My trip to Ukraine - Part three

[Miss FSU]

The point of the story id that "he is not that much into you". If the woman was #1 in his list he wouldnt notice any gift demands. The fatal mistake of the woman(as a whore or pro-dater/pro-sleeper) was sleeping with the man before possesing the coat, so actually I suppose she was notheing of the sort, or some kind of beginner

[Boethius]

с поганой овцы хоть шерсти клок

[Miss FSU]

с поганой овцы хоть шерсти клок

ну Кстати применимо к ним обоим

[Misha]

I have pointed to the cultural aspects in general, but, like here, there are all sorts of people.  In my husband's immediate family, this would have been unusual.

Yes, precisely, there are all sorts of people, and some sorts are better to avoid. My wife did not ask for anything in the first months when were were dating and it is not something that I can see my friends and relatives in Russia doing either.

[greg2654]

Second, a lot of Ukrainians don't really have a concept of money in "our" terms.  To her, asking for something that is $700 (assuming that is true) could be like asking for something that for her is, say, 700 UAH - not a lot, in her estimate

Phooey !!
I have never in my life met a woman, from ANYWHERE, that did not fully understand the value of money. How many currency exchanges did they use or walk past? No, this woman was smarter than that.

[Boethius]

I lived in Ukraine, have a lot of Ukrainian relatives, and I can state, unequivocally, that this is often the case.  But I suspect you misunderstood.  It would be like asking Bill Gates to buy you a car.  Yes, it is a significant cost.  But the perception is to him, it is "nothing".

[KenC]

The point of the story id that "he is not that much into you". If the woman was #1 in his list he wouldnt notice any gift demands. The fatal mistake of the woman(as a whore or pro-dater/pro-sleeper) was sleeping with the man before possesing the coat, so actually I suppose she was notheing of the sort, or some kind of beginner

AHHH, now we are down to the root problem.  The woman in question was much more into NickB than he was of her.  NickB was ready to call it quits before he met the daughter, which in 20/20 hindsight would have been the correct time to do so IMO.  Even though it seems you ladies intend to allude that NickB took advantage (exploited) the woman for sex and companionship, I do not see it that way.  IIRC, they were intimate before that time and NickB was still going to break it off.  From what he wrote, he was giving the relationsip a second chance which I tend to believe.

I do however, disagree with the idea that a man would not notice a gift request from a woman he was more interested in.  It is all in the "asking" that would make it wrong in my book.  Come on now, you ladies can be much more tactful in hinting what would make you happy and not necessarily resort to just requesting that an expensive gift be purchased out right.  For your sake, Boethius, it would be wrong in any language too.  Which may brings us back to the inability to properly communicate.
KenC

Ladies, if you would like to correspond with each other in Russian, do it in a PM.  Posts should be in English or offer an interpretation.

[Miss FSU]

I dont know why you are so obsessed with this "asking for the gift" point. I think it's rather positive feature to be able to ask for something if doesn't go to any extremes. There are lots of topics on RW forum's when a woman wants to ask WM about something but doesn't know how to put it nicely. So basically many women WOULD ask but they dont know how or afraid to hear NO

[Ade]

Ladies, if you would like to correspond with each other in Russian, do it in a PM.  Posts should be in English or offer an interpretation.

Don't be such a stick in the arse Ken; it's no big deal if the Russian speakers make a comment or two in Russian now and then if they want. Learn to use Google translate or get yourself a woman that can translate for you.

[KenC]

Phooey !!
I have never in my life met a woman, from ANYWHERE, that did not fully understand the value of money. How many currency exchanges did they use or walk past? No, this woman was smarter than that.

greg,
I have to disagree with you here.  Look at it form this angle: The woman was exposed to the "good life." NickB rented a very good apartment, wined and dined her in restaurants beyond her financial reach, all painting the perception that NickB was rich.  I am not saying he necessarily flaunted his wealth, but just what may have been her perception.  How truly wealthy NickB is or is not, she truly did not know.  A $700 coat would not have made Ken1958 bat an eye for example.  (He showered his disinterested UW with many many expensive gifts FYI)  What I believe Boethius is saying is that there is no way this woman could understand NickB's ceiling.

The lesson to be learned here is that as much as it may hurt the ego of the man, he must paint an accurate picture of his financial standing in order for the foreign woman to clearly understand his financial limitations.
KenC

[Daveman]

If you  hadn't missed the point, you wouldn't have focussed on cost.

We are not talking about equals.  Or perhaps we have different views of what constitutes decent behaviour.

ETA - You're a moderator.  Hive off all these posts to a separate thread.

And I have the opposite position that the view expressed by your husband as well as yourself is obfuscating the real point with a disregard of basic dating and./or relationship protocol/etiquette/whatever.. that the COST of a gift IS the central point here and is directly proportional to the depth and growth of a relationship.  Teddy Bears and trinkets are signs of affection and considered appropriate early on.  Expensive gifts are demonstrative of deeper commitment or a desire for such commitment and the acceptance of such gifts are indicators that the feelings/desires are mutual (the FSU women I have dated have similar notions as well). Whether I, you, or anyone other than the OP defines a value of $700 as expensive is irrelevant.  Was she asking for a demonstration of commitment?  Perhaps. Perhaps she really wanted a "sign" and that is exactly how she perceives it. Who knows? Only her.

But at any rate, as Boaterguy mentions, we're not really talking about a gift here..

[KenC]

Don't be such a stick in the arse Ken; it's no big deal if the Russian speakers make a comment or two in Russian now and then if they want. Learn to use Google translate or get yourself a woman that can translate for you.

It is actually a rule here, dude.  Oh and thank you for your insightful addition to the topic at hand.
KenC

[KenC]

A question for the ladies participating in this discussion-
Is there ever any consideration given to the expense the man has already paid just to come visit?  At the low end, the (American) man has already shelled out $2,500 to $3,000 just to meet the woman face to face.  No matter what the income of the man is, that is a hell of a lot of money to shell out for a semi blind date.
KenC

[Ade]

It is actually a rule here, dude.  Oh and thank you for your insightful addition to the topic at hand.
KenC

I have no insight into this topic hence my silence on the subject. I can see that parties from both sides of the argument, from their perspectives at least, make very good points.

As for the Russian, rule or not, lighten up. I'm sure the spirit of that rule intended that entire threads should not be taken over by Russian. I don't see that happening, do you? 

[KenC]

SJ,
No, actually the rule was set in place to stop private cross talk within a thread.  Not everyone reads and understands Russian but they do English.  If my request comes off as rude in any way, I appologize to the ladies.
KenC

[Misha]

I lived in Ukraine, have a lot of Ukrainian relatives, and I can state, unequivocally, that this is often the case.  But I suspect you misunderstood.  It would be like asking Bill Gates to buy you a car.  Yes, it is a significant cost.  But the perception is to him, it is "nothing".

Yes, but most people have a sense of pride and won't ask Bill Gates to buy them a car or anything else even if it is "nothing" for him.

[KenC]

Yes, but most people have a sense of pride and won't ask Bill Gates to buy them a car or anything else even if it is "nothing" for him.

Misha,
I agree 100%.  I think it is a matter of character.  On my first trip to visit Lena I was leaving and had accumulated some stuff purchased for my flat.  I had also brought a new portable CD player that I had every intention of leaving with her along with some Cd's I had brought for our entertainment.  I had to convince her to take these items because she did not want to give the impression that she spent time with me for gifts.  She only agreed after I said I would leave them for the landlord if she did not take them.

Keep in mind that the girls at the agency office were constantly pumping Lena for information on what I bought for her while we were together.  She was called a fool for not returning from our trip to Moscow without even a new pair of boots.  So I suspect there is a range of acceptable behavior.
KenC

[Ade]

SJ,
No, actually the rule was set in place to stop private cross talk within a thread.  Not everyone reads and understands Russian but they do English. 

Well then, if so, it's a bloody good thing that all the rules, including this one, aren't rigidly enforced to the letter or the forum would become stuffy and restrictive.

[KenC]

Well then, if so, it's a bloody good thing that all the rules, including this one, aren't rigidly enforced to the letter or the forum would become stuffy and restrictive.

And yet another valuable contribution!
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the matter.
KenC

[greg2654]

What I believe Boethius is saying is that there is no way this woman could understand NickB's ceiling.

I understand your reasoning, but doesn't this prove that she was using Nick to get everything she could?

Another thing: How is this situation (woman asking for gifts) different from an AM taking a woman out for dinner and then asking for a b**w job?   She shouldn't be upset because he just didn't understand her ceiling.

This stuff cuts both ways.

[KenC]

I understand your reasoning, but doesn't this prove that she was using Nick to get everything she could?

Another thing: How is this situation (woman asking for gifts) different from an AM taking a woman out for dinner and then asking for a b**w job?   She shouldn't be upset because he just didn't understand her ceiling.

This stuff cuts both ways.

greg,
I totally agree.  However, it appears as though NickB had already recieved his "gift."  In so much as the woman showed up with her bags packed and ready to move in with him, it appears that her "gift" was offered and not requested by NickB.
KenC

[KenC]

I dont know why you are so obsessed with this "asking for the gift" point. I think it's rather positive feature to be able to ask for something if doesn't go to any extremes. There are lots of topics on RW forum's when a woman wants to ask WM about something but doesn't know how to put it nicely. So basically many women WOULD ask but they dont know how or afraid to hear NO

Miss FSU,
This may be a cultural difference. Flat out "asking" for a gift is very untasteful here.  Asking for a specific (exspensive) gift because she "lived" with him puts her actions into a very unpleasant catagory.  Did she sleep and cook for him because she sincerely was "in to him?" Or was it done for financial gain?  The "asking" part strongly suggests the latter.
KenC

[brave girl]

NickB was ready to call it quits before he met the daughter, which in 20/20 hindsight would have been the correct time to do so IMO.

But he did not stop, why?? 
It is known :evil: :evil:  brave girl

[brave girl]

The woman was exposed to the "good life." NickB rented a very good apartment, wined and dined her in restaurants beyond her financial reach, all painting the perception that NickB was rich.

Or maybe "painting the perception" of SERIOUS gentlemen??  brave girl

[Daveman]

Yes, but most people have a sense of pride and won't ask Bill Gates to buy them a car or anything else even if it is "nothing" for him.

Misha,
I agree 100%.  I think it is a matter of character. ...

Agreed as well... besides, this whole inequity/disparity topic as presented thus far seems, at least to me, to be an insult to the decent, intelligent FSU ladies and conversely and excuse for crap behavior and/or attitude of those with ulterior motives or at the very least, wanna ride the visit meal ticket a little..

To suggest, imply, state, assert, whatever, that a woman who asks for a $700 coat just "doesn't understand" something is rather incredulous. Perhaps it could be somewhat believable a decade ago, but now it just doesn't hold much water.  Perhaps they don't completely understand the western financial system, but they damn sure know the value of a buck and exactly what they are "asking" for.  Caveat emptor.