Should men seek advice from RWD?

[GQBlues]

Bored1-

I have never met such a mans and if I did our meetings would last less than 1 minute.    

Would it shock you to know that that is exactly the advice men give to other men when they first travel to Russia to meet the woman of their dreams? To make that even worst, they'll tell the man to hide this from all the women because what the women don't know shouldn't really matter. How's that for showing respect for Russian women, eh? Especially one you have plans on possibly marrying. LOL.

My experience with foreign mans has been in America and Moscow and not one experience has been the same.  How can I give advice on such things when my experience with each mans has been different other than to say follow your head and your heart as I do not know anything of your mans?

I agree but a man can also offer an opinion based on his personal experience simply to give the other person 'an idea' of what may happen in his journey. What I readily agree with what you said upthread is there is a greater benefit for people to share information regarding travel info, visas, accomodations, etc...

It is when personal advice are structured to a finite model dealing with individual and inter-personal relations that I believe becomes pretty silly. Especially knowing these advice is coming from men you do not know nor have any idea how they conduct their own personal lives.

I see no problem with writing to any mans on the internet if you wish to talk with him but I would not enter into any discussion with someone I have not met with the specific purpose of romance or marriage.

I agree. That's exactly what I have done. But other people do things differently and it doesn't mean it has no merit.

When I was in LA I did not have one mans number other than family should I become lost.  There seem no point for a RW to need one mans number there so definitely no need for several back up number as the mans seem to be able to find me quite easy when I was there.  

Yeah, that must be terrible! Don't you just hate it everytime that happens?    In LA, or anywhere else for that matter, as long as you're female and cute - it matters little where you're from. Next time, go to Manhattan Beach if you have the time.

But seriously, the ironic thing about that is knowing it only takes but one out of the many, isn't it?

[Bored1]

I am certainly female but I think cute is a matter of opinion for the mans 

[dogspot]

Would it shock you to know that that is exactly the advice men give to other men when they first travel to Russia to meet the woman of their dreams? To make that even worst, they'll tell the man to hide this from all the women because what the women don't know shouldn't really matter. How's that for showing respect for Russian women, eh? Especially one you have plans on possibly marrying. LOL.

Let's face it, whether home or abroad, this is the reality of dating. People are most likely going to be seeing other people in the early stages of dating. You seem intent on wanting to put a negative spin on MEN meeting multiple RW on their visits when in reality the RW are meeting other guys as well. IMO, the only way a man is showing disrespect for a woman is if he is contacting or visiting other women after a relationship is established. Really, it is neither the business of the man or the woman if the other is seeing other people on the first, second or even third date.

[Gator]

You seem intent on wanting to put a negative spin on MEN meeting multiple RW on their visits when in reality the RW are meeting other guys as well.

Dogspot, this is an issue debated as much as age gap.  You perhaps should ask GQ how many RW he met on his first trip. :evil: 

I assume GQ's main point is about deception, and I agree that is a bad way to start a relationship.  Also, GQ was just meeting RW casually as part of a travel and tourism trip, and during correspondence he did not lead any RW to think she was his dream woman (IIRC).

GQ wrote a sensational trip report, long disappeared at RWG.  And I was there along with Donna Pedro and my future wife to share a piva at a Chucky Cheese knockoff.  GQ was a very tired boy.

[KenC]

Let's face it, whether home or abroad, this is the reality of dating. People are most likely going to be seeing other people in the early stages of dating. You seem intent on wanting to put a negative spin on MEN meeting multiple RW on their visits when in reality the RW are meeting other guys as well. IMO, the only way a man is showing disrespect for a woman is if he is contacting or visiting other women after a relationship is established. Really, it is neither the business of the man or the woman if the other is seeing other people on the first, second or even third date.

dogspot,
I agree 100%.  I see nothing nefarious about going to the fsu to meet multiple women which may or may not lead to establishing a future relationship.  It's called dating!  "Don't ask, don't tell" is common place or even a courtesy in the initial dating phase of a budding relationship.  IMO, this is where AM and RW get off track.  Are the men going over to meet women that they may eventually be interested in marrying, or are they going to fill a wife vacancy?  Same logic (or lack of logic) also applies to the RW.  Maybe the long term goal is to find a partner to marry, but it should not replace the many steps required to get to that point. 

If we were to use logic  , there is absolutely nothing wrong with making the acquaintance of many fsu women in order to sort out the possibility of a romantic relationship evolving in the future.  Even after, the first introductions, I see nothing wrong with the women or men pursuing a romantic interest in multiple partners.  Where and when a couple becomes exclusive is entirely up to the couple.  It sure in Hell should not be on the first semi-blind date.
KenC

[UTRO]

Smiling: not much different than in the US. Please and Thank You: the same. Cashiers, waitresses and clerks use these words as a matter of habit. It's either You're Welcome (pozhaluista) or Thank You Too (spasibo vam). That's some of my observations...

Holy! I must be visiting a different Russia than you Jooky......... in general 

But I accept it, with a smile , as all cultures and nationalities are different.

I have always been led to believe that many Russians see us smiling and 'polite' foreign men as either phony, weak, mentally challenged or 'blue boyish'  :kissing:

Oh how many times this topic has been covered here!!

[I/O]

IMO, this is where AM and RW get off track.

KenC: Frankly I think you're floggin' a dead horse on this one and have been for as long as I've known you because you're preachin' to the wrong crowd. It isn't the western men you need to educate because most of them agree with you, it is the Russian Women you should be projecting to if you really want to change things. I wouldn't give you great chances of success but you're welcome to try. 

Well meaning and even maybe correct to an extent though you are, you are MISSING (or choosing to) the point being made by Bored1 for example. You may be right but by whose standards? Yours, mine, international or Russian? The hunt is where? And the majority of RW don't see it the way you (anyone arguing this line) do. This is what Bored1 for example is trying to say. You can cut it up how you like, those (RW) who have placed a profile on a site or whatever and taken the time to talk to you, prepare for and agree to meeting you are NOT simply looking for a casual, try and see date. For the most part, they have set their hopes higher. If by lining up a couple of options you really think you are not running a serious risk of offending that hope, then you (anyone) is trying to enforce their social norms in another country. That isn't going to win points anywhere, much less amongst the fierce pride of Russians. Whether or not the RW are right or wrong, is not yours or my call to make.

I only wish jb were still writing here, he formed part of a quite brilliant expose' on this one and why RW (mostly) don't see the "dating" thing in the same light as most westerners do.

There are two arguments which support the "right" of the western man to go the multi date road in Russia. 1) Cost in money and time of visiting. Therefore he should be entitled to maximise his exposure. 2) She's doin' that anyway, she's seein' other guys anyway so it's only fair right? Wrong. "Rights" and "Fair" don't come into play until much later. That's how it is and yes she'll cut you loose in the first 3 minutes of meeting if she chooses and won't bat an eyelid for your time and expense. That's how it is, like it or not. That's the risk. In this caper, guys take the big risks up front and girls take their big risks at the other end (by moving abroad with nobody other than him for support).

FWIW. Most men seem to actually understand this as demonstrated by the countless threads wherein men seek advice as to how to juggle the many without telling and advise each other on turning themselves into contortions to do so.  All that said, the street front agency presents a very 'nother arena for those who wish to go that way.

[RussianWind]

I'll it my business you little Russian Tart you!!!!!

"thank you for your compliment!  I only chat with 12 inches or more. Do you have a webcam?"

 

[GQBlues]

dogspot-

Intentionally or otherwise, what you extracted out of your post to present your point (KenC too) is the most important part of my point. BACK-UPS, names and numbers of other women you compiled to contact and date in the event the woman you specifically came to FSU for didn't work out.

You either go to FSU as a man poised to meet multiple women, or a man scheduled to meet only one. There is no in between and there should not be any confusion in that distinction. No one obligates you meet only one or meet many. It is your choice and if the woman, or women, of interest are aware and willing to take that step with you, you should as any sane man would do - do it and do it accordingly.

What I do not agree with, nor understand, is how men corresponds to any one woman, and in the course of their correspondence make the woman believe - either expressed, implied, deceived, or lied to; that he is coming to FSU in the implicit purpose of meeting ONLY her. Women will often ask you straight out if you are writing or meeting her and her alone. The fault I tag as a disrespect is when men either a) lie, or b) deflect the Q and leave it unanswered because they already planned and arranged to meet other women. It matters little to me whether these women's existence hinder in how your experiences with your inamorata pans out. It's a cop-out, it's a deception, and it's silly.

You don't agree or believe me that this is disrespectful - ask your woman what she thinks about it (if you in fact did this), or else, ask back-up woman 'a', 'b', or 'c', etc...If you are confident there's nothing wrong with it - then I dare you. If you believe this is right but cannot however place yourself to ask that question to these women, then ask yourself why? Show me a woman who will welcome and embraced this deception and I'll show you a woman I would not want to have any part of.

If men cannot come to grips that there's a possibility of flaming out with their target of affection when they meet in person, then don't commit to meeting only one. If men cannot come to grips that there's always a possibility that they'll get back home empty-handed, then they better set life's priorities a little better and take a dose of introspection.

I am indifferent as to whether or not you agree with my sentiment, but at the same token I reserve the right, just as you do upon your own, to opine acts like such as being disrespectful to these women.

It boggles me to no end how AM/WMs openly declare the evils of AWs/WWs and thus justifies why they are searching in FSU, but then their first act of romance is deceive a woman the first chance they get. Now how silly is that?

[KenC]

GQ,
You are making some big assumptions in your position.  The biggest IMO is that some sort of deep relationship has already been established prior to visiting.  Even if a "friendship" or the beginning of a friendship has been established as much as one can be so via the Net, so what?  As long as the two of you have not picked out the names for your future children, then it is a "come see what happens" adventure.

I agree that going to visit one woman that you have earmarked for a potential wife with back up addys in your back pocket is a less than sincere attempt.  But if they are ALL backups, what's the harm?

When I first went to meet Lena, she and I had become friends via our phone calls, but just friends, nothing romantic at all.  She understood well that I was going to meet other RW on my trip and had not a problem with it.  The other women I scheduled to meet were all well aware that I was not coming to spend my time exclusively with them either.  I met the others, had a few dinners with some and even took another to a New Years party, which we all know is a big deal.  But it wasn't a big deal, that we did not click at the party either.  All in all I met maybe 10 other women in total.  All showed great interest in moving forward with me, but I only had eyes for Lena.  I treated the women well, enjoyed their company and even gave a few a token gift.  I thanked them for their time, wished them well in their search, and was a gentleman in excusing myself from consideration.  Where is the harm?  Where is the foul? :noidea:
KenC

It boggles me to no end how AM/WMs openly declare the evils of AWs/WWs and thus justifies why they are searching in FSU, but then their first act of romance is deceive a woman the first chance they get. Now how silly is that?

  How on earth is it a "deception" if you did not promise anything but to meet and see what happens?

[Mars]

dogspot,
I agree 100%. 

And I second this 100%.  One of the biggest problems in keeping many men from finding the right woman and keeping many women from finding the right man is this totally unrealistic point of view by many FSUW that the man must come to see only them.

[Mars]

dogspot-

Intentionally or otherwise, what you extracted out of your post to present your point (KenC too) is the most important part of my point. BACK-UPS, names and numbers of other women you compiled to contact and date in the event the woman you specifically came to FSU for didn't work out.

You either go to FSU as a man poised to meet multiple women, or a man scheduled to meet only one. There is no in between and there should not be any confusion in that distinction. No one obligates you meet only one or meet many. It is your choice and if the woman, or women, of interest are aware and willing to take that step with you, you should as any sane man would do - do it and do it accordingly.

What I do not agree with, nor understand, is how men corresponds to any one woman, and in the course of their correspondence make the woman believe - either expressed, implied, deceived, or lied to; that he is coming to FSU in the implicit purpose of meeting ONLY her. Women will often ask you straight out if you are writing or meeting her and her alone. The fault I tag as a disrespect is when men either a) lie, or b) deflect the Q and leave it unanswered because they already planned and arranged to meet other women. It matters little to me whether these women's existence hinder in how your experiences with your inamorata pans out. It's a cop-out, it's a deception, and it's silly.

You don't agree or believe me that this is disrespectful - ask your woman what she thinks about it (if you in fact did this), or else, ask back-up woman 'a', 'b', or 'c', etc...If you are confident there's nothing wrong with it - then I dare you. If you believe this is right but cannot however place yourself to ask that question to these women, then ask yourself why? Show me a woman who will welcome and embraced this deception and I'll show you a woman I would not want to have any part of.

If men cannot come to grips that there's a possibility of flaming out with their target of affection when they meet in person, then don't commit to meeting only one. If men cannot come to grips that there's always a possibility that they'll get back home empty-handed, then they better set life's priorities a little better and take a dose of introspection.

I am indifferent as to whether or not you agree with my sentiment, but at the same token I reserve the right, just as you do upon your own, to opine acts like such as being disrespectful to these women.

It boggles me to no end how AM/WMs openly declare the evils of AWs/WWs and thus justifies why they are searching in FSU, but then their first act of romance is deceive a woman the first chance they get. Now how silly is that?

A particularly below the belt and disingenuous argument you put forth.

First, you play up to the men by saying you realize it is the only logical thing to do; and then set forth the righteous thing to do by simply telling the women.

But you know full well that by telling the women, that a large majority of them will drop the guy instantly.  Kind of like telling a kid that it is dangerous to cross the Interstate on foot, but that it is the quickest way home if he does it.  A sure slaughter.

The women set up this ridiculous situation by their insistence on the WOVO approach so the man can spend the money and scarce vacation time in order to be rejected by the woman as he steps off the plane.  Thus, it is a no-win situation for any man who tries to do the honorable thing as you propose.

[Vaughn]

One of the biggest problems in keeping many men from finding the right woman and keeping many women from finding the right man is this totally unrealistic point of view by many FSUW that the man must come to see only them.

The women set up this ridiculous situation by their insistence on the WOVO approach...

Mars, it sure looks like you resent a woman's preference to exclusivity. Some of them just won't
agree to standing in a chorus line. That's the way it is. It's not ridiculous nor unrealistic to them.

[KenC]

Mars, it sure looks like you resent a woman's preference to exclusivity. Some of them just won't
agree to standing in a chorus line. That's the way it is. It's not ridiculous nor unrealistic to them.

Wow, Vaughn,
Who would want to stand in a chorus line as you say?  What a tainted way to put things.  It shows your take on things rather clearly.  With the implied disrespect of your statement, please explain to me how what I proposed in my last post is in any way disrespectful to the women I met?

Me thinks you may be a bit brainwashed, sir.  There is a huge difference between going to meet multiple women than just one with back ups as you imply and GQ states.  It is very dependent upon how deeply involved you are with the woman or women you have communicated with prior to going over.  A man can wade through the profiles and eliminate all potential candidates except one and try to develop whatever kind of "relationship" can be developed via the phone and Net taking the huge risk that the "virtual" relationship doesn't disintegrate upon first eye to eye meeting (or shortly thereafter.)  OR he may choose to do the final whittling down of his list of interesting women face to face.

It is up to the man to set the proper expectations of his future trip.  It is disingenuous to communicate with talk of love, marriage and a future life together to multiple women.  So?  Don't do that.  Quite simple, really.  Speak of how interesting she is or how you would very much like to meet her in person and share some time with her.  The phrase "kissing a lot of frogs....." swings both ways.   If the expectations are to meet and even have a date and no more, where is the deception?

The Internet is a wonderful and amazing tool to meet others, but most misuse it in a way that it is incapable of providing.  Just ask the hundreds of men that fell in love over the Net only to find that their princess was really just a frog with good Internet skills.  Or more likely, the men that have fantasized the perfect woman before seeing her face to face.  And don't kid yourself, we ALL (men & women) start out in a chorus line of sorts.
KenC

[Bored1]

I will say this as my own view only once again.

If I was told by a mans he was coming to see me and then discover he was seeing other womans also I would not even meet him.

If I meet him and then discover this I would say goodbye immediately and leave.

I see no good reason for a mans to come all the way to Russia without having identified the woman he truly wants.  By the time he comes to Russia he should be quite certain in his belief in her or why waste the time and money.

If he is not certain and wants to meet many womans then it is simply a holiday and he should say that it is a holiday and would see her if she is free and if she was not it would not matter.

To give the idea that a mans comes a long way at much expense to specifically see a particular RW has much meaning and is quite possible the most romantic thing done in such a process until any marriage.

To come and meet many womans simply shows the mans is not as confident in the womans as he makes her believe.  If he is not so confident he should not comes until he is.

If I was to travel all ways to USA to see a mans it would be only to see that mans.  If he not like me then so be it.  If I want to simply date many mans I will stay in Russia and save the monies and time of such a trip.

For me to go to USA with the intention of seeing many mans to see which I liked best is nothing but shoppings.

Again this is my view as a RW.  As I say many times no 2 RW are the same.

The original question of this thread was should mans seek advice from RWD and again I must return to how I view things as a RW.  The advice given by some AM is still to see coming to Russia as normal datings.  How can it be normal datings when you travel a much monies to a country you cannot speak the language or read alphabet?  

It is not normal dating for a RW to travel at much monies to another county where they do not speak the language so how can the AM expect many RW to see it this way?

What is seeming normal to AMs is most not normal to RW in this respect and the fact you comes all this ways implies if you like it or not that you have more serious intentions than you may.  The fact you make arrangement with a RW coming all this ways to meet you implies such serious intentions unless you qualify this by stating you comes on holiday and would meet if the opportunity is there.

In this regard you then take away many of the implications that the RW has of being the reason for your coming and the expectations are not so high.

It is not so hards to find a mans in Moscow with many womans phone number so you are just another mans if you come with this plan and are discover.

[BC]

The women set up this ridiculous situation by their insistence on the WOVO approach so the man can spend the money and scarce vacation time in order to be rejected by the woman as he steps off the plane.  Thus, it is a no-win situation for any man who tries to do the honorable thing as you propose.

I submit that if the man is worried about burning up his funds or scarce vacation time he's probably over his head to begin with.

Not doing the honorable thing is taking a shortcut and adding even more risk factors for rejection.

Get what you pray for thing.

If you have a laptop and internet access that's probably all the backup you need.

[Turboguy]

I submit that if the man is worried about burning up his funds or scarce vacation time he's probably over his head to begin with.

Not doing the honorable thing is taking a shortcut and adding even more risk factors for rejection.

To me that sounds like it is said by someone who has not had a WOVO go bad. 

I had lots of trips that were disasters.   I got off the plane to find someone who in letters seemed wonderful but in real life either there was not an iota of chemistry, the woman had a temper like the devil, was a scammer or serial dater or a total alcoholic. 

Exactly how much is the woman gambling on this fantasy pen pal she is meeting.  She may have asked for a few days off work, maybe not.  She may have bought some new clothes, maybe not.  She may have made a trip to the airport to meet him and rearranged her plans.   Not much anyway. 

Exactly how much is the man gambling on chasing this dream girl?   Well thousands in airfare, hotels, visas, lost wages, using fixed vacation time that may be all he gets for a year.

I was never big on meeting 3 women each day for a couple of weeks but had enough bad experiences that dong a WOVO was not acceptable.   I only did one towards the end of my search and it turned out to be the biggest disaster of all my trips and actually was a forum romance that happened on RWD and which I never talked about.  I will talk about it now a bit.   My trip started off as one to meet 5 women.  As this internet romance developed I kept cancelling meetings until it turned into a WOVO.   When we met, it took all of 10 minutes for her to decide we had no chemistry.  I ended up with a totally wasted trip and passed on some plans to meet what could have been some women with good prospects.   

I always liked to limit my first visit to 2-3 days and tell the woman I was meeting that it would give us a chance to get to know each other a little and if the meeting went will I would quickly come back and spend a much longer time with them.  I never went out of my way to tell them I was meeting other women but would answer honestly if they asked and most didn't.   I have had anyone refuse to meet me over it. 

I am sure that many women who men do a WOVO meeting with are meeting someone else or manybe many men a few weeks later.   

[KenC]

I will say this as my own view only once again.

Your opinion is your opinion and I respect it with an open mind, please consider mine too.

If I was told by a mans he was coming to see me and then discover he was seeing other womans also I would not even meet him.

If I meet him and then discover this I would say goodbye immediately and leave.

It is perfectly acceptable that some women will feel this way.  I would also agree that if some sort of deception is involved, he probably isn't good relationship material.

I see no good reason for a mans to come all the way to Russia without having identified the woman he truly wants.  By the time he comes to Russia he should be quite certain in his belief in her or why waste the time and money.

If he is not certain and wants to meet many womans then it is simply a holiday and he should say that it is a holiday and would see her if she is free and if she was not it would not matter.

  These two statements appear to contradict each other with the second confirming my point.  If it is acceptable to meet him without any deep commitment because he will be on holiday in your area, then you agree with my thoughts.  I understand that there would be no deep commitment either way in such a meeting.  The only thing agreed to is that they would meet and see if they were further interested in each other.  BTW, that is the way ALL first meetings are, no matter how well developed the couple thinks their virtual relationship has become.

Why should a man have to make the decision that any woman is "the one" prior to meeting her face to face?  Would not both the man and woman be more sure in a relationship developed in real time than via electronic methods?

To give the idea that a mans comes a long way at much expense to specifically see a particular RW has much meaning and is quite possible the most romantic thing done in such a process until any marriage.

  There is plenty of time for a romantic courtship after meeting face to face.  I am not saying my methods would eliminate any of it, just that the wooing would begin after meeting and not before.

To come and meet many womans simply shows the mans is not as confident in the womans as he makes her believe.  If he is not so confident he should not comes until he isIf I was to travel all ways to USA to see a mans it would be only to see that mans.  If he not like me then so be it.  If I want to simply date many mans I will stay in Russia and save the monies and time of such a trip

.  OK, Bored1, let us say that you have a trip planned to visit your aunt and uncle in California.  A week or two before your trip, you "meet" a nice young man via the Net that lives close to your relatives.  What would be the harm in arranging a coffee date or even a day where he might take you to a local museum?  Keep in mind that you are not going through all the expense and trouble of your trip for him, but just set aside some time to meet him.  Or even just agree to have him call you when you are in his town to see if you could meet and do something together if it can be comfortably arranged?

For me to go to USA with the intention of seeing many mans to see which I liked best is nothing but shoppings.

  Ahh, so it is the intentions that are important?   This may surprise you, but I agree.  A man coming to Russia should not be "shopping" for a wife.  But it should be perfectly acceptable for his goal to meet many interesting people and enjoy the culture and country.  If he happens to meet a woman that sparks his romantic interest while there, all the better.

If you are single and unattached and interested in eventually being together romantically with another at some point in your life, would it not be wise to keep your eyes open to all possibilities regardless of where you were at any given time?  You can label it "shopping" but is it not just a natural mate selection that we have inborn?

Again this is my view as a RW. As I say many times no 2 RW are the same.

The original question of this thread was should mans seek advice from RWD and again I must return to how I view things as a RW.  The advice given by some AM is still to see coming to Russia as normal datings.  How can it be normal datings when you travel a much monies to a country you cannot speak the language or read alphabet? 

It is not normal dating for a RW to travel at much monies to another county where they do not speak the language so how can the AM expect many RW to see it this way?

  All very good points and questions.  It has been the subjects of many discussions here too.  Fortunately, there are many interpreters/guides that have made themselves available.  On my first trip to Russia, I took a day to drag my interpreter (assigned to me by a marrage agency) on a sight seeing trip to your great city of Moscow.  Why would it be OK to you if I had met a lady in Moscow while sight seeing and not OK to meet the ladies at the agency?

What is seeming normal to AMs is most not normal to RW in this respect and the fact you comes all this ways implies if you like it or not that you have more serious intentions than you may.  The fact you make arrangement with a RW coming all this ways to meet you implies such serious intentions unless you qualify this by stating you comes on holiday and would meet if the opportunity is there.

In this regard you then take away many of the implications that the RW has of being the reason for your coming and the expectations are not so high.

  You EXACTLY prove my point here Bored1.  It is very important for the man NOT to set the expectations of the woman too high prior to meeting the first time.  To do so, would be deceptive and not acceptable.

It is not so hards to find a mans in Moscow with many womans phone number so you are just another mans if you come with this plan and are discover.

  I may not perfectly understand your meaning here, but will attempt a response.   When the expectations are set properly low in first meetings, I would not expect a woman to give me a high priority in return either.  I would need to be flexible around her schedule too.  If a man is looking for a casual meeting then he should also be prepared to have a casual response from the woman.  Now if there should be some mutual sparks from this casual meeting, then all bets are off!

You see Bored1, I am not trying to eliminate the romance or the time and effort it takes to court a woman from a foreign country.  In fact, I am adding a step in that the first trip would be nothing much more than meeting and getting to know the woman a little and she getting to know you a little.  There will be plenty of time for some deep meaningful correspondence after the first meeting and before the second trip.  I just question how meaningful any correspondence can be without meeting face to face first.
KenC

[Turboguy]

Ken, that is a well thought out response and provides a lot of food for thought.  However, I have to wonder how accurate is really is.  I do think most of the men making a trip are not sightseeing and most of the women who are meeting men from abroad are not looking for a friend and to learn about other cultures. 

I have had lots of times that I developed a lot of rapport and strong feelings based solely on emails.  (well maybe a few beautiful photos as well).   I think as Bored mentions you do go in the hopes that the fantasy's you have created in your mind and she has inspired with her emails and phone calls will turn out to be reality.  Most often they don't.  Spending an extended period of time with someone you have no real connection to is really difficult and uncomfortable.    In a perfect world you would find what you were looking for with that person you built up the chemistry with and Bored is right.   A WOVO would be the way to go but the world is not perfect and neither are the people in it.  Most WOVO's are a bust.  Some guys get lucky and the first one turns out to be perfect but that is the exception.

I do agree that if everyone adopted the attitude you talk about this venture would be much easier on the wallet and the heart.  Everyone should go with few expectations and an open mind.  I do think you did do that when you went to see Lena and that is great.  I don't think that is the mindset of most when they make a trip.

I do think that if a woman and a man have built a lot of chemistry before the trip that she has a right to expect more than an afternoon coffee date and they should spend enough time to know if they are right for each other or not but I think the first trip is to find out what chemistry and compatibility exists between two people when they meet in real life and until then they are only pen pals.  Men have enough money and time invested that meeting only one woman is a big mistake.

[BC]

To me that sounds like it is said by someone who has not had a WOVO go bad. 

Yep, you are right.

1. I wouldn't go jetting halfway around the world to date someone I had not met, much less many I had not met..  Much more comfy at home.

2. I never dated with the intent of marriage..  Why ruin a good thing.

3. Life has provided for me quite well in many ways, so I never felt the need to 'force the issue' when it comes to relationships.  I just trust whatever life has in store for me.  I simply let them happen and without any pressure.  Dry spells were relatively short and often at times in my life when I needed solace and introspect.  I have found that seeking what "I want" only causes trouble.

I did go visit my wife after we dated a couple of times, MOVO if you will..  Had things gone south I wouldn't have had any problem finding other things to do, and believe me seeking a marriage partner would have been the very last on my list.

I guess I view marriage as an unforeseen result, rather than a goal.  If you find yourself paddling upstream with a woman, relax and change direction.

By all means guys, go have some adventurous dates but you'll be much better off not seeking marriage.

quello che sarà,sarà.. worked well for me near a half a century so far..  I see no reason at all to start doubting a good thing.

[Turboguy]

2. I never dated with the intent of marriage..  Why ruin a good thing.

 

[Vaughn]

Wow, Vaughn,
Who would want to stand in a chorus line as you say?  What a tainted way to put things.  It shows your take on things rather clearly.  With the implied disrespect of your statement, please explain to me how what I proposed in my last post is in any way disrespectful to the women I met?

Huh? I never meant to imply dating many is disrespectful at all. I was just commenting on Mars' resentment
that there are, in fact, many ladies who feel this way. Your approach was actually quite normal, and respectful in
all ways. I was a very fortunate WOVO - with a fishing expedition in Arkhangelsk as my back-up plan. Had I wound
up fishing the northern waters, my second journey would likely have mirrored your own style of meeting more than
one woman.

By no means am I "brainwashed" thinking my luck is the only way to go - in fact, many times I've recommended
that WM visit more than a few - within a workable geographic area ie- NOT spend all their precious ground time
traveling between Republics. But when I see new guys here comfy with the calculated risk of a WOVO, I give
them encouragement to see it through.

"Chorus line" is not a negative implication by me personally, but that's just how some ladies react knowing they
are Date #3 or 5 - and while that's a shame, it does exist.  

[Mars]

I submit that if the man is worried about burning up his funds or scarce vacation time he's probably over his head to begin with.

You have a leg to stand on with respect to the money angle, but quite a stretch to bring in the vacation time.  In your ideal, only men with extra ordinary vacation time should get involved.

Also, I respect your experience and comments on many topics, however I think you would do us all a favor if in each of your posts (you could put it in your byline) that you are not speaking from the general framework of men who are traveling to a different county in this venture.  You did it from an 'in-country' viewpoint. 

That alone makes a lot (most?) of your comments quite irrelevant for the average guy.

[Bored1]

Your opinion is your opinion and I respect it with an open mind, please consider mine too.

I do not see that I have disrespect your position but if I have appeared so then I apologise.  Maybe it is my bad English and ability to communicate which has caused this.

It is perfectly acceptable that some women will feel this way.  I would also agree that if some sort of deception is involved, he probably isn't good relationship material.  These two statements appear to contradict each other with the second confirming my point.  If it is acceptable to meet him without any deep commitment because he will be on holiday in your area, then you agree with my thoughts.  I understand that there would be no deep commitment either way in such a meeting.  The only thing agreed to is that they would meet and see if they were further interested in each other. 

My response was initially to GQ statment that the men had professed love for these women before coming when they also had a list of back up womans.

I tried to say after that if on holidays and no such statement had been made to womans then that is OK.  I doubt many RWs would take the mans seriously if he say he is on holidays but of course many would meet him if he was here saying he was on holidays as it is quite a neutral statements and implies nothing more than that.

Why should a man have to make the decision that any woman is "the one" prior to meeting her face to face?  Would not both the man and woman be more sure in a relationship developed in real time than via electronic methods?
  There is plenty of time for a romantic courtship after meeting face to face.  I am not saying my methods would eliminate any of it, just that the wooing would begin after meeting and not before.

Again my reply was in response to GQ statement he had already stated to the womans firm intetions towards her.

OK, Bored1, let us say that you have a trip planned to visit your aunt and uncle in California.  A week or two before your trip, you "meet" a nice young man via the Net that lives close to your relatives.  What would be the harm in arranging a coffee date or even a day where he might take you to a local museum?  Keep in mind that you are not going through all the expense and trouble of your trip for him, but just set aside some time to meet him.  Or even just agree to have him call you when you are in his town to see if you could meet and do something together if it can be comfortably arranged?

There would no no harms but yet again my response was to GQ statement the masn ahd already made firm intentions towards the womans.

I my case as I have already said I would not meet a mans from the internet with the intention of romance or physical relationships.  I will state again my circumstance does not really allow me to do so.

  Ahh, so it is the intentions that are important?   This may surprise you, but I agree.  A man coming to Russia should not be "shopping" for a wife.  But it should be perfectly acceptable for his goal to meet many interesting people and enjoy the culture and country.  If he happens to meet a woman that sparks his romantic interest while there, all the better.

Yes it is the intentions and my responses were made to GQ's statement about such intentions.

If you are single and unattached and interested in eventually being together romantically with another at some point in your life, would it not be wise to keep your eyes open to all possibilities regardless of where you were at any given time?  You can label it "shopping" but is it not just a natural mate selection that we have inborn? 

It depends on circumstance.  Not everyone has the option to look at such possibility as freely as other.

All very good points and questions.  It has been the subjects of many discussions here too.  Fortunately, there are many interpreters/guides that have made themselves available.  On my first trip to Russia, I took a day to drag my interpreter (assigned to me by a marrage agency) on a sight seeing trip to your great city of Moscow.  Why would it be OK to you if I had met a lady in Moscow while sight seeing and not OK to meet the ladies at the agency?

Again there is no problem if you have made no such comments as stated by GQ.  Personally I would prefer to meet you in the street than on the internet as it will save you and I much time and writing if I do not like you for some reason.  

  You EXACTLY prove my point here Bored1.  It is very important for the man NOT to set the expectations of the woman too high prior to meeting the first time.  To do so, would be deceptive and not acceptable. 

That has been my point I have tried to make from GQ example throughout.  He asked me the question and I have replied to his question which was something about being surprised that mans who have professed love or made a particular RW feel she is his dream to also come with a hidden agenda of other womens.

It have simply responded to his question.  As you seem to answer his question the same as I then I do not see why you have cross examined me so.  

[Mars]

Mars, it sure looks like you resent a woman's preference to exclusivity. Some of them just won't
agree to standing in a chorus line. That's the way it is. It's not ridiculous nor unrealistic to them.

It is completely ridiculous and unrealistic!!!!!!

Exclusivity before a first meeting . . . even exclusivity after a first date . . .  both totally ridiculous ideas.

You ladies and brown nosing men; look at it like this.

The man, in many cases, will be making one trip during one year.  So he will be in a particular FSU town once during a given year.

So the woman says to him, I will only meet with you if you agree to meet no one else on this trip to my city.

Now, how would the women and brown nosing men respond if the man said:

OK, then lets both agree to this equally.  I will meet with you only, in your city, for this one year during which I will be in your city (albeit only a short time).  And you, in turn, must agree to meet with only me, in your city, during this entire year in which I will be in your city (albeit during only a short time).

So both parties must in effect agree to meet only each other in her particular city during that entire year, even if they only meet each other for 10 minutes.

If the man must give up all contacts with those of the opposite sex in that particular city for a year, then the woman should do it also.

Yes, of course, the women and brown nosing men find this idea ridiculous and unrealistic . . . just as their idea was likewise.