Meeting with a Pro-Dater. My Story.

[Timothy]

Valence:

I agree with you about posting very personal details in a failed relationship. It doesn't really prove anything since we are only hearing one-sided stories anyway.
Exactly. In fairness to FSU women, we don't know if some men go over there and the 'sincere dater' is actually turned off by his requests for illicit photos,bestial sex or something simple as him picking his nose all the time. Therefore when he returns to his home country she is immediately classified as a "pro-dater" because she showed no further interest in him.

I wasn't a member here at the time to read about this 'Dutchman"'s story so I can't comment on it.

Miss FSU: I've read several of your posts. Correct me if I'm wrong, but why does it seem to me that you defend professional prodaters? That you think it's all right to induce a man to come over and spend great amounts of money if she had no sincere intentions in the first place? In simple words, it is called 'deceit' or an artform of prostitution. But you have said in the past that without these prodaters, there would be no money to earn for translators? So does that make it morally right in your viewpoint?

[Miss FSU]

Both those girls actually are happily married with the guys of their age, 1 2 years, another one 1 year. Of course I can't guarantee thier marriages will last forever but I know for sure they didn't have any material interest as those guys were quite young(1 25, 2nd 30 оr 31) and of avarage income also quite attractive. But yes, those girls made a lot of money prodating with old guys. But they were not reported as they didn't act similar to this topic gang


Timothy of course I should defend pro-daters becouse
1) I am a woman
2) I am ukrainain
3) I am interpriter
4) I have few friends among pro-daters
5) Pro-daters help normal girls to avoid loosers
6) They let the fairytale come true for lots of guys who thought their privat life is over
7) Pro-dater's reports on this forum are fun to read
I don't know if i would meet my husband if there were no prodaters


But generally I am not defending anyone, I am just against all those reports, there is women's forum as well where they post all kinds of men who made sex with them and didn't pay I find those reports very entertaiming as well

It's just amazing for me how stupid people can be for not only been involved in all this crap but also introducing their IQ to all the world. That's why I think they aslo should put their datas there as well and then see how popular they will become among the honest and serious ladies

Timothy, you put your gal's photos here.I really hope she will appear to be prodater as I wouldn't wish for myself or other girls who really hope to meet a normal man to be listed on some forum with the words "did anyone ever met her?" Hope you are not going to percuit her after this. Would you post AW details same way on the forum?

[Timothy]

Well, if you read my post, it seems that the unanimous decision by the good members here was that the woman in question was a scammer. Unless maybe you didn't see any red flags in the points I brought up?
Therefore if a woman is determined to be a scammer, I see no problem in warning others about this person so they do not fall into the same trap I did, namely suckered into sending money for flowers, or translation money based upon a woman's words, only to find out later, a number of red flags appear. It is simply a warning for others to perhaps think twice before corresponding with this person.

I don't see your rationale that if a man posts a scammer's photos, that he should post his own details also.What for, if he is the one scammed? Perhaps I am stretching this for comparison of severity but you  notice in most stories about rape, the victim's name is usually withheld.
 It could have been worse. I could have posted her passport details. And my first name and photo are posted here on my profile anyway.  

 I'm sure there are boards out there for AM and AW who were jilted by the other in this country and so they share their stories.
AM/AW relationships are simple. You meet them before spending great amounts of money so the decision is there before-hand. In spending much more money for travel,living arrangements to meet a woman in FSU, it is much more risky so it doesn't help if the pro-dater moves things along if she was not in fact sincere in the first place.
Just as you said, there are FSU women boards who complain how they were treated by certain foreign men, well there should be. I'm not arguing against that.

As for pro daters who are not sincere in a relationship with a suitor off the bat because of his age or other reasons: Does it make it right for the pro-dater to make the man believe she is interested in him and letting him spend thousands of dollars when she knows nothing will come of it? There is still such a thing as honor isn't there? But your reasoning seems to be that with even without pro daters who are insincere, there would be less jobs for translators in your country.

[Miss FSU]

Timothy I do see plenty of red flags in your thread, but why.It seems she is pro-dater, again it SEEMS, it doesn't mean she IS. May be lets have police investigation and court desicion before posting someone as a scammer?

If it is so obvious for others, why it was not obvious for you? Why you just didn't stop correspondance after all that translation crap appeared? You profile says that you are experienced dater.
Of course it's much easier to post someone's photos and details in the net and ask other's opinion. Much less brain work required. Non-prodaters estimate your brain abilities in time and won't bother to continue. While pro-daters are ready to meet anyone, so you should be more caring about them

Anyways we are waiting for the next scammer photos here, that is probably how scam-hunters being born

[Handycam72]

Timothy of course I should defend pro-daters becouse
1) I am a woman
2) I am ukrainain
3) I am interpriter
4) I have few friends among pro-daters
5) Pro-daters help normal girls to avoid loosers
6) They let the fairytale come true for lots of guys who thought their privat life is over
7) Pro-dater's reports on this forum are fun to read
I don't know if i would meet my husband if there were no prodaters


But generally I am not defending anyone, I am just against all those reports, there is women's forum as well where they post all kinds of men who made sex with them and didn't pay I find those reports very entertaiming as well

You defend Pro-Daters with some quite bizzare points. I will use "Sex Tourists" and use some of your form of defense to rationalise  them.

1) Why does being a woman make you feel the need to defend Pro-Daters?
Its like a man saying he defends all Sex Tourists because they are men.

2) What does being Ukrainian have to do with it?
Are all Sex Tourists from the West so as I'm from the West what they do is ok.

3) Being an interpreter I can understand, you make a living from it. You wouldn't want to bite the hand that feeds you.
If I owned a Tour firm that did sex tours, I would defend sex tourists.

4) Your friends do it so it must be ok.
A couple of my mates are big sex tourists, so because they are my friends I think its ok.

5) This one is interesting, you admitted that Pro-Daters are not normal girls.
Sex Tourists help normal guys avoid the whores and easy lays.

6) How can they be letting the fairytale come true when it will end in a nightmare?
Sex Tourists help the women feel desired and wanted.

7) Its the reports that really trouble you, you say you find them funny. I am sure you do in some sadistic way. As long as the report is on no-one that you know or do business with. You wouldn't want it to effect business.
As a Sex Tourist I would be amused by the stories of the girls who got caught out, just hope I don't appear on there. I will be ruined.

Can't make a comment on your final point as I have no idea how you met your husband.
I can say if I was never a Sex Tourist I would never of met my wife, I am so happy I was a sex tourist.


DISCLAIMER: Sex Tourist is used as an example, I in no way support Sex Tourists or knowingly know anyone who is active in this activity.


Now the interesting part, you go through 8 reasons why you defend Pro-Daters, then you say your not defending anyone you just hate that people can put their details up on the internet and you find it amusing to read. The same about the women forums too, you find them amusing.
Is it not the case that you hate the idea of anyone that you know as a Pro-Dater having there details put on the internet and others learning about that Pro-Dater, then business/income would drop.
So a girl becomes a Pro-Dater. In your eyes she gives the guy his fairytale, his fantasy. The guy discovers what she is doing so decides to warn others of her. Its a simple case if you want to play with fire by all means do, but expect to get burnt, and that goes for both the Guy and the Pro-Dater. The guy gets burnt, he loses money. The Pro-Dater gets burnt, she has her details all over the internet.

[valence]

Having heard her side of the story, and understanding that she too may have a legitimate complaint, is it ok if someone posts your contact details and photos and a few of your emails?  After all, is her side of the story any less genuine than yours?

[Handycam72]

Having heard her side of the story, and understanding that she too may have a legitimate complaint, is it ok if someone posts your contact details and photos and a few of your emails?  After all, is her side of the story any less genuine than yours?

Is it ok if someone posts your contact details and photos and a few of your emails?

As the only contact details I give anyone I have met through the internet are a secondary email address and Mobile (cell phone) number. I will never give my home address or main contact details to anyone unless I was completely sure of them, and especially never give them to anyone I had never met face to face.

It also depends in what context my photos and contact details were posted. I can't imagine a Pro-Dater would even bother, what they going to do, warn other Pro-Daters that I will put their details on the internet?, so make sure they keep away from me? If that is the case, go ahead, more chance of avoiding the Pro-Daters or will they use it as a way of trying to get more business out of me, I doubt it. What would be the concern of posting my emails on the internet, they are just emails, nothing more. The reality is it would not concern me in the slightest, I have nothing to hide or a business to protect, a Pro-Dater needs to protect their game.

As for the argument about "Would you do the same if you met someone in your own city who did the same or was a Gold Digger?" There is a big difference between them, in your own city, you meet, have dinner or a few drinks together, but pretty quickly you can work out her motives. Then tell a few friends she was just a Gold Digger and move on. I have seen it happen time and time again in the area I live. There are many Gold Diggers who come here from around the UK trying to get themselves a rich footballer or some Millionaire businessman, a TV series was made about Gold Diggers in the area. People here make it known who the Gold Diggers are, so too make sure you avoid them.  Meeting a Pro-Dater in another country involves alot of leg work before you even meet face to face. There is the correspondence, the phone calls and then the flights and accommodation before you actually meet face to face. So the initial outlay is far bigger, both financially and emotionally. So reporting them on the internet and how to spot them is giving people the knowledge so as not to fall into their trap.


After all, is her side of the story any less genuine than yours?

A guy goes to another country with sincere and honest intentions, the woman he meets has other ideas. She wants his money and all she can get out of him under the pretence of something developing between them. As far as I can see, her side of the story consists of someone protecting her livelihood. Pro-Daters are very protective about what they do. Most go through there Pro-Dating career never getting their details posted, but a few will get burnt, in the bigger picture more guys get burnt than Pro-Daters.

I will give you analogy. You get Robbed in the street, and he escapes in a car driven by someone else, do you sit back and say oh dear and carry on with your life, or do you report it to the Police. Do nothing, and the robber becomes more confident, thinking he can get away with it, eventually he may turn to violent attacks while robbing and people get hurt. But as far as your concerned it was just a harmless Robbing, so why bother alerting others about them. The Robber will not like the idea of the Police looking for them or being aware of what they are doing and try and put a stop to it, also the driver will not like it, as they also make a good income from the Robberies.

By reporting the actions of the Pro-Daters and making their details known it gives others the knowledge to protect themselves from the Pro-Daters. If they don't want their details known, if they don't want postings on the internet, don't be a Pro-Dater and don't be involved with Pro-Daters.

[Timothy]

Miss FSU: I guess I am just a dim light bulb and tried to rationalize these red flags at first before being thumped in the head by all the members here convincing me she is a scammer.
I stated my case and don't need to further comment. Please, I ask you to return to your fancy letter writing for the pro daters you know. 

Handy: Funny post. I never really thought of it that way.   

[valence]

And from the girl's side of the story, some weirdo from the west shows up who can't speak the language and is twice her age and she doesn't know him from Adam and then he wants to perv on her.  Halitosis thrown in for free.

Can you blame her for being turned off?   And all she's doing is following the script her bf gave her.  The bf is her room and board and social status.  And you're saying it's right to equate the poor girl to a street thug?  To assign the most vulnerable and innocent of all those involved 100% of the blame?

And to do it all with an air of self-righteousness?  How noble of you!   

[Handycam72]

And from the girl's side of the story, some weirdo from the west shows up who can't speak the language and is twice her age and she doesn't know him from Adam and then he wants to perv on her.  Halitosis thrown in for free.

Can you blame her for being turned off?   And all she's doing is following the script her bf gave her.  The bf is her room and board and social status.  And you're saying it's right to equate the poor girl to a street thug?  To assign the most vulnerable and innocent of all those involved 100% of the blame?

And to do it all with an air of self-righteousness?  How noble of you!   

Interesting how you claim that you have her side of the story. Considering she has no interest in being in contact with any western men outside of the agency and has not got any profile on FB, but of course you could be in contact with a completely different girl with the same name.

At which point do I "equate the poor girl to a street thug". You will notice if you read what I said ,I used the street robber as an Analogy, although extreme I admit. It gets the point across with regard to the reporting debate.

Valence I see you live in the UK, the same as me, but in your earlier post you did not know the time difference between the UK and Ukraine, also you seem to have changed your argument from being one of, yes she is a Pro-Dater, to one which you come across as almost claiming that no such thing exists. You seem to change your viewpoint like people change their underwear. I am curious to know where you stand on this whole debate with regard to scams and Pro-Dating in general?

You say I am being self-righteous, maybe I am, maybe it comes across that way. But you may want to look at your own posts before accusing others of being self-righteous. Don't you think?

[KenC]

Considering she has no interest in being in contact with any western men outside of the agency and has not got any profile on FB, but of course you could be in contact with a completely different girl with the same name.

Handycam,
Two points I would like to make:
#1-Just because the girl chooses to deal with finding a man via an agency does not automatically make her a pro dater.
#2-Just because this girl was not interested in YOU, does not mean she would not be interested in the right man for her.

We men sit here and dissect the women every which way from Tuesday, seeking the perfect combination for ourselves.  Yet if a woman is very selective in her search she is labled a pro dater or a scammer.  A lot of these accusations taste of sour grapes in my mind.
KenC

[RussianWind]

Yet if a woman is very selective in her search she is labled a pro dater or a scammer.  A lot of these accusations taste of sour grapes in my mind.

  I agree with you Ken.

I have a very selective friend. It seems she doesn't remember herself how many men she already met, hundreds. I can't call her a pro-dater as she really looks for her right partner. Never asks anything from men, they buy everything themselves and very expensive things.

[Gator]

Yet if a woman is very selective in her search she is labled a pro dater or a scammer.  A lot of these accusations taste of sour grapes in my mind.

  I agree with you Ken.

I have a very selective friend. It seems she doesn't remember herself how many men she already met, hundreds. I can't call her a pro-dater as she really looks for her right partner.

This happens.  And some men resent it because they have an overinflated view of themselves.  Or think all RW are desperate and getting one should be the same as choosing a puppy at the pet store and putting a collar on her.  So the men complain after being rejected.

Yet, you add something that ain't right.   

Never asks anything from men, they buy everything themselves and very expensive things.

I assume these are not gifts presented upon the first meeting but gifts bought for her after spending time with her.   The former should be modest yet thoughtful.  The latter should be more substantial, something to celebrate the "splendid"  time together.  If she has no interest in a particular man, why would she accept such a gift from him? In fact, why is she continuing to see him?

A  couple of RW have rejected me.  They made their feelings clear.   In fact I appreciated their direct and forthright revelation.   

[RussianWind]

I assume these are not gifts presented upon the first meeting but gifts bought for her after spending time with her.   

That's right.

If she has no interest in a particular man, why would she accept such a gift from him? In fact, why is she continuing to see him?

She says she never accepts anything from men she doesn't like. Those who buy she is trying to establish a relation with them or to look at them closer. She rejects when she understands that he is not right for her for some reasons. For example when she notices he is not accurate with his clothes or his way of eating irritates her and she understands that this will irritate her in future even more. She actually met couple of men who she says were ideal for her but she rejected them for some reasons too - one was in a very bad process of his divorce and another one just after divorce taking antidepressant pills. One more was discarded when he told her he cheated his wife with another woman. She is really tired from all this and we think she attracts and is attracted by certain type of men who actually contradict her ideals. But believe me she is having good time and great time with those who she likes at the beginning...

[Gator]

She says she never accepts anything from men she doesn't like. Those who buy she is trying to establish a relation with them or to look at them closer.

What is your opinion on when during the intitial meeting should a man buy a RW a lovely present?

I will give you my answer.  I believe a man should buy a RW a special gift after they have connected and are planning a future meeting.  I gave my future wife a leather jacket on my last day of my first meeting with her with plans for a return visit.  I  gave another RW a cell phone (a good one) after four fabulous days with firm plans for a second meeting.

This does not sound like what your friend is doing.  It sounds like she is accepting gifts before talk about a second meeting.  "Hundreds" of men is too many to have spent 4 days with each unless she has been doing this constantly for years. 

Maybe the sex was so mind blowing that the men could not control their generosity.  Maybe the men had more money than brains.  Maybe the men thought they could buy love. 

I hope she was not leading "hundreds" of men to shops.  If she were, that would fall in my definition of "pro-dating."  I assume not. 

She is really tired from all this and we think she attracts and is attracted by certain type of men who actually contradict her ideals.

Sounds like my business partner's wife.  She was contemplating divorce a long time ago.  A marriage counselor told her not to divorce because she would marry the same type of man again and repeat the same mistakes.  They have been married 40 years.

But believe me she is having good time and great time with those who she likes at the beginning...

I believe you.  I too had a lot of fantastic weekends in my younger, less serious years.  Nothing wrong with it, and is a part of discovering oneself.  Sounds like your friend, however, keeps discovering the same thing.

[Timothy]

I am actually struggling with the definition of "pro dater" and to how often it occurs in agencies.
Yes, I agree that a woman has the right to change her mind if the guy she meets turns out to be an outright slob.
KenC writes: Just because the girl chooses to deal with finding a man via an agency does not automatically make her a pro dater.

My question is what agencies are reliable and what is the percentage that the girl who joins the agency is not a pro dater from the beginning?
It seems there are plenty of stories where the agency is in it for profit and the girl actually works for the agency. Take the example of Handycam's case. Weren't there outragious fees paid for taxis and such?

[valence]

Valence I see you live in the UK, the same as me, but in your earlier post you did not know the time difference between the UK and Ukraine, also you seem to have changed your argument from being one of,

In point of fact, and omitted from your story but included in her side of the story, is that you had been deceiving her from the outset about your intentions.  So it was both sides of the affair deceiving each other and they simply outfoxed you at your own game.  So who's to blame?

And what turned my sentiment negative is that you threatened her and then sought vengence against her and then sought sympathy from internet forums whilst at the same time pretending to be nobly 'advising' people and glossing over the fact that you started it all and they simply played along with you.  It is not an adult  behaviour pattern of a gent in his late 30's I should think.

[RussianWind]

This does not sound like what your friend is doing.  It sounds like she is accepting gifts before talk about a second meeting.  "Hundreds" of men is too many to have spent 4 days with each unless she has been doing this constantly for years. 

No Gator, you misundertood me.
She met hundreds but most of them were through agencies who was doing VM trips. She had to go to see them for a cup of coffee of whatever. Of course nobody speaks of gifts if you spend just an hour in a cafe.
But there are also many men who she meet for longer period. She normally visits them in their country or they meet in the third country. Sometimes they come here.

[facetrock]

Interesting thread. As usual I agree with KenC. Dont have to post much with him around and I cut my damn finger off so its hard to type anyway>
 
 I also agree with Miss Fsu about the Ukrainian mentality, in there culture they dont suffer fools. Fierce loyalty and compassion for friends and family run high with Ukrainians but they will deride strangers for stupidity or being taken advantage of. They will show little mercy. They are part of a culture where corruption is rampant and have become somewhat numb to all that entails.
 
Handycam, sorry but I cannot feel any sympathy what so ever for you. I have heard storys like yours for years and I guess I am a little numb myself. You knew you were thinking with your dick and if you would have got to use it on her a few times you would be singing a different song. I feel no animosity towards her or prodaters or vacation whores or  male sextourists, GCC scammers or whatever else is out there and I will tell you why.

  Male sex tourists. This is a man that goes over just for sex. Promises the world to get laid. Gee, how long have men being promising women the world to get some trim and how long have women known men do this. Forever.
   Look at Ambach, goes to the FSU flashes cash and bangs some girls over 30 years younger. Do you really think the 30 year old hot women he is banging are into a guy that is almost 60,and is of Turkish decent?  Or is it because of the cash. We all know the answer to that one. I dont feel sorry for the girls either. They know what they are getting into. Ambach will get what he wants but it will blow up in his face, hell maybe they will truly deserve each other. 

  Scammers. If some men are so gullible to really believe that a smokin hot women will show up at his doorstep and profess her undying loyalty and love for a man she has never seen or spoken to just by sending her money for a plane ticket, well, sorry, no sympathy here.
  I will try to help you so it wont happen againg but if your to lazy to get on a plane and find out if she is real or not, dont cry to me. And thats what the problem really is, lazy men who think they can buy their way out of lonliness.

   Prodaters and vacation whores. You dont have to go to the FSU to find them. I bet everyone here has a buddy who had a girl use them or have been used themselves and you dont see a website listing all the prodaters in your hometowns. I really believe most of the men are pi$$ed because they spent alot of money and didnt get laid. But of course none will ever admit that, it was true love they were looking for
 
GCC. In every case I have ever heard of there were so many red flags before hand the man must have been getting the best sex and head he ever thought possible. You cant fake love, dont care who you are.

done ranting.
   
 

[Handycam72]

In point of fact, and omitted from your story but included in her side of the story, is that you had been deceiving her from the outset about your intentions.  So it was both sides of the affair deceiving each other and they simply outfoxed you at your own game.  So who's to blame?

And what turned my sentiment negative is that you threatened her and then sought vengence against her and then sought sympathy from internet forums whilst at the same time pretending to be nobly 'advising' people and glossing over the fact that you started it all and they simply played along with you.  It is not an adult  behaviour pattern of a gent in his late 30's I should think.

You now got me very curious. According to "her" side of the story. is that you had been deceiving her from the outset about your intentions. So in what way was I deceiving her from the outset, according to whoever you have spoken too?

Threats, that is laughable, there have been NO threats. Please share this "insider" knowledge that you claim to have.

[valence]

You are legally barred from sponsoring her spouse visa until 2013.  I have confirmed this.

[tim 360]

You are legally barred from sponsoring her spouse visa until 2013.  I have confirmed this.

Ouch!  Valence, what do you mean by that statement??????  Legally barred ???

[valence]

It means it's not going to happen.  And it's confirmed.  Not an option.  Do you suggest there's another meaning?

[Timothy]

Anyone have any idea what he's writing about? Sounds like a personal attack...

[JR]

Legally barred from sponsoring a woman he doesn't want...Hmm, not much loss there:)