in the far, far  east which offer asian languages, Chinese, Korean, and Japanese.   There are also special language schools, such as the one my wife  attended where a foreign language is taught from grade 1 and the  instructors are recuited from abroad, which explains my wife's British  accent and her lack of comprehension for American idiom.

As Andrew stated, if your girl tells you she never studied a foreign  language, she's prolly either so rusty at it she doesn't want to  embarass herself, or she managed to avoid the classes due to a complete lack of  apptitude.

[Aleksia]

To learn Asian languages, you do not need to travel so far. There are several Universities in Moscow which can offer you such studies.