Introduction

[Razbojnik]

Hello, all!

I just joined, and wanted to take a moment to introduce myself. My name's Dan, and I live near Cincinnati, Ohio, (actually, Florence, Kentucky.) I am a former Russian and Polish Linguist in the U.S. Air Force, and am interested in possibly meeting someone to chat with from Russia, or a Russian woman living here in the U.S.

I speak fairly decent Russian, passable Polish, and even a little German. I'm a Computer Guy/Business Analyst working for a multinational company, starting a new business for the company. I enjoy reading, writing, baseball, business, politics and just about everything else. I'm a fan of Yuri Shevchuk and DDT, as well as a lot of other Russian music (ranging from Virus to Blestyashchie to Slot to Pilot to Verka Serdyuchka to DiDyulYa, and of course, Vladimir Vysotski.)

I've visited Russia twice: Moscow for a far-too-short week, and Volgograd for a far-too-short three weeks. I would love to one day live and work in Russia - I don't care where!

Feel free to drop me a line!

[remiel6]

welcome to the forum. Browse around, ask questions if you have any. I think your knowledge of russian certainly helps in this endeavor. I know almost no russian as do a lot of the others here, so I think your knowledge of Russian will help you quite a bit. There are a couple people here I believe who have lived and worked in Russia/Ukraine. So perhaps they can offer some advice for you there. Either way, welcome. 

[Taz]

Welcome Razbojnik! Maybe a better name would have been Kentucky Dan. Somehow it seems to fit. You are Dan and live in Kentucky. It sounds better than Ohio Dan or Cincinnati Dan... 

Glad to see someone else here has an interest in Russian music. I DDT is pretty good. Mumi Troll has been recently touring in the US. I saw a few of their concerts not too long ago. Serduchka has some pretty funny parodies. Vysotski is worth listening too from time to time just like Pugachova. We should compare notes sometime about Russian music.

I probably have over 5,000 Russian songs at this point that I've collected over the years. I always bring back a huge stack of CDs every time I go over. There are some good Russian radio stations on the net as well. Sibir Radio is pretty good and broadcasts in a high bitrate.

[Dave13]

Welcome Razbojnik, Speaking Russian is a big plus, I know enough to ask directions and how to order food and the most important beer.  Been to Russia four times, favorite city is Saint Petersburg. Also served in the Air Force!

Dave

[RussianWind]

I am a former Russian and Polish Linguist in the U.S. Air Force,

What did you do? Was listening to secret telephone conversations?  :seething: This is what linguists normally do in Russian army 

[Vaughn]

A fellow DLI grad - welcome Raz!

 About 25 years passed since I chucked the headsets in West Berlin, so when I
decided to visit Russia my abilities were well-rusted. Yanked out the old books
(and bought a few new ones) and it made all the difference.

 Not having to limit yourself to English speaking ladies is a wonderful thing.

What did you do? Was listening to secret telephone conversations?

RussianWind, we spent most of our time scratching our heads asking "What Did He Say?" LOL !!!

[Razbojnik]

When I first visited Russia (Moscow), it was November, 2004. (Not exactly the height of tourist season.) But I met my fiancee there, so I had a VERY warm reception! 

Second time was in April, 2008, when I spent three glorious weeks in Volgograd. Definitely helps to be able to speak the language, and I just LOVE being "out n' about" and able to "govorit'" some with people I meet. I know I have an English accent, but still, people seem to like that. They just seem to like it when you can at least try to communicate. And I am definitely learning a lot from my wife-to-be. (Although I still try to express some concepts in terms of "military language," for "some strange reason.") 

For those of you who're contemplating going: GO! You'll be very glad you did!

[Razbojnik]

And for those who know a little Russian and can read it, something for you to enjoy that was sent to me a short time ago.

Enjoy!

(Remember: Razvedchiki - nashi. Shpiony - ikh.)

[Ludmila]

Hi,

 Razboinik, I have a question to you, please  :who, in your opinion, is American musical/singing equivalent of Vladimir Vysotsky, considering that the latter was adored, mainly, for his criticism of the communist regime ( coupled with his poetic talent). Thanks.

[Ludmila]

Hi,

 Razboinik, I have a question to you, please  :who, in your opinion, is American musical/singing equivalent of Vladimir Vysotsky, considering that the latter was adored, mainly, for his criticism of the communist regime ( coupled with his poetic talent). Thanks.

[Mir]

Razboinik, I have a question to you, please  :who, in your opinion, is American musical/singing equivalent of Vladimir Vysotsky, con

He is usally compared with Bob Dylan I think.

[Ludmila]

Thanks, Mir, i appreciate.

[Razbojnik]

Hello, Ludmila!

I think it's hard to say, because we don't really have "political" dissent against government via music as Vysotskij or Yuri Shevchuk. Most "dissent" was/is aimed at the so-called "establishment," which is to say, the "mainstream," which is to also say most things that form the core of our culture. In fact, most entertainers today tend to support government, not oppose it or ridicule it (even subtly.)

The theme of American rock and roll has been for a long time, "Sex, drugs and rock and roll." Like I said, it tends to glorify those things, and cares little for anything else, for the most part. American "Country" music tends to go in the other direction, sometimes, and tries to promote God, country, patriotism, etc. Again, it's tough to characterize, but in general, I think that's fair.

But if you're looking for a singer who is multi-talented, I might go with Jimmy Buffett, who writes some wonderful music, and is also an author, pilot, sailor, etc. I don't know if you've ever heard of him, but my two closest Russian friends are "Parrotheads," (fans of Jimmy Buffett.) His music usually tries to tell a story, usually with a Carribbean or country flair. Give him a listen, and you may just like it!  If so, you just might be the Third Russian Parrothead!

As for me, I really like the depth of Russian music. My absolute favorite song is "Pravda na Pravdu," by DDT. I can *ALMOST* sing along with the lyrics, and I just love it. It's tough to find an equivalent in American music. DDT in general is hard to categorize, and wonderfully so! You wouldn't find many American groups who could use violin and acoustic guitar and be so popular. You listen to lyrics like "Ehto Vse" or "Chernyj Pes Peterburg," and you get a LOT more "depth" to the music, which I really like. There's a "dimension" there that we just don't have, as preoccupied as we seem to be with "sex, drugs, and rock n' roll," or even the making of a dollar on the pop charts.

Just my two kopecks worth!

Dan sends...

[Ludmila]

Rasboinik,
thanks for the exhausting explanation.

Although I do like the early Grbenschekov, early Loza early " Mashina Vremeni"( looks like as they age, musicians tend to be less sincere), on the whole, I am not a fan of Russian rock ( if it may be called so, I really don't think it can). I like Russian literature and philosophy. As to Rock-- I like anglo- american rock, as well as French rock .......regrettably, so unpopular here in the States.

BTW, why do you think sex, drugs and rock and roll -- is the centerline of American rock music ?

Is the formation of rock and roll, in your opinon, the reaction formation so to speak,  the logical answer to the "overstretched" values system, rigorism, harshness predominating in UK of the period and contemporary conservative environment in US/UK?

[Razbojnik]

Hmmm. Not sure what "overstretched" means in your context. If "overstretched" means always fighting against the pressures of "hedonistic" society, that wants instant gratification, radical redistribution of wealth, an overthrow of "traditional" institutions (such as family, marriage, abstinence, etc.) - then yes, "rock and roll" is a reaction to those traditions, I think. As a whole, anyway.

I believe mankind has ALWAYS faced such pressures, since history began. People want "change," and because "change" is often simply rebellion against the "established" norms or morality, without a clearly defined definition of "good" or "bad," we get - often! - "change" that brings out the WORST in society, (or at least has that potential.)

In the 1960s, the phrase "sex, drugs and rock and roll" was coined, and as a slogan for youth, it sounds good on the surface. BUT, given a little experience in the real world, one's youthful longings should be tempered by reality at least somewhat. For example, when you're a teenager, unlimited sex might sound like a pretty good idea. But in society, we limit ourselves to avoid exactly the carnage that's being inflicted on our society today: Fatherless children, extramarital affairs, easy divorce, etc. In general, I believe, there needs to be self-discipline in society for it to survive. "Rock n' roll" does little to support that self-discipline, and in fact, probably pretty actively works to undermine it as much as possible.

To me, it's pretty interesting that mankind struggles with philosophical questions as much today as from Day One, and - believe it or not! - a lot of the same metaphysical questions and issues that have been in existence since Day One. Things like, "How do we treat our fellow man?" "What is good?" "How do we know for sure?" Rock n' roll does little to even make the average listener aware of these questions, let alone try to address them. For rock n' roll, in general, the theme is, "Who cares? As long as *I* feel good." It is a very shallow, hedonistic pursuit, at least here in the West.

Which is why I find a lot to admire in Russian "rock." Yes, it doesn't sound like Western rock, but there is a depth there that we Westerners rarely appreciate. To write a song like this:

И зло на заливном коне взмахнуло шашкою
Добро, оно всегда без кулаков, трясло культяшками
Пыталось жалость убедить, помочь опомниться
о быстрей и точней летела конница

And Evil on a pale horse flashes a sabre,
Good, who always, without a fist, begs with severed stumps,
Tried pity to persuade, to help to come to its senses,
About the swift and exact flew the cavalry.
--from DDT's "Pravda naPravdu"

(Absolutely imperfect translation is all mine - for which I apologize.  ) To invoke "Good" and "Evil," flashing sabres, and charging cavalry is absolutely unheard of in Western rock and roll. As I said, there is a depth there that is evident not only in the music, but in the audiences' appreciation of it, from what I've heard. American audiences, on the other hand, are hard pressed to remember what happened 15 minutes ago, let alone 100 years! There is a LOT in Russian contemporary music to admire, and because I see audience members singing along with, and being moved by, the lyrics, I try to understand what it is that's in there. I believe it's worth something.

Here in the West, we have lived with "freedom" for so long that we have come to believe it is "license" to do whatever one pleases, regardless of consequences. "Sex, drugs and rock n' roll" is a "rallying cry," of sorts, for that attitude. Now, I'm the first to admit that I enjoy a good listen to "Stairway to Heaven" by Led Zeppelin, but as a life's philosophy upon which to base my actions - not so much.

Yes, rock n' roll in general is a reaction to what many view as restrictive values and culture. However, as a conveyance of culture's worth, rock n' roll is pretty poor. It simply offers "another way" to approach living, which is, in itself, not very well defined, and therefore, in my opinion, fraught with danger. There is a reason 6,000 years of history have demonstrated that certain values are worth having, and others are worth rejecting, and rock n' roll's hammering insistence that "change" is desired, and its failure to define "change" as good or bad, is in my opinion telling.

Apologies for long-winded replies. But I love a good discussion!

[dogspot]

Razbojnik,

To suggest that all Western music is about sex, drugs and Rock n roll is ridiculous. To say that there is no depth in American and European music is ludicrous. The fact is, there is so much music here in North America, in Europe, in South America, that is not recognized by the general public. Take artists such as Broken Social Scene, Wilco and Andrew Bird for example; all American and Canadian artists. Is you read the lyrics from these artists you will find some of the greatest poetry, history and thought provoking themes in music today.

Look back a few years...check out bands like Rush, Genesis, and King Crimson...Are these bands writing music about sex and drugs? Is this music lacking depth?

Are you familiar with the British metal band from the 80s Iron Maiden? Have you noticed the themes in their songs are almost always historical or derived from works of literature?

I enjoy me some Russian music: DDT, Nautilus Pompilus, Mumiy Troll...but to say that Western Music lacks the depth of these artists is absurd.

By the way, welcome to RWD! 

[docetae]

I agree with previous poster... you have limited view and knowledge about western Rock..

Just to illustrate one from Iron Maiden:
"My son ask for thyself another
Kingdom, for that which I leave
is too small for thee"
(King Philip of Macedonia - 339 B.C.)

Near to the east
In a part of ancient Greece
In an ancient land called Macedonia
Was born a son
To Philip of Macedon
The legend his name was Alexander

At the age of nineteen
He became the Macedon King
And he swore to free all of Asia Minor
By the Aegean Sea
In 334 B.C.
He utterly beat the armies of Persia

Alexander the Great
His name struck fear into hearts of men
Alexander the Great
Became a legend 'mongst mortal men

King Darius the third
Defeated fled Persia
The Scythians fell by the river Jaxartes
Then Egypt fell to the Macedon King as well
And he founded the city called Alexandria

By the Tigris river
He met King Darius again
And crushed him again in the battle of Arbela
Entering Babylon
And Susa, treasures he found
Took Persepolis the capital of Persia

Alexander the Great
His name struck fear into hearts of men
Alexander the Great
Became a God amongst mortal men

A Phrygian King had bound a chariot yoke
And Alexander cut the Gordian knot
And legend said that who untied the knot
He would become the master of Asia

Hellenism he spread far and wide
The Macedonian learned mind
Their culture was a western way of life
He paved the way for Christianity

Marching on, marching on

The battle weary marching side by side
Alexander's army line by line
They wouldn't follow him to India
Tired of the combat, pain and the glory

Alexander the Great
His name struck fear into hearts of men
Alexander the Great
He died of fever in Babylon

[Ludmila]

Razboinik,

thanks for opining. By "overstretched" I meant overrestrictive mode of rearing stemming from the Victorian age.

 Although conservative/ traditional by nature and values, I am a bit more than surprised at the disbalance of the American conservative environment. The life is so coded ( like dress code, behavior code, speech code, gestures code, etc) that it is virtually impossible ( when , for instance, you are visiting people's homes)  to be dressed in something bright, let alone something with a "punch"-- -- without being spotted and labelled as an alien. These unwritten rules inevitably cause a wish to rebel and do just the opposite.

 Meanwhile, an activist at church ( in her husband chasing stage) dressed in a black transparent blouse is hurrying on the stage to recite her part from the Bible.( In Godless Russia even a prostitute would not dream of entering the church without a kerchief on her head ( the symbol of obeying to God....... and husband-- hehe!), let alone be dressed provocatively. Because she knows she is going to the church exclusively for saving her soul.

Here a minister, wearing a Gucci/ Rolex watch, his BMW waiting nearby, will be prophesying for hours to the numerous believers about morals, life in Heaven, auxiliary significance of  material values, and the parishioners will be receiving quarterly letters about the ever   diminishing level of donations. Is it surprising then that the youth is  far from being impressed (  for example,  catholic schools in US,  are  witnessing the greatest outflow ever).

 That's how rock and roll was born in UK, spreading worldwide-- as a protest against overrestrictive mode of rearing/ way of life  (stemming from the Victorian era),  and hypocrisy of the establishment.

 I fully agree that while the ideas of rock and roll were fresh, the mode of life propagated by its idols was and has been far from something to follow , let alone-- look up at.

I have seen a lot of very sincere, spiritual believers here in America, too.

[Shostakovich]

Ah Oui: rebellion and the unraveling of our traditional social norms.  A hot topic to be certain.  R&R was born from two things: reaction against the strictures of the 50s and let us not forget - prosperity.  But as we revel in the excitement of of social change I think the broader and more important question has been lost sight of.  When we all have the freedom to marry our dog to our cat and watch our nieghbor's sex lives on cable TV and perhaps to plug in here and poor in that to achieve any sensation we wish we will make an awful truth extremely plain, that the average person has only the most insipid happy-faced notions about what life is for and in a hedonistic mode, finds themselves in a far more dire prison than the one they thought they escaped from in releasing social strictures as they now must serve the masters who dole out their pleasures and will have their profit.

[Ludmila]

Yes, Shostakovich

Life is always full of adversities. Gray wolves out there ( wearing sheep skin) ready to profit by the people's readiness to show trust, sincerity, lack of experience....

Teachers of morals knee deep in sins.......


The answer is the Golden Mean. Seems to be so  easy, yet so hard to find ( a propos, a very, very Christian notion, rather the centerline of the Christian spiritual tradition).

[Shostakovich]

Hmmmn.  But the Golden Mean is only a method, a way of securing a certain valued condition, which, btw, is not unique to Christianity, though in saying so, I do not wish to impugn the Christian faith.  Freedom is not an end, it only has value when in service of some higher purpose.  The lack of a clear purpose is the bain of the present age.  Materialism and hedonism fill this vacuum - you see the results in the melting of the polar ice caps, the rising tide of credit card debt, international trash culture, and the porcine proportions of the American (and increasingly world) physique.

[remiel6]

How I missed the Rock music conversation is beyond me  . As for Grebenshikov. I certainly do not like all his music, but the one thing I will note is that because of the underground nature of early russian rock music, it evolves and develops differently than its american counterpart. American music is always in part driven by a need to sell enough records to justify doing another album. This market pressure means a lot of rock music that pushes the boundaries, certainly early Genesis comes to mind here, struggles to sell. There was an early album by Aquarium called Radio Africa, that the first time I heard it totally blew my mind, and keep in mind I don't speak russian so I still have no idea what he's saying, so I'm speaking only of the musical style itself. The diversity of styles from song to song I loved. I certainly might agree that it is not "pure" rock and roll in the likes of Elvis or something like that. But to call western rock as all about sex and drugs is a bit of a stretch to me. The Clash, U2, Springsteen, Mellencamp, Neil Young for older groups. For younger artists Wilco, Bright eyes, there are many many others. I think in the popmainstream you certainly find a lot of bubble gum stuff, but thats true anywhere. There is more to Rock music than Britney Spears. If you really want to blow your mind open there is always Frank Zappa.

[Gator]

A hot topic to be certain.  R&R was born from two things: reaction against the strictures of the 50s and let us not forget - prosperity. 

I disagree.  Not sure what it has to do with RW.

R&R was not born as much as progressed out of something that has been with us for a long time, Mississippi Delta blues and then R&B.   

There were other roots.  Some will say that country fiddle music had a small influence. However, Negro spirituals IMO was a larger influence.  Nevertheless, I say that compared to R&B these other roots were insignificant.

Once born R&R had a meteoric rise because it filled a need in the white community where before there was a void.  Somehow the swing beat of the 40s degraded to the Hit Parade and such songs as "How Much is That Doggy in the Window."  There was a void of dance music. 

One may wonder why did it take so long.  And that was because of segregation.  Bill Haley helped, yet the big break came with Elvis, who was more black than white in soul.

Reaction against structures?  A little bit at most.  The R&R lyrics were not reactionary, save Bob Dylan and the like, yet he added little to the birth of R&R.

Prosperity?  Not so much as technological innovation.  One word - Electric Guitar (actually two words).  Then add 45s to the equation and TV.

Together, all of these gave us R&R.  From someone who was there, a little young but still there.

So what were Russian people doing during this?  It would be interesting for a RW to tell us.  A clue - I recall my  trip in 1987 when a band was playing dance music at one of the few restaurants in Moscow.  The band played a variety of music, yet the crowd gave its loudest ovation upon hearing the opening lyrics  "One O'Clock, Two O'Clock, Three O'Clock Rock...."

[Ludmila]

Gator, thanks for your thoughts.

Did I understand you right,  you are asking what were Russian people  doing when rock music was being shaped and gaining popularity in US?

Well, as is known, Russia was in the stage of totalitarianism.  Russian people couldn't do much. Obviously, rock music was officially banned in Russia of those years.....

May be, you mean, why they didn't rebel? If you are hinting that Russia has still  a long way to go towards democracy-- I fully agree. May be, you meant something else. Please, elaborate.

 

  Considering all the peculiarities of its development in America, which you are talking about  ( I fully agree, I believe it is common knowledge ),rock is somewhat different in US.

And yes,  I do like Elvis ( unlike my superfan- of - rock--- American husband ).  :-)





I was talking about a different thing: what imbalance of social norm brings about/ leads to.