Should men seek advice from RWD?

[RussianWind]

I heard a group of Muscovites refer to Estonians in this way.

Yes, they are close to each other  
We call them as "hot Estonian guys" and plenty jokes in this way.

[AnastassiaAsh]

And back to the topic: Should men seek advice from RWD?

Yes. Absolutely. Tons of information and advice that is just necessary and if not known can totally "brake" a person. But I would also add - please pay closer attention to what RW themselves say on this board!

There is nothing wrong in seeking advice, and the more opinions you hear on this or that topic - the better. Simple common sense should be followed too.

[kgh]

Thanks AnastassiaAsh for bringing this topic back.  I have been on this forum for a few years and seldom post.

I want to make it completely clear to all the Women on this site that I really do appreciate what you write.  I want to hear your perspectives, ideas, thoughts... everything.  Please don't let a few inconsiderate people shut you down.  Also thank you Bored1 and RussianWind for speaking up.

I think women's posts are need to balance out the testosterone that sometimes is jaded.

Regards,
Kenny

[I/O]

I don't think the thread drifted too much. Seems the womenfolk were trying to explain why they see limited value in the advice or opinions of the forum members. RW know RW better than any WM could. WM could (perhaps do) claim likewise, that is they know self better than anyone. Is this true?

[Bored1]

I think I have tried to say as best as I can that because an AM has had 1 success or multiple fails or even a mix of results the AM cannot possible have the same knowledge of Russia or of RW as an RW.

For example I lived in Moscow almost 23 years.  AM man can match my knowledge of Moscow?  Unlikely I think.

I am a RW of almost 23 years and have schooled with many RW, know many more and have many RW family members.  I have almost 23 years experience of being a RW and living amongst RW of all types. 

Has any AM here been married to a RW 23 years?  If so it is to 1 RW and not exposure to RW such as we RW have had.

I am saying that new people come here and ask AM who may or may not be married to RW and may or may not have been to Russia and may or may not have even lived in Russia for several years but this cannot surely out way our experience of ourself over decades and yet when we point out their experience of RW is very small compared to our own and happen to dare to disagree with them based on our own life time experience we are not given the same credibility as an AM married to a RW for 5 years or an AM who has try any failed many times.

There is no secret that what is good for 1 person is not good for another.

There is no secret that what work for 1 will not work for another.

We are all different and the way many post speak of RW is generally quite distasteful.

We are cast as desperate to leave Russia - not true in many cases.  We are classed as wanting a green card or wanting money.  Again not always true.  We are classed as typically this or that when there is nothing typical about any person amongst the member RW or AM.

We are often set out in post as goods on display seeming available for purchase and to see as many as you can and then decide upon which you want to take home.  If such things were said about AW by foreign people they would be attacked on this forum saying AW were not commodity to be viewed in such a way.

When this point is made and people take offence one of a few things happen.  Either their English is wrong and it is pointed out really quite unecessary as English is not my native language.  If you can understand me and I can understand you it is enough, or because it does not meet the advice given by large ego which have been here a long time then it is quite simply dismissed.

I do not see how ignoring a RW, even if she meet the stereotype or not, can help anyone asking for advice over a RW.

I have been member for almost 9 month and have written only a few post.  The reason for this is that it does seem quite pointless to tell AM coming here that they should only really seek physical help with visa, hotel, taxi and such things.

Not 2 RW would react the same way to different AM (unless they were quite insulting) so why ask such questions.

I would understand questions such as what does a certain flower mean in Russian culture, or how many should I give and the signifant of the number given as they are beneficial to an AM to have made some effort into learning something of our culture.  These things are not missed by a RW if a foreign man understands it and gets it right. 

It is the fact that the foreign mans has taken time to find out such things that is appreciated.  He should though treat the RW as an individual and dismiss most other advice given here about how RW are.

It should be quite plane to see even from this forum that RW are not the same and that we also disagree with each other so how can anyone serious ask an AM with even more limit experience than we expect an answer to which to work from?

[RussianWind]

Seems the womenfolk were trying to explain why they see limited value in the advice or opinions of the forum members. RW know RW better than any WM could. WM could (perhaps do) claim likewise, that is they know self better than anyone. Is this true?

You know I find it very useful for myself to read posts of WM, to look at our country and culture through their eyes and it helps to understand you better. Mutual understanding, isn't it what we all are looking for?

You know I/O, since I joined that forum few years ago, my perception of life and people abroad very much changed through my own experience and reading your board opinions. I think if I read my posts few years back, I will find them naive at some point. 

[Jooky]

RW know RW better than any WM could. WM could (perhaps do) claim likewise, that is they know self better than anyone. Is this true?

No, because as some of the ladies pointed out above, there is no such thing as an RW. Everyone is individual. I can tell you what growing up and living in California was like for me. Someone living just down the block might have very different opinions and experiences, or they might have the same experiences but view them in a completely different light. And if you want to know what a foreigner experiences when coming to California for the first time, I'm probably not the person to ask.

It all depends on what type of information you seek. If I want to know about what it was like growing up in Russia, I ask a Russian. If I want to know what it might be like to date a Russian woman through a bridal agency, I ask someone who has done so.

Consider the original question:

Is it a good idea for men in international relationships to seek advice on relationships from the members of RWD?

Take out 'international'. When you seek relationship advice, what is more valuable, the advice of women or men? For me, it all depends on the individual, their situations, their experiences and how similar they are to mine.

My direct relationship experience with Western Men is… zero. I can only accurately say what it's like to be in a relationship with me.

Regarding stereotypes: I really don't see it on these boards. Newbies usually come perpetrating the agency stereotypes, and regular members shoot them down. Some negative stereotyping does occur with things such as 'Russian women are stubborn, tough, argumentative, they never say thanks, they never say sorry', but that all goes against what agencies have to say.

Should men seek relationship advice here? Good advice can be given even by someone who never follows it himself. So I say sure, just always consider the source.

[Jooky]

We are cast as desperate to leave Russia - not true in many cases.  We are classed as wanting a green card or wanting money.  Again not always true.

Do you see these sterotypes here, on this board, by the regular members?

We are often set out in post as goods on display seeming available for purchase and to see as many as you can and then decide upon which you want to take home.

Also, do you get this from reading this board? Can you point out or give examples of things said here that make you feel this way?

It should be quite plain to see even from this forum that RW are not the same

I agree, and that's why there is value in asking questions, however stupid, and sharing experiences, however individual. Without forums like this, there is only agency hype for men to go on.

[Misha]

For example I lived in Moscow almost 23 years.  AM man can match my knowledge of Moscow?  Unlikely I think.

Yes, your expertise about Moscow would be of course very good. But, from what I gather from the personal info provided, you are not married and have not immigrated to another country as you have indicated "Status: Looking 0-2 years." So, your knowledge about the experiences of culture shock and what some women go through during the immigration and integration process would be quite limited if the status you have indicated is correct.

Likewise, I can wager that there I have been to some locations in Russia that you have never heard of and could not even find on a map  

People share what they know and have experienced in forums. Sometimes they are useful simply as a means of release: when my wife was going through culture shock, I certainly wasn't going to go talk about this to my friends and family.  

Has any AM here been married to a RW 23 years?  If so it is to 1 RW and not exposure to RW such as we RW have had.

True, but if you are "looking" how much experience have you had in an intercultural marriage? It is one thing to have witnessed countless marriages of RM married to RW over 23 years, it is quite another to be married to someone from another country and culture and dealing with the difficulties that arise on a daily basis.

We are all different and the way many post speak of RW is generally quite distasteful.

I agree with you here.

We are cast as desperate to leave Russia - not true in many cases.  We are classed as wanting a green card or wanting money.

RW are not necessarily any better when it comes to this. Quite often RW are the most insistent that a RW is only interested in how much money a man earns and not other factors.

I do not see how ignoring a RW, even if she meet the stereotype or not, can help anyone asking for advice over a RW.

I am curious, are you referring to something specific that was posted recently or some incident whereby a RW was ignored and her advice rejected?

[Bored1]

Do you see these sterotypes here, on this board, by the regular members?

Quite honestly in certain threads there is often such stereotype comments by members new and old whether said in joke or not they are there to be seen and not often clearly idenified as a joke. So yes as a single RW I find many post rude or insensitve.  I never feel the need to make such comment either seriously or in joke and find it better to say nothing than be involved in the ego wars which always seem to start after such a post.

Also, do you get this from reading this board? Can you point out or give examples of things said here that make you feel this way?

Most come as a result of agency dating thread.  Posts such as have some back ups for seeing when you are there.  A man serious about finding a RW would join a Russian chat room or meeting site which has nothing to do with agency.  Our Facebook equivilants would be the best starting point and of course it is quite free.  There is more than time to speak with a woman on site such as vkontake and to get to know her well enough to only visit her when the time feel right.  Agency is a cattle market with pretty pictures on many occasion where nobody knows if they speak with man or woman in Russia.

It may be my understanding of English which is bad but words like have a plan, have a agenda, have a list of questions makes things sound like job interview and if I felt as though I was being interview for job as a wife I would have no interest in that man.

It sound quite cold and callous and make it feel as though if we are lucky to be offered such job we would happy to take it.  No thought seems given we may not like you and that you can simply go through your recruitment process and expect the one you chose to come home with you.

This forum is open to public to view if not join.  How many RW may read this site and see what is written about them and feel angry or embarassed by it?

It often seem the thread read like the woman must make an effort to prove she is not scam or after money or wanting green card through marriage.

I agree, and that's why there is value in asking questions, however stupid, and sharing experiences, however individual. Without forums like this, there is only agency hype for men to go on.

This is quite true but to often these thing are not written to say they are individual experience but is generally true of RW.  Without the qualify that it is a personal experience relating to RW it can and has seemed to be taken as true for all RW.

I speak only for me, but the reason I post little is I find the forum full of big ego of people who know very little about RW in reality or Russia and when RW says something which is not on the same line they are dismissed or ignored as knowing little of what the speak of or they are picked on for bad English or other minor English language mistakes in grammar.

I do not pretend to know anything much of America or American people having only visited.  I do not pretend to know much of AM having only briefly spent time with a few.  I therefore I do enter discussion or pretend I know much on such topics as my limit experience is of now value compaired to many AM posts.

It is because of this I do not understand why RW are not listened to for we surely have much more experience of RW and Russia and are surely at least equally aware of what it is like to be a RW and live here.

The forum at least for me and I speak only for me is quite hostile for a RW and it is why I post so little even if I read it much.

[I/O]

Bored: I (for the first time I have had time to do so) read this thread this evening (my time about 6 hrs ahead of Moscow time) and to be frank, I found it quite disturbing.

I actually don't agree with a number of points you have put forward, but that isn't important. What concerns me most of all is your assessment of the way men are thinking here. There are a number of us who have been at pains for years to dispel stupid myths regarding RW, want to leave Russia, bad life, baby machines etc. If what you say is correct and the WM here on this site are as you say, it saddens me no end because I can only say, we have failed miserably in our quest to present some truth.

Russian Wind (if her memory is as good as I think it is) can attest to my first ever post on any forum on this subject several years ago being a brutal and extensive beating up of a fellow countryman which went on for endless pages because he was so clueless and arrogant regarding what RW were and how they would be unable to compete with WW because they didn't know what they were up against and so forth. I was never much of a forum writer prior to that and certainly not on this subject. At the time of his ridiculous post, it was just too much. I felt someone had to point out the error of these guys way. BTW, that fool I beat up so badly had never and I believe to this day, has never been to or near Russia.

I find your comments intersting in contrast because I have always sought external opinion on my way of doing things, my country and so forth because I feel to look to ones own to make those assessments removes some objectivity. You see it another way, perhaps this is a demonstration of cultural difference? Sadly, if your assessment of men here is accurate and is representative of how RW would view it, this and other forums have pretty much been a waste of space.

You know I/O, since I joined that forum few years ago, my perception of life and people abroad very much changed through my own experience and reading your board opinions.

I hope in a positive sense?

I think if I read my posts few years back, I will find them naive at some point.

And..............you will probably say the same of your current postings in a few years time, that is just the cycle of life. "Growing" older as opposed to aging. Just wait till you get to my age..................... BTW, I hear what you are actually saying.

[Gylden]

I agree with what the RW are saying here. RW are IMO very well qualified and I personally value their opinion. Stereo typing is not wise, unfortunately things like the marriage agencies contribute immensly to stereo typing. As far as should men seek advice here. I think there is alot of imformation both here and generally on the internet and it is never a bad idea to try to become informed or enlightened. It is allways an individual choice though of which information should be considered as good or valid. It is ALLWAYS the way it happens anyway, some people make bad decissions based on bad advice and then tend to blame the advisor!!

When I need advice I allways ask my wife!! She is the smartest person I know and I trust her completely!! OK enough!!  

[Bored1]

Yes, your expertise about Moscow would be of course very good. But, from what I gather from the personal info provided, you are not married and have not immigrated to another country as you have indicated "Status: Looking 0-2 years." So, your knowledge about the experiences of culture shock and what some women go through during the immigration and integration process would be quite limited if the status you have indicated is correct.

Likewise, I can wager that there I have been to some locations in Russia that you have never heard of and could not even find on a map  

I do not claim and never have claimed to know everything about Russia but I do feel that living here for 23 years rather than visit for a month or 2 means I will know at least an equal amount about Russia or do you not agree?

True, but if you are "looking" how much experience have you had in an intercultural marriage? It is one thing to have witnessed countless marriages of RM married to RW over 23 years, it is quite another to be married to someone from another country and culture and dealing with the difficulties that arise on a daily basis.

I am not looking but I am not married either.  When I joined I did not see a possibilty which said anuthing neutral but being single I cannot say I was married.  I have no specific intention of marrying a foreign man but it maybe that I will.  I read the forum as I have family in the USA.
[/quote]

I am curious, are you referring to something specific that was posted recently or some incident whereby a RW was ignored and her advice rejected?

I say this as for me personally I find the board quite hostile and full of ego and member who want to pick on someone whenever they have the chance.  This fight will then continue into other thread and also the original thread will drag on and on with no real purpose to it.

It is quite hostile in this regard and I would not enter such a thread even if I had something worthy of saying as I would not want to be the next target for such egos.

[Gylden]

After reading my post I thought I should explaine.....whenI said "OK enough" it is a form of self censorship and not directed at anyone else 
One more thought I would like to share though. I don't find fault in anyone trying to make a better life, including wanting to move to another country. It is a good thing generally and indicates a certain intelligence IMO. When I was a boy we lived in the mid-west and my father was offered a much better job in California, so he moved us lock, stock and barrel. Californina was a whole different culture, climate etc. than the midwest. OK well that's my point how can someone look poorly on another for the desire to make an improvement?

[Misha]

I do not claim and never have claimed to know everything about Russia but I do feel that living here for 23 years rather than visit for a month or 2 means I will know at least an equal amount about Russia or do you not agree?

I am not disagreeing and agree that you would be quite knowledgeable about life in Russia. But, I will point out that Russian women have their biases as well. I would not believe at face value, for example, what a woman from Moscow has to say about life outside of Moscow, much less life in Siberia, the Russian North or God forbid a Russian "village"   And I have seen RW more than happy to share their stereotypes about Ukrainian women on other forums  

I say this as for me personally I find the board quite hostile and full of ego and member who want to pick on someone whenever they have the chance.  This fight will then continue into other thread and also the original thread will drag on and on with no real purpose to it.

It is the nature of the beast IMHO. Are there any forums where there are no egos and no hostility?

[Bored1]

It is the nature of the beast IMHO. Are there any forums where there are no egos and no hostility?

Indeed you are probably right.  But it does not encourage anyone expecially a RW like me with limited English to offer genuine and well nature help in the middle of it to just become a next target and yet nobody seems to care and what maybe helpfull advice is not given because of it.

I have many occasion written a post to help someone and then not put it on the forum because the tread has been dominated by fighting and not want to become a traget.

It is of no loss to me it was not post of course.

As I have said it is only my view that the forum is hostile and RW are not spoken of with sufficient respect when it is general statements.  I agree that many such post are relating to agency womans if they are really womans writing to the mans but it is the womans written about and not the agency in many times.

I would not comment upon individual circumstance unless I know the perosn involved or it was a administrative issue in Russia I could find out about.

That is just me though and we are all as I have said many times in this thread different.

[Misha]

As I have said it is only my view that the forum is hostile and RW are not spoken of with sufficient respect when it is general statements.

I agree with you, and I am sometimes amazed to see men who have never met any RW or at best a few RW at best claim speaking with such expertise about all RW  I do find that very odd.

[LEGAL]

Wow my post just disappeared Why? I guess somebody didn't like my opinion.

[Admin]

Wow my post just disappeared Why?

Oops. Hit the wrong button. Meant to hit "Quote" and managed to hit "Remove."

- Dan

[LEGAL]

Hey Dan maybe that's why Olga and I can't  PM. Off for coffee

[Gator]

Bored,

Hang in here.  In my opinion, RW collectively offer superb insights. The key word is collectively.

You are young and I would think you would give very useful information on culture, universities, night life, etc.  However, what could you tell me about marrying a RW with a child and the adjustment they would go through upon arriving in America?  Only married AM and RW with children could really explain the issues. 

The value of a discussion forum is to start with a question and discuss it at length from various perspectives. 

No vote is taken to determine the correct answer. 

No prize is given for the most intelligent answer. 

It boils down to this:  The person asking the question decides what is the best answer for his/her situation.

[Gator]

There is no secret that what work for 1 will not work for another…..We are all different....

Absolutely true.   

We are cast as desperate to leave Russia - not true in many cases. 

Some RW are indeed desperate, yet the general advice is for men to avoid them and instead focus on RW with choices. 

We are often set out in post as goods on display seeming available for purchase and to see as many as you can and then decide upon which you want to take home. 

Often?  Sometimes, yes.  Stupid men get this thought after reading myths portrayed by marriage agencies marketing their services.  Men who select a RW wife the same as buying a chenuk (puppy dog) will quickly learn that he can not put a collar and leash on her.

I would not comment upon individual circumstance unless I know the perosn involved or it was a administrative issue in Russia I could find out about.

I think you are wrong to stay silent.  No one knows the individual circumstance, so all of us must speculate.  I rather hear an educated guess than a WAG (wild ass guess).   The more people who join a discussion, the better the discussion ultimately.

[brave girl]

I speak only for me, but the reason I post little is I find the forum full of big ego of people who know very little about RW in reality or Russia and when RW says something which is not on the same line they are dismissed or ignored as knowing little of what the speak of or they are picked on for bad English or other minor English language mistakes in grammar.

I agree.  

[BC]

Quote from: Bored1 on Today at 13:21:06

I speak only for me, but the reason I post little is I find the forum full of big ego of people who know very little about RW in reality or Russia and when RW says something which is not on the same line they are dismissed or ignored as knowing little of what the speak of or they are picked on for bad English or other minor English language mistakes in grammar.

I agree.  

It all boils down to language/communication IMHO.

Those that have lived with a FSUW for an extended period of time seem to best understand the actual intent of a woman's post, regardless of how and which words are used.  The casual reader may comprehend something totally different.  I've seen it happen time and time again.

Apply a good bit 'benefit of doubt', think more intent than literal.

[Blues Fairy]

As I have said it is only my view that the forum is hostile and RW are not spoken of with sufficient respect when it is general statements.

Allow me to disagree.  RWD, in my opinion, is one of the most respectful forums I've seen, whether to RW posters or speaking of RW in general.  Most instances of open hostility I've observed here were caused by a Russian poster making a generalized statement with an air of "I know it better than any of you because I am Russian"; other members debunking the generalization; and the original poster taking personal offense, accusing everyone of hostility, and storming out.  A typical scenario.