Understanding the discourse: romantic.

[KenC]

lol! .... kinda' like choosing a Romantic First Class Private Sleeper with Dinning Car from St.Petersburg to Kirov vs a Third Class Open Bunk Coach?? Okay, you've got me there Ken

A true gift from the er, um heart!  (Just bustin yer chops)

Seriously, that is a very romantic expenditure.
KenC

[mies]

 However Mies, if you are interested, I might send you a PM sometime about it since you seem to have a particular interest in flowers.

if you can do it - i'd appreciate that greatly. However if the memories are unpleasant for you - do as you prefer. In any case i promise i won't make comments or remarks. 

the issue of flowers - frankly speaking i am curious about it because this is something i cannot understand about men. From a men's point of view - earrings are same useless item as flowers are. Man cannot wear earrings, the minute he gave them - they are "gone", he cannot take them back, prospects of getting any use of them later (e.g. if they are expensive - taking them from woman and reselling them) are highly dubious. In short - i can see what's the use of a present of motorcycle, or skis, or car, or vacuum-cleaner, or nice set of cookware. Even a warm sweater or hat. But earrings? Totally useless thing. And still - it's much more easier for woman to hint man into giving her earrings, rather than giving her flowers. If you see my point.

[Mars]

if you can do it - i'd appreciate that greatly. However if the memories are unpleasant for you - do as you prefer. In any case i promise i won't make comments or remarks. 

the issue of flowers - frankly speaking i am curious about it because this is something i cannot understand about men. From a men's point of view - earrings are same useless item as flowers are. Man cannot wear earrings, the minute he gave them - they are "gone", he cannot take them back, prospects of getting any use of them later (e.g. if they are expensive - taking them from woman and reselling them) are highly dubious. In short - i can see what's the use of a present of motorcycle, or skis, or car, or vacuum-cleaner, or nice set of cookware. Even a warm sweater or hat. But earrings? Totally useless thing. And still - it's much more easier for woman to hint man into giving her earrings, rather than giving her flowers. If you see my point.

I am not viewing this in your context.  I am not thinking of taking anything back, so I am not concerned that I cannot get some future value or refund, etc.  I am thinking the long-term usefulness to the woman.  The flowers are gone in X days.  The more tangible gifts can last a lifetime.  But, as you told in an earlier post, if the woman doesn't really care for a particular gift (earrings in your example) then it does little good that the item can last a lifetime.  However, my same logic would apply to any long-life item that the woman actually did want, appreciate and enjoy.

And, no, I do not see your point that it is easier to ask for earrings than flowers.

[mies]

And, no, I do not see your point that it is easier to ask for earrings than flowers.

nevermind then

asking for earrings is usually more productive process because men think "ok - it will last and can be used - rational gift" and with flowers they think "flowers will be gone in x days - useless gift". Even though - earrings are not really useful gift. And for man, who isn't going to use them - theoretically it should not matter how long they will last.
memories are quite tangible. memories of nice flowers can last lifetime. they can have same effect on a woman as earrings do.

[docetae]

nevermind then

asking for earrings is usually more productive process because men think "ok - it will last and can be used - rational gift" and with flowers they think "flowers will be gone in x days - useless gift". Even though - earrings are not really useful gift. And for man, who isn't going to use them - theoretically it should not matter how long they will last.
memories are quite tangible. memories of nice flowers can last lifetime. they can have same effect on a woman as earrings do.

first bad thing.... don't try to think what men think from my own experience (trying to know what woman want) is the worst thing I can do. Why ? because I will try to change and adapt my behavior to something I am not.
 I will do only what I think is the best based on her innuendo and tips, and where I am totally comfortable. And I expect the same from the woman I love.

1- Gifts should never be asked (except to Santa Claus).
2 - Flowers, earring, clothes. The value is not in the gift but in the way and time the gift is given to someone.

[remiel6]

I'm going to throw my two cents in here.
1) Give the damn flowers, not because they are useful, but because it makes her happy and I like to see her smile.
2)romantic, I mean real romantic, not hallmark card romantic. Is unexpected. To me it is doing something, heck it could be almost anything, that she does not expect, with no real thought of getting anything back, for the simple reason that it will make her smile. Is it really romantic if you always give flowers? I suppose that is a debateable subject, but I do it anyway. Why? Because if I see her happy it makes me happy. I do not think about usefulness or anything else. If I debate the usefulness of my Christmas gifts I wind up giving vacuum cleaners and other things. Life is not about being useful it is about being happy and if all it takes is some flowers to start us off in the right direction then that is what I will do.
also on a side note, there are some things I do not trust my sense of judgment on and in one giant broad category is anything to do with fashion. So earrings might be awesome, certainly unexpected, but I don't know that I trust my taste enough to choose ones that will make her happy and not feel like "hey I got a tie."

[viking]

This is a little embaressing and WAS a little embaressing.... but when I was visiting my fiancee in Gomel ( Belarus) we took a walk in the park with several of her girl friends. It was a nice night, with an area filled with a small stream, swans, some lighted fountains and so forth. We all stopped to rest on a bench.

I really dont know why, but I started to sing an old Elvis song ( Cant help falling in Love with You) ( and I am not Elvis but do have a decent voice) and everyone became silent. Right in the middle of the song she plants a big one on my lips. What a smile she had! I regrouped and finished the song. Her best friend commented that " it came from my heart". Yeah, it did. the rest of the night went quite well.

[mies]

  I want to understand what do men mean when they say they are romantic, and what type of women is viewed by (Western) men as romantic. So far only Mars replied to this part of the question. Thank you Mars.

[docetae]

I separate the process of understanding and trying to catch all interrelations and the mechanism of realization. Why ? Look at my signature. This is totally personal but from my own experience, each time I tried to rationalize emotions, it was an error. Why ? because it was losing spontaneity. Viking told about his Presley song. I am sure that if he would not have done it if he thought about it

If my wife do not present me a gift that I expect (and inverse is true), it will be because we will not be probably close enough to understand each other wishes. It is usual for us (me and Anna) to talk about what we want. We have delimited 4 scopes of reality : What we have and live (now), what we can have and live (short term), what we wish to have and live (projects) , and what we dream to have and live (phantasms).

There will be romanticism for us when we are able to mix these realities in one with a time out of the present.

A gift is just one element that will help to cross theses realities and can not be assimilated to romanticism for us.

[mies]

thank you

[KenC]

Wow guys, some great stuff here with only one guy missing the boat.
docetae,
I'm with you on the requests for gifts buddy.  The best way to receive a gift from me is NOT to ask for it.  Asking will only assure that I will NOT give it.
remiel6,
One of my biggest romantic pet peeves is Valentines Day.  This day was created for men that have not done their part to express their love for their woman.  Kind of like "romance guide for idiots" IMO.  I'll be damned if I am going to allow Hallmark to tell me when to express my love for someone.
Viking,
You smooth devil!  What a great story!  You two will never forget it ever.  Coincidently, I was on the receiving end of that same song!  It was near the end of my first trip to visit Lena and she sang that song in a Karaoke place to me.  Imagine a beautiful woman singing that song in a thick Ruskie accent!  YEOW!!! :hairraising:
Mars,
Dude, you are missing the boat here IMO.  Practicality is the opposite of romantic.

3) if you want to discuss gifts - let's switch to gifts topic or to private I don't want to raise another storm of indignation "all russian women are scammers by nature"    I want to understand what do men mean when they say they are romantic, and what type of women is viewed by (Western) men as romantic. So far only Mars replied to this part of the question. Thank you Mars.

mies,
I believe it is up to the man to set the tone for romance in a relationship and for the woman to respond.  Once that tone is set, she can reciprocate in kind.  If her lover leaves love notes for her, she can expect to touch his heart in the same way.  If her lover prepares an intimate dinner with candles, soft music and a fire in the fireplace, it is a roadmap for what it is that HE likes.

Basically it is the same as with men; she has to pay attention to what it is that he responds to and spend the time and energy to please him.  Being creative, attentive and giving from her heart is pure romance to me.
KenC

[viking]

Ken

Talk about a small world. Same song? Yeow is right.  Kinda like Marilyn singing happy birthday to JFK. You just want to reach out and..........

[Mars]

Mars, Dude, you are missing the boat here IMO.  Practicality is the opposite of romantic.

Ken, I stand falsely accused!!  :-))

Re-read my first post where I described my romantic approach.  I never ever included anything about practicality.

It was only later in my discussion with Mies about flowers that I referred to the practical idea.  But gift giving, whether of a practical nature or not, was not part of my romantic approach.

In all of my gifts to family and long-term friends I use the practical approach.  I have no romantic interest in any of these people!!  :-))

I give gifts for the sake of giving gifts, not as part of any plan for romance.

[mies]

i am reading the posts. and thinking whether to try to correct few things in a discussion or better leave it as is.

probably i'll try to point them out. Hopefully it won't lead to even greater confusion.

to sum up the posts of men in this thread, and please correct me if I am wrong.
Being romantic is trying to guess what other partner wants and give this (either a tangible object, or experience) to a person.

Then - Mars says: "I know women like flowers but I rather give earrings than flowers because flowers are useless". I personally know many men with same attitude. So we are seeing a clear controversy. On one hand - men know that from women pov flowers are romantic. Along with earrings and dinner with candles. However, men prefer to give earrings rather than flowers.

Then i make conclusion, that because of male view on flowers - generally women who like earrings and dinners are more likely to get from men the romantic gift that will please them. While women who prefer flowers - will be still getting earrings and dinners and will be only partly satisfied in their need for romance. Basically I was saying that people tend to show their trait of stubbornness, and even though they say "I give to woman what she wants to receive" this is not quite true - because they give to woman "what she wants to receive AND what they think is not a waste of money". So my comment was purely about men's behavior, it had little assumptions about women requesting gifts and such.

I never said the word "ask for a gift". We all know that there are various ways to show preferences - verbally or non-verbally, voluntarily or involuntarily. Man can judge about female preferences based on the amount of happiness his romantic gift has generated. This can clearly be the signal, and hint for his next presents, however woman has not asked anything.

And in this point of discussion happens very interesting thing. First Mars and Docetae, and then all men join and start saying "asking for gifts is the worst idea - if I am asked for gift - i rather do the opposite because gifts should be asked only from Santa"... or something along that lines.
At the same time - all men talk about how important it is to know each other, and to learn about each other's preferences in a couple, and talk to each other, and share, and so on... which is exactly what i was talking about when i said "hint man into the type of gift that she likes"

And it's kind of... makes me feel disappointed and frustrated. Because the initial message was changed 180 degrees, and now it looks as if i am promoting the idea of gifts at request. Why you guys are so negative? Why think worst scenario first... ? 

[KenC]

mies,

men know that from women pov flowers are romantic. Along with earrings and dinner with candles. However, men prefer to give earrings rather than flowers.

It is unfair for you to conclude all men are like one example given here. 

to sum up the posts of men in this thread, and please correct me if I am wrong.
Being romantic is trying to guess what other partner wants

Knowing your lady is not the same as guessing.

However, men prefer to give earrings rather than flowers. Then i make conclusion, that because of male view on flowers - generally women who like earrings and dinners are more likely to get from men the romantic gift that will please them. While women who prefer flowers - will be still getting earrings and dinners and will be only partly satisfied in their need for romance.

Again, only Mars was opposed to flowers. And no man here said that they did not also give flowers.

Basically I was saying that people tend to show their trait of stubbornness, and even though they say "I give to woman what she wants to receive" this is not quite true - because they give to woman "what she wants to receive AND what they think is not a waste of money".

Another incorrect conclusion based on one man's opinion here.  And how can you assume that our women did not want the gifts given?  Are you basing that entirely on one woman's opinion?  Yours?

It is very common that threads wander from the original subject matter in the OP too.  I do think that I have answered your questions posed in the OP.  Maybe you need to restate your questions in a different way to clarify what it is you're asking.
KenC

[mies]

mies,It is unfair for you to conclude all men are like one example given here.

i did not say all men, i said many men. Mars is one of them, men in my family on many occasions - another and about 60-70% of my male friends have absolutely same view of "flowers vs. earrings"

apart from flowers topic - the replies were exactly the kind of information i was asking for - especially your reply about what kind of woman is romantic. and i am thankful for all the replies.

[Mars]

As Mars stated, flowers have absolutely no place in the definition for me either.

KenC:  Again, only Mars was opposed to flowers. And no man here said that they did not also give flowers.

[Mars]

Mies and Ken.  Again I must remind that I never put flowers or any gifts as part of my romantic style.

I know the discussion got intertwined here, but I want to set the record straight.
For me any gifts are not part of my attempts at romance.

[docetae]

i am reading the posts. and thinking whether to try to correct few things in a discussion or better leave it as is.

probably i'll try to point them out. Hopefully it won't lead to even greater confusion.

to sum up the posts of men in this thread, and please correct me if I am wrong.
Being romantic is trying to guess what other partner wants and give this (either a tangible object, or experience) to a person.

Then - Mars says: "I know women like flowers but I rather give earrings than flowers because flowers are useless". I personally know many men with same attitude. So we are seeing a clear controversy. On one hand - men know that from women pov flowers are romantic. Along with earrings and dinner with candles. However, men prefer to give earrings rather than flowers.

Then i make conclusion, that because of male view on flowers - generally women who like earrings and dinners are more likely to get from men the romantic gift that will please them. While women who prefer flowers - will be still getting earrings and dinners and will be only partly satisfied in their need for romance. Basically I was saying that people tend to show their trait of stubbornness, and even though they say "I give to woman what she wants to receive" this is not quite true - because they give to woman "what she wants to receive AND what they think is not a waste of money". So my comment was purely about men's behavior, it had little assumptions about women requesting gifts and such.

I never said the word "ask for a gift". We all know that there are various ways to show preferences - verbally or non-verbally, voluntarily or involuntarily. Man can judge about female preferences based on the amount of happiness his romantic gift has generated. This can clearly be the signal, and hint for his next presents, however woman has not asked anything.

And in this point of discussion happens very interesting thing. First Mars and Docetae, and then all men join and start saying "asking for gifts is the worst idea - if I am asked for gift - i rather do the opposite because gifts should be asked only from Santa"... or something along that lines.
At the same time - all men talk about how important it is to know each other, and to learn about each other's preferences in a couple, and talk to each other, and share, and so on... which is exactly what i was talking about when i said "hint man into the type of gift that she likes"

And it's kind of... makes me feel disappointed and frustrated. Because the initial message was changed 180 degrees, and now it looks as if i am promoting the idea of gifts at request. Why you guys are so negative? Why think worst scenario first... ? 

Mies, Mars the first to talk about gift and you followed... I just dismissed this point to say that point is not relevant to this thread after explaining why. I am used to raise opposite points in discussion in order to opposite them after to my point of view. This is a classical method of discussion, sorry if I was not clear enough.

Romanticism is about communion of soul . This is my point of view and what I am looking in my partner.

[elliott]

...walking through the door and yelling "Honey I'm home"?

I thought it was "Honey, I'm home! Brace yourself!"
 

Give the damn flowers, not because they are useful, but because it makes her happy

Should I give her the damn flowers and tell her to shut up already?  No, I suspect that would only make me single again.

[remiel6]

Elliot I only meant to say that somethings you do because it makes them happy and to make them happy makes me happy. I mentioned nothing about telling anyone to be quiet, or listen to me, or anything of the sort. The reason the "Damn flowers" was given was not because they did not want to be given either. It was only that somethings are not worth fighting over, and trying to get a woman who loves receiving flowers to not like flowers because you think they are a waste of time, is not only a fight you won't win, its rather, a waste of breath. 

[mies]

)))) Elliot - your reply is priceless )

speaking of flowers - reminded me a russian anecdote.

Two group of nazi-style youngsters meet on a street. One group looks like they got out of fight - scratched, bleeding, clothes torn, some are limping. Their friends ask them what happened, if they are generally quite strong, fit, well-trained and aggressive guys.
"We met some peaceful hippies and wanted to make fun of them"
"But hippies are harmless - they are children of flowers!"
"They beaten us up with flowers (("
 
the moral of this story - never underestimate the harmless lovers of flowers  :evil:

[mies]

Mies, Mars the first to talk about gift and you followed... I just dismissed this point to say that point is not relevant to this thread after explaining why. I am used to raise opposite points in discussion in order to opposite them after to my point of view. This is a classical method of discussion, sorry if I was not clear enough.

Romanticism is about communion of soul . This is my point of view and what I am looking in my partner.

ok )
communication of soul is wonderful.

[elliott]

I mentioned nothing about telling anyone to be quiet, or listen to me, or anything of the sort.

I know.  I said it tongue-in-cheek.  It was a joke.  I guess I should have used a smiley face after it, but I was trying to use dry humor.  I don't think dry humor comes across well when it's in written form, especially on a public, internet forum.

[remiel6]

ahh, now I get it. Maybe I was just have a "blond" moment