Accidental letter from agency with three letters from men and their responses

[Johnny2009]

And you, making negative character assumptions about a woman you don't know just because she's writing to guys in several different countries isn't "bold" I guess? Seriously, you come across as ignorant and racist - and don't try to pull that "I'm from the UK so know what I'm talking about" crap, please. FWIW Not everyone in the middle east or those that are Muslim treat women badly you know.

Since you wish to pass insults over to me, allow me to return the favour, personally I find your posts and opinions arrogant, while you criticise Dukemaxwell in another post, IMHO, you are just as bad, in fact worse, as for the second time today you have decided to put your opinion over with a swear word, VERY CLEVER BY THE WAY, please try not to get emotional on my account!! Thanks for your great assessment of me (not my post)!! I tend to agree with dukemaxwell's assessment of you! So instead of reducing myself to your level of insults, I will just say "thank you" for your kind words! As I have a real life, I will continue this pointless discussion after the weekend!

[I/O]

I will continue this pointless discussion after the weekend!

[valence]

Seriously, you come across as ignorant and racist - and don't try to pull that "I'm from the UK so know what I'm talking about" crap, please. FWIW Not everyone in the middle east or those that are Muslim treat women badly you know.

I'm a dual national US/UK; and from this perspective I can attest that his comments were neither ignorant nor racist.  If that's the way it came across to you then I suggest looking at the CONTEXT and then demonstrating some tolerance for alternative viewpoints.

Parliament has passed a lot of laws in the past 15 years to try to curb the abuse of Muslim women, we have a special police unit dedicated to forced marriages and honour killings, even last week there was yet another brutal honour killing in London.  For lots of reasons, the problems here seem to be more acute than they are stateside.  Of course it's wrong to make generalizations about the middle east, but on the other hand, it's shoved down our throats each and every day. 

[Ade]

I'm a dual national US/UK; and from this perspective I can attest that his comments were neither ignorant nor racist.  If that's the way it came across to you then I suggest looking at the CONTEXT and then demonstrating some tolerance for alternative viewpoints.

Parliament has passed a lot of laws in the past 15 years to try to curb the abuse of Muslim women, we have a special police unit dedicated to forced marriages and honour killings, even last week there was yet another brutal honour killing in London.  For lots of reasons, the problems here seem to be more acute than they are stateside.  Of course it's wrong to make generalizations about the middle east, but on the other hand, it's shoved down our throats each and every day. 

Yeah, I'm Welsh so no need to preach, I just happen to live in Norway. And yes, a lot of nasty stuff happens but please don't try to apologise for Johnny boys obvious negative stereotyping because I'm not buying it. And in addition, he slates a woman he knows nothing about just because she's looking in several countries for a partner then whines when he thinks he's being slated because "he knows nothing about him".

Racists and hypocrites are the worse kind of people.

[Ade]

Since you wish to pass insults over to me, allow me to return the favour, personally I find your posts and opinions arrogant, while you criticise Dukemaxwell in another post, IMHO, you are just as bad, in fact worse, as for the second time today you have decided to put your opinion over with a swear word, VERY CLEVER BY THE WAY, please try not to get emotional on my account!! Thanks for your great assessment of me (not my post)!! I tend to agree with dukemaxwell's assessment of you! So instead of reducing myself to your level of insults, I will just say "thank you" for your kind words! As I have a real life, I will continue this pointless discussion after the weekend!

The fact that you feel some sort of empathy towards that man (and I use that term loosely) tells me everything I need to know about you. FWIW, my assessment of you is derived from your posts. Go figure.

[Sculpto]

Johnny..

Based on what you wrote I formed an opinion of your orientation.  If I am wrong, I apologize, but, the words were yours and I stand by my opinion until or unless you give me a reason to change my opinion.

You remind me of a kind of bigot not common in the US anymore, but, that just 20 years ago was common.  This was a type of person who didn't know anyone from any other races, had never encountered anyone from other races, had never been to the home of or invited someone to their home.. yet, was full of opinions they believed as fact about the nature of those other races and cultures.  They had nothing but TV and mass media from which to base their opinions, yet, somehow they were experts on race and culture. 

People do not become non racist by simply adopting so called PC terminology.  It requires actually getting to know someone from a different culture and understanding their cultural nuances from their perspective.  Until you can say that you have done that, any sweeping commentary about any culture is, sorry to say it, a very dangerous type of ignorance and the foundation of racism.

I sincerely hope you find the ability to have a deeper experience in life than what your last few posts have shown.

[Johnny2009]

Seriously, i will spend the rest of the day in deep reflection about my views! Seriously, I'm serious I really will!!

And Fiction 2012, after reading some of your previous posts, your pursuits have been complete failures and judging by one of your most recent topics you have time to waste stringing along scammers! Short advice to you, since you have offered yours, give up your day job and stick to AW!

So please explain why your opinion should be of any relevance to me?? Why should it be important?

In answer to your last line Fiction, don't hope to much!

[Johnny2009]

I'm a dual national US/UK; and from this perspective I can attest that his comments were neither ignorant nor racist.  If that's the way it came across to you then I suggest looking at the CONTEXT and then demonstrating some tolerance for alternative viewpoints.

Parliament has passed a lot of laws in the past 15 years to try to curb the abuse of Muslim women, we have a special police unit dedicated to forced marriages and honour killings, even last week there was yet another brutal honour killing in London.  For lots of reasons, the problems here seem to be more acute than they are stateside.  Of course it's wrong to make generalizations about the middle east, but on the other hand, it's shoved down our throats each and every day. 

Hi

Not sure that "tolerance for alternative viewpoints" is possible here, you have to either agree with (so called) experts or you are wrong!

To back up your post I agree with everything you have said, and just wanted to add that Jordan has a large problem with honour killings and rules for women are based firmly in the "dark ages" or beyond! But hey, maybe it is us that are intolerant?

[Ade]

Hi

Not sure that "tolerance for alternative viewpoints" is possible here, you have to either agree with (so called) experts or you are wrong!

And you base this statement on what exactly? On the fact that several of us questioned your sweeping generalizations and negative stereotypes?

To back up your post I agree with everything you have said, and just wanted to add that Jordan has a large problem with honour killings and rules for women are based firmly in the "dark ages" or beyond! But hey, maybe it is us that are intolerant?

Yes, there are several countries that have problems with honour killings, we've even seen the problem imported to Scandinavia, however, you did not say that, what you said was this;

She is writing to one gentleman whose culture has zero respect for women!

It's patently obvious from your posts that you have tarred all people from Muslim countries with the same not so nice brush; you've also made it clear that you think women who consider a relationship with a person from a Muslim country will have a questionable character and low standards. Where is your "tolerance of alternative viewpoints", hm?

And FWIW, I am a great supporter of freedom of speech and alternative viewpoints but it should go without saying that that in itself does not give you the right spout off unchallenged.

[Johnny2009]

And you base this statement on what exactly? On the fact that several of us questioned your sweeping generalizations and negative stereotypes?

Yes, there are several countries that have problems with honour killings, we've even seen the problem imported to Scandinavia, however, you did not say that, what you said was this;

It's patently obvious from your posts that you have tarred all people from Muslim countries with the same not so nice brush; you've also made it clear that you think women who consider a relationship with a person from a Muslim country will have a questionable character and low standards. Where is your "tolerance of alternative viewpoints", hm?

And FWIW, I am a great supporter of freedom of speech and alternative viewpoints but it should go without saying that that in itself does not give you the right spout off unchallenged.

I do not have a vast problem with being challenged, I have my thoughts which were also mirrored by another poster! You have yours, which were also mirrored by a fellow poster, so no problems so far! However, choosing to call me ignorant/racist based on my comment, does cause me problems!

"And you base this statement on what exactly? On the fact that several of us questioned your sweeping generalizations and negative stereotypes" your several was in fact - 2. Hardly a majority.

[Ade]

"And you base this statement on what exactly? On the fact that several of us questioned your sweeping generalizations and negative stereotypes" your several was in fact - 2. Hardly a majority.

Besides me, there are 4 others in this thread that did not agree with you.

But whatever dude, you are welcome to your narrow mindedness and prejudices.

[Johnny2009]

Besides me, there are 4 others in this thread that did not agree with you.

But whatever dude, you are welcome to your narrow mindedness and prejudices.

Thank you for your gracious offer!

Debate closed until Fiction wakes up!

[Sculpto]

Thank you for your gracious offer!

Debate closed until Fiction wakes up!

No point in debating with you.  You made a heinous comment and continue to defend it, plus, resorting to personal insult to make your argument.  You are right, case closed.  You lose.

[Johnny2009]

No point in debating with you.  You made a heinous comment and continue to defend it, plus, resorting to personal insult to make your argument.  You are right, case closed.  You lose.

Fiction, being referred to as a bigot, strangely induces a reaction in people! In truth, not sure I wrote anything to you that cannot be backed-up with the evidence in your posts!

Heinous? Wow, you are a sensitive soul!

Anyway, if I lost, who won? Did you win?

Oh well, it matters not who won or lost, but how you played the game! How do you rate your performance after 3500 + posts?

[Admin]

Hi

Not sure that "tolerance for alternative viewpoints" is possible here, you have to either agree with (so called) experts or you are wrong!

To back up your post I agree with everything you have said, and just wanted to add that Jordan has a large problem with honour killings and rules for women are based firmly in the "dark ages" or beyond! But hey, maybe it is us that are intolerant?

Have you ever visited Jordan? Or gotten to know any of the residents, or former residents?

While I cannot lay claim to spending a great deal of time in Jordan, I can say unequivocally that the time spent in Jordan was THE best time I have spent anywhere on the planet. The Jordanian people were amazingly warm and generous. The visit to Petra stands out as THE most fascinating trip I have ever taken.

And BTW - this was entirely unexpected. I anticipated my trip to the Middle East to be filled with tension and edgy. I could not have been more wrong.

In crossing the West Bank from Jordan into Israel (Palestine), there was certainly some tension. However, on return in the bus passing through the security maze of the West Bank, my kids befriended some other children whose parents began speaking with us. Within minutes, they offered to drive us from the parking zone on the Jordanian side of the West Bank into Amman, and invited us to dinner at their home.

On the trip to Petra from Amman we traveled into the night, at one point stopped by a military checkpoint. I had one of my sons sitting on my lap in the passengers side of the front seat (no cheap comments about safety issues). With one armed soldier speaking to the driver who had gotten out of the car, there was another armed soldier on the elevated platform closely eyeing the car and its occupants. My son saw him and waved to him - which I quickly ended, not wanting to draw any unnecessary attention. I was unsuccessful. The soldier got up and walked down from the elevated platform over to my side of the car and motioned for me to open the car window - which I did. Fully expecting to get a blast of angry Arabic, I was shocked when he leaned in and gave my son a kiss on his forehead - along with a giant smile and kind and gentle Arabic (have no idea what he said).

I daresay that anyone who has spent time with an Arabic family would NOT claim they, as a group, have any special corner on the market of female abuse. Quite the opposite, in fact. The Arabic men I know - as a rule - are respectful and honor their relationships with their wives. While cultural differences exist, I have personally seen, on numerous occasions, the way in which Muslim men cherish their wives and daughters.

Having said that, there is a recent incident in Arizona where a Muslim man ran over and killed his beautiful 20 year old daughter because he was angry with her defiance of traditional values. There are clearly heinous incidents of rage and some of it is culturally borne - but IMO it is more individual than social.

FWIW

- Dan

[Sculpto]

She is writing to one gentleman whose culture has zero respect for women! Maybe he is different and the electronic translator he is using will explain all? Also he clearly has limited if any knowledge of English/Ukrainian/Russian and she the same limitations with English/Jordanian, what fun they will have!

Those are your words.  Words of a bigot.  Own your words kid.

[Johnny2009]

Have you ever visited Jordan? Or gotten to know any of the residents, or former residents?

While I cannot lay claim to spending a great deal of time in Jordan, I can say unequivocally that the time spent in Jordan was THE best time I have spent anywhere on the planet. The Jordanian people were amazingly warm and generous. The visit to Petra stands out as THE most fascinating trip I have ever taken.

And BTW - this was entirely unexpected. I anticipated my trip to the Middle East to be filled with tension and edgy. I could not have been more wrong.

In crossing the West Bank from Jordan into Israel (Palestine), there was certainly some tension. However, on return in the bus passing through the security maze of the West Bank, my kids befriended some other children whose parents began speaking with us. Within minutes, they offered to drive us from the parking zone on the Jordanian side of the West Bank into Amman, and invited us to dinner at their home.

On the trip to Petra from Amman we traveled into the night, at one point stopped by a military checkpoint. I had one of my sons sitting on my lap in the passengers side of the front seat (no cheap comments about safety issues). With one armed soldier speaking to the driver who had gotten out of the car, there was another armed soldier on the elevated platform closely eyeing the car and its occupants. My son saw him and waved to him - which I quickly ended, not wanting to draw any unnecessary attention. I was unsuccessful. The soldier got up and walked down from the elevated platform over to my side of the car and motioned for me to open the car window - which I did. Fully expecting to get a blast of angry Arabic, I was shocked when he leaned in and gave my son a kiss on his forehead - along with a giant smile and kind and gentle Arabic (have no idea what he said).

I daresay that anyone who has spent time with an Arabic family would NOT claim they, as a group, have any special corner on the market of female abuse. Quite the opposite, in fact. The Arabic men I know - as a rule - are respectful and honor their relationships with their wives. While cultural differences exist, I have personally seen, on numerous occasions, the way in which Muslim men cherish their wives and daughters.

Having said that, there is a recent incident in Arizona where a Muslim man ran over and killed his beautiful 20 year old daughter because he was angry with her defiance of traditional values. There are clearly heinous incidents of rage and some of it is culturally borne - but IMO it is more individual than social.

FWIW

- Dan

Dan, good post!

There are "fors" and "againsts" in every situation, I have just added my opinion, which I have not tried to "ram down anybodies throat" like a preacher! For my heinous crimes I have been labeled "ignorant", "racist" and best of all a "bigot"! I missed the point where I suggested that my word was gospel. I appreciate that if you make a comment you should be excepted to back-it-up! Hey, its a forum its standard practice!

I have never been to Jordan but have worked for some time with a Jordanian man who has been a family friend for many years, my experience therefore is limited, it is based upon reading and news reports! But does this mean my opinion is baseless?

This week I have been reduced to responding to name calling, IMHO not very cool! Time for a break!

This site is heavily populated by guys with very little to do other than to start and continue petty arguments, I am lucky as I am blessed with something else to do!

Time to look at the behavior of the "old" guys on this forum not just newbies like "Duke"!

[Ade]

Dan, good post!

There are "fors" and "againsts" in every situation, I have just added my opinion, which I have not tried to "ram down anybodies throat" like a preacher! For my heinous crimes I have been labeled "ignorant", "racist" and best of all a "bigot"! I missed the point where I suggested that my word was gospel. I appreciate that if you make a comment you should be excepted to back-it-up! Hey, its a forum its standard practice!

I have never been to Jordan but have worked for some time with a Jordanian man who has been a family friend for many years, my experience therefore is limited, it is based upon reading and news reports! But does this mean my opinion is baseless?

This week I have been reduced to responding to name calling, IMHO not very cool! Time for a break!

This site is heavily populated by guys with very little to do other than to start and continue petty arguments, I am lucky as I am blessed with something else to do!

Time to look at the behavior of the "old" guys on this forum not just newbies like "Duke"!

I think you misunderstand some things that are quite fundamental about discussion forums.

One thing is that when you make sweeping generalisations you will be challenged. If those generalisations are of a racist nature, you will be called a racist. If they are hypocritical, you will be called a hypocrite. I would do no less if we were face to face and have done so many times with people, even with people I work with.

It's ironic that you admit to being ignorant about a subject and yet complain that you were called ignorant when you spouted unfounded accusations at an entire culture. It would be like me saying that all Catholics a paedophiles because I've read lots of stories in the paper about paedophile priests. That would be as equally ridiculous and as insulting as your statements have been in this thread.

[Sculpto]

Johnny.. what bugs me is you made the comment.. had it called out by more than one person.. and instead of considering how offensive your comment is, have become defensive and attempted to make personal attacks.

If you had taken a different approach the whole tone would be different.  I am trying to help you expand your view of the world, as is SJ and Dan. 

Let me tell you something.. I am Jewish.. not a big supporter of Israel.. but not a big detractor either.  In San Francisco where I live the majority of little corner stores are owned by Palestinians.  I buy stuff in those stores, shake the hands of the owners, and create peace EVERY DAY.  It took a very serious form of self reflection to get over my biases and prejudice to discover that most Palestinians are NOT terrorists and most are in fact very nice people. 

So, I challenge you to consider your own perceptions, own your words, and grow.

[Gator]

This site is heavily populated by guys with very little to do other than to start and continue petty arguments, I am lucky as I am blessed with something else to do!

Does it not take two to have an argument, even a petty argument?  And did you not become embroiled in one?    

So it is not just "old" guys.

Nevertheless, Johnny, I agree that too frequently we argue about some irrelevant issues (at least not relevant to RW).  And to top it, we are guilty of periphrasis, everyone that is except BluesFairy.

[GQBlues]

demonstrating a high level of ignorance about other cultures.

LOL...strange thread.

FWIW, a Jordanian man isn't necessarily an Arab. An Arab doesn't automatically make his religion 'Islam', or make him a Muslim; as there are Christian Arabs or Arab Jews..

Anyone whose first language (thus extends upon cultural expression) is Arabic is an Arab.

[jj]

Well getting back to the OP's e-mail,  I think Boris is writing and he shows his favorite, as the guys from Spain and Greece only gets "best regards" and the guy from Jordan gets "kisses"

[SANDRO43]

Anyone whose first language (thus extends upon cultural expression) is Arabic is an Arab.

Therefore Egyptians are Arabs ?

[GQBlues]

Therefore Egyptians are Arabs ?

Sandro, loaded question - no?

Many Egyptians are identified by, or considered as, Arabs because their first language being Arabic. However many dispute this classification since it is believed that Arabs follow a genetic line descending from Shem/Semetic, thus by technicality, many Egyptians cannot be Arabs since many Egyptians already existed at the time of Ishmael.

Be that as it may, today, these diverse group of peoples of cultures, religion, geography, history, etc..are linked by the Arabic language. Politically-driven or otherwise, Egypt is one of over 20 countries grouped and known today as 'The Arab World'.

[SANDRO43]

Sandro, loaded question - no?

Goes to show how generalisations can be misleading . My friend Ali Fadel, a Muslim born in Alexandria and owner of a restaurant in my area, is offended if someone calls him an Arab.

Arab identity
In the modern era, defining who is an Arab is done on the grounds of one or more of the following three criteria:

Genealogical: someone who can trace his or her ancestry to the tribes of Arabia - the original inhabitants of the Arabian Peninsula - and the Syrian Desert. This definition was the definition used in medieval times, for example by Ibn Khaldun, but has decreased in importance as more people have come to identify as Arabs.

Linguistic: someone whose first language, and by extension cultural expression, is Arabic, including any of its varieties. This definition covers more than 300 million people. Certain groups that fulfill this criterion reject this definition on the basis of non-Arab ancestry, such an example may be seen in the way that Egyptians identify themselves.

Political: in the modern nationalist era, any person who is a citizen of a country where Arabic is either the national language or one of the official languages, and/or a citizen of a country which may simply be a member of the Arab League (thereby having Arabic as an official government language, even if not used by the majority of the population). This definition would cover over 300 million people. It may be the most contested definition, as it is the most simplistic one. It would exclude the entire Arab diaspora outside of the Arab world, but include not only people with Arab ancestry (Gulf Arabs and others, such as Bedouins, where they may exist) or who identify themselves as Arabs, but would also include Arabized groups who do not identify themselves as Arabs (including many Lebanese and many Egyptians, both Christians and Muslims) and even non-Arabized ethnic minorities who have remained non-Arabic-speaking (such as the Berbers in Morocco, Kurds in Iraq, or the Somali majority of Arab League member Somalia).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_people