My trip to Ukraine - Part three

[NickB]

Yesterday we talked about meeting at the steak house after she got off work. I assumed that meant she wanted to eat there. I agreed and spent the day fasting in anticipation of a big juicy rib eye.
I met her outside and we hugged. I started to take her in but she refused. She said she wanted to go to the grocery and get the ingredients for Red Borscht. Ok but I'm ready for steak. My mouth is already watering! But we need to go shopping and eat borscht. Ok you're the boss. I buy one bottle of the Durbanville Hills Pinotage red wine at the steak house. We both liked it last time. We go thru the grocery gathering this and that and make our way to the flat. We get there and go thru the sack. She forgot to get oil and needs it for the meat. It's already 10:30pm so I say let's forget the borscht tonight. Then we have a discussion and I say that when she works all day that it would be more convenient of we ate in a restaurant. We can cook borscht tomorrow.
Then she says. "We're leaving at 8 or 9am to go to the bazaar", "You agree to purchase this dear coat for me?".
I say "It's a lot of money for a coat. It must be a special coat." and again I say "Let's go look at them to decide if they are worth this much money"

Now I'm not a rich man, and believe me.. working as a network admin is not a lucrative position, but I would spend $700 on her if things were right.
What is right? If I felt we were falling in love or even a chance of us falling in love but I wasn't feeling it.

Anyways.. after my last comment "Let's go look at them to decide if they are worth this much money" she get's real quiet and gives me the cold shoulder treatment. My mind is immediately made that she's going home tomorrow.(it's after 11pm by this time) Things go down hill. She won't even look at me. I decide to sleep on the couch.
The next morning she comes in "Good Morning" all bright and cheery like nothing has happened. I think to myself. "Do you act cheery and like nothing happened to try and patch things up or do you maintain the silence and work towards getting her out?". In my groggy, sleep deprived state I thought to go with the latter.
After getting up and making coffee I pull out the translator so we can communicate without sign language etc.. I type "we should take a rest from each other today". "do you want to stop all communications" she replies. Then I type "You revealed your cards and I don't like your hand, what's next? Mercedes? Mansion?".
She replied that things are different here, she really wants to look good and it's very important to her and she thought I wanted her to be happy. I reply that I want a relationship based on love and understanding, harmony and peace and that throwing a temper tantrum because I questioned her (didn't even say NO.. just questioned her) about buying a $700 coat was not the kind of behavior I like.
She types a lot of this and that but the decision was made. Time to call a taxi.

I see a comment suggesting that AM brag about the things they have and the money they make. As I said. I'm not rich, I don't own a lot of things, drive a plain jane pick up, live in a small house. Basically I live the simple life. The only way I can afford to come over here is that I have made some good decisions in the stock market. I have nothing to brag about, she asked about my house and I told her it's a little, plain house. Nothing special. She asked about my car. I told her it's a 2006 truck. Again, nothing special.
Anyway.. That chapter is finished.

Time to take a hot shower and regroup. 4 days left. Meet a few more? HECK YEAH!!!

[GQBlues]

She replied that things are different here, she really wants to look good and it's very important to her and she thought I wanted her to be happy. I reply that I want a relationship based on love and understanding, harmony and peace and that throwing a temper tantrum because I questioned her (didn't even say NO.. just questioned her) about buying a $700 coat was not the kind of behavior I like. She types a lot of this and that but the decision was made.

Attaboy! That's really getting down to the heart of the matter! The peanut gallery is darn proud of you.

Except I can't help but wonder with you boys. What if she gave you a little squeeze, a little love, and a lot of skin; would all of what you said above not only goes out the window but instead actually get you searching for a $1,000.00 matching leather pair of boots?

[Daveman]

BillyB...Ya know what! The jest of your post tells me you will have a tough time in the FSU. I have always been the type of person to give the benefit of the doubt. If I hadn't done that I would not be married to my wonderful wife of over 5 years! My wife probably threw up every Red Flag in the book to someone who's perpsective is like yours. Giving the benefit of the doubt doesn't mean you have to open your wallet!

Well, this may be true with the majority of FSU ladies (preferring no facial hair),  but I can only relate my experience.  I've had a beard when meeting each of the ladies I met. Kisses came without a problem.  I shaved it twice, and both times after a little bit of WOW reaction, both wanted me to grow it out again.  Now it could be that my naked face is so ugly I need a bag over my head, or hair on my face, but that's what happened.  It could also be that the kind of women who attract me are usually a bit different than the types of ladies to whom most other men are attracted.  I have no idea really.  I do know with absolute certainty that my having facial has not, as of yet, even remotely affected any form of intimacy with FSU women I have dated.

but of course, YMMV

[BillyB]

Meet a few more? HECK YEAH!!!

Just think if you had to buy each one of them a $700 coat to make them happy? A guy might have to date 20 women before finding one that's a good match for marriage.

Good job Nick. I'm having more faith in you. I thought she locked you down. Some men would get a few kisses from a woman, think it's true love and cancel their meeting with other ladies on a WMVM trip.

That woman never cared about you anyway as evident of her going cold on you and throwing a tantrum when she didn't get her way. Between a coat and Nick, she chooses the coat and Nick will choose another woman.

[Boethius]

I read this thread to my husband (a Ukrainian citizen).  He was silent and looked down for a moment.  Then he said "They are looking to buy a cheap cow.  It is extremely upsetting in a way.  They are going to purchase the cheapest product.  It has nothing to do with $700.  They don't even understand this.  For them, it's normal.  It is like going to a sale.

If someone had done the same to his daughter, or his sister, he'd be singing a different tune.  Did he care about her?  No, he came to buy meat, and when it's expensive, well, it's a bad sale."

(full quote, or rant, if you will).

[BillyB]

Tell your husband it's easy for him to say since it's not his money. Ask him how many $700 coats did he buy for his dates before meeting you? Using his logic that Nick is buying the cheapest product by not buying the coat and if he cared about her, he'd buy it, YOU, Boethius should get a nice Christmas present when you ask for a Rolls Royce. He will of course enjoy spending the best money for the finest meat simply because you asked foe a car and he cares about you.

[Misha]

Did he care about her?  No, he came to buy meat, and when it's expensive, well, it's a bad sale."

I take it you believe that the meat was for sale and that the quibble was over the price? Some women are not looking for men to date simply as a pretext to have a man to buy them coats and boots  

[Boethius]

He said for a human being in any country to be in this position is extremely humiliating, and normal people will not be caught in this position, and decent human beings would not be boasting about or sharing it.  When normal people go to poor countries, they are advised not to take advantage of these people, knowing they are vulnerable.  The situation described is abnormal and indecent.

On the rest of your questions, Billy, he said he couldn't give you an answer because he has never been, nor would have put himself, in this position.

Now I will add my comments.  Our relations are not, and never were, built on money or tit for tat.  

Some women are not looking for men to date simply as a pretext to have a man to buy them coats and boots  

That's not what it was about.  

His point was, normal people on both sides of the equation don't act this way.  But, as a man, and one with privilege, there is a greater responsibility on you.

[Misha]

His point was, normal people on both sides of the equation don't act this way.  But, as a man, and one with privilege, there is a greater responsibility on you.

Here we can agree. Both sides must act decently. However, why do you think that the man is the one with privilege? She can say no, she can simply chose not to date men that she does not respect. A woman can seek out men who will live up to certain standards as much as men can seek out women who will live up to theirs.

[Boethius]

Try to do the same thing with "high standards" in extremely wealthy European countries.  You can meet lots of decent women there, too.

That is the point.

[BillyB]

 When normal people go to poor countries, they are advised not to take advantage of these people, knowing they are vulnerable.  

Sometimes the natives aren't so innocent and vulnerable as you think. I've met people who want to take advantage of me and I've met some wonderful people in the FSU. I don't think Nick is going to the FSU to use the ladies for selfish reasons. I'm sure he's happy to take them out to nice dinners and entertainment with his own money knowing full well most his dates will never become his wife.

On the rest of your questions, Billy, he said he couldn't give you an answer because he has never been, nor would have put himself, in this position.

He does not know what he's capable of doing until he walks in different shoes. Some of my married friends thought I was first "crazy." After seeing some of the fine  ladies I've met, they've become envious. If they were ever single again, they would consider doing "crazy".

Boethius, ask your husband to be honest with himself and us here. If on the first few days of you two meeting, you ask for a $700 coat and because you consider yourself the "finest" woman, you ask for many other things that cost big money, how long will it be before he would go shop at a cheaper meat market? If he says he would buy you anything you asked for, then ask yourself how long you will date a man with no money to support a family?

[IAmZon]

This has been a good thread so far (beats the hell out of the FL vs FL STATE game) except for the fact that there is a RWD solder still out on the field with 4 days left.  This would make a great reality show, and I never watch reality shows.

The reason for my post is simply I understand Billy's comments 100% and I understand Both's husband's comments too.  There is a classic cultural divide here.  That is not so easy to understand.  If I may suggest, for a man to get an online relationship then fly to Ukraine just to date certainly makes a strong suggestion to the women that the man is VERY CAPABLE.

So, people are people.  Trying to wife hunt in days, hours, and minutes confines a guy to generalities, red flags, and hair triggers.

Happy hunting. 

I hope everyone gets what they deserve.

[Boethius]

Boethius, ask your husband to be honest with himself and us here. If on the first few days of you two meeting, you ask for a $700 coat and because you consider yourself the "finest" woman, you ask for many other things that cost big money, how long will it be before he would go shop at a cheaper meat market? If he says he would buy you anything you asked for, then ask yourself how long you will date a man with no money to support a family?

It is a moot question, as he is not the type of person who would have ever put himself in that position.  He said he would have never done this, he'd never go to the flea market to take advantage of poor people.  It is, he says, indecent.

My husband was Soviet.  He had no money when I married him.  Money and earning power were never in my consideration in marriage.  I have an excellent education and don't need a man to support me economically.  In my view, that isn't what marriage is about.

I'll refrain from commenting further, as I don't mean this as a criticism of Nick, and don't want to hijack his thread.  Just putting out a different perspective.

[BillyB]

It is a moot question, as he is not the type of person who would have ever put himself in that position.  He said he would have never done this, he'd never go to the flea market to take advantage of poor people.  It is, he says, indecent.

I don't think Nick wanted to put himself in a position of dating women who ask for $700 coats before a relationship is established either. Maybe yourr husband was lucky in that respect by not running into those kind of women.

As far as the issue of taking advantage of poor people if a guy searches for love in another country, I guess your husband looks down at all the guys in this forum if he sees it that way. He should do some reading here to better understand the men posting.

[NickB]

On a wild hair I SMS "Meet me at the steak house at 1800" to Katya and seconds later I get "OK" back. Remember Katya was the first woman I met in Ukraine, the one I spent my first week with.
She shows up in a skin tight black dress, knee high black pointy toe boots (my distaste for those has turned 180 and is almost a fetish now!), cleavage down to there and looking very good. I hug her and I can feel the sincerity behind her hug. "I missed you" she whispers.
We set and order our meals and I look into her eyes and realize I've missed her too. I really have. What a contrast to Helen. Talkative, funny and speaks english! We waste no time getting reacquainted and soon we're laughing and flirting just as if it was yesterday. What a breath of fresh air she is.
After diner we walk the streets talking and holding hands. It was wonderful. I did not want it to stop. She said she would take a taxi home but I could tell by her voice that she wanted to come back to my apartment so I steered her that way. We stopped at LeMon and had dessert and coffee. We talked and laughed and flirted. After dessert we walk a little and I guide her gently toward the flat. She goes without protest and up the stairs we go. I take her coat inside and give her a tour of the flat. I had turned the heater up high and it was very warm inside so she suggested we open the balcony door. She went to open it and stepped back. I caught her around the waist with my arm and we locked eyes then shortly after locked lips. She wrapped her arms around me and her fingers in my hair. Uh oh...

Now this whole evening I've been sizing her up in my mind. "What kind of wife would she make?" and frankly I could see myself with her. Not only because she's an attractive, sexy woman but because we hit it off so well. It's so easy to be with her and we have always had fun together even if it's just walking the streets of Odessa at 22.00
We're meeting again tomorrow to spend the day together. I bet you thought we did the wild thing after the kissing.. didn't you??? Wrong! I called a taxi and we kissed a little more then she went home.
I'm still smiling from our visit.

[brave girl]

Now this whole evening I've been sizing her up in my mind. "What kind of wife would she make?" and frankly I could see myself with her.

Until request for nice boots?? 

Silly man with shallow pockets you fail "test" from nice Russian girl!!    brave girl

[Mars]

I read this thread to my husband (a Ukrainian citizen).  He was silent and looked down for a moment.  Then he said "They are looking to buy a cheap cow.  It is extremely upsetting in a way.  They are going to purchase the cheapest product.  It has nothing to do with $700.  They don't even understand this.  For them, it's normal.  It is like going to a sale.

If someone had done the same to his daughter, or his sister, he'd be singing a different tune.  Did he care about her?  No, he came to buy meat, and when it's expensive, well, it's a bad sale."

(full quote, or rant, if you will).

I think the comments of this FSU man suggest that the entitlement attitude extends to the men as well . . . when the giver is a person from the west.

There seems to just be a strong mentality among FSU people that people from the west should do something for FSU people.  Even when this something is something that the western people would not do for someone from their own country.

i.e.  The western man would never be expected to buy a $700 gift for a casual GF. 
But in the FSU mindset; the western  man should do it if it is for a FSU person.

I think this same attitude goes hand in hand with the refusal of FSU men and women to say 'thank you' to western people  who do something  for them. 
No thank you is necessary because the western people 'owe us something.'

Seems to not change even when the FSU person immigrates to the west.
He/she still thinks along the lines of a FSU person.

[Mars]

Silly man with shallow pockets you fail "test" from nice Russian girl!!    brave girl

Again, the entitlement attitude in full bloom.

[brave girl]

I am somewhat appalled at the correlation between this woman and a whore. 

Imagine!!! man sleeps in bed with woman and is unable to purchase coat?? 
only small greedy man behaves and speaks in such a manner about nice Russian girl!!
please you men speak of casual relationship when man is with woman in such a way!! 
UNBELIEVABLE!! brave girl

[Boethius]

I think the comments of this FSU man suggest that the entitlement attitude extends to the men as well . . . when the giver is a person from the west.

There seems to just be a strong mentality among FSU people that people from the west should do something for FSU people.  Even when this something is something that the western people would not do for someone from their own country.

i.e.  The western man would never be expected to buy a $700 gift for a casual GF.  
But in the FSU mindset; the western  man should do it if it is for a FSU person.

I think this same attitude goes hand in hand with the refusal of FSU men and women to say 'thank you' to western people  who do something  for them.  
No thank you is necessary because the western people 'owe us something.'

Seems to not change even when the FSU person immigrates to the west.
He/she still thinks along the lines of a FSU person.

You missed the point completely.  It had nothing to do with the coat.

And, FTR, my husband has never asked anyone for anything, materially.  Every ruble he earned was given to his mother, who needed that cash to feed herself, his sister,  his nephew, him, and me, when I lived there.

He has always relied on himself.  He says that is what a man does.

PS - My husband always thanked his grandmothers and his mother when they prepared a meal for him.  To this day, he kisses my hand and thanks me when I cook dinner.

[brave girl]

He has always relied on himself.  He says that is what a man does.
PS - My husband always thanked his grandmothers and his mother when they prepared a meal for him.  To this day, he kisses my hand and thanks me when I cook dinner.

A REAL man  not foreign SEX MANIAC!! brave girl

[BillyB]

 Every ruble he earned was given to his mother, who needed that cash to feed herself, his sister,  his nephew, him, and me, when I lived there.

There is a HUGE difference between a man who gives big money to his family to support them and a man who gives big money to a woman he's known a couple of days. You can call one guy a MAN and the other guy STUPID. Again Boethius, ask your husband how many women he spent $700+ on in a matter of days? My guess is none because he has brains. Although Brave Girl calls your husband a MAN, I doubt he could afford her.

[Daveman]

Imagine!!! man sleeps in bed with woman and is unable to purchase coat?? 

That depends entirely on the magnitude of... well... she may only rate the boots! 

[Boethius]

There is a HUGE difference between a man who gives big money to his family to support them and a man who gives big money to a woman he's known a couple of days. You can call one guy a MAN and the other guy STUPID. Again Boethius, ask your husband how many women he spent $700+ on in a matter of days? My guess is none because he has brains. Although Brave Girl calls your husband a MAN, I doubt he could afford her.

The point is, he'd never put himself in that position.  He views the whole endeavour "distasteful" because of the economic disparities.  And, he won't participate here.  He has no interest.  He only indulges me when he answers questions.

As for brave girl, she is far too young for him. 

[BillyB]

The point is, he'd never put himself in that position.

Are you trying to say he never dated an FSU woman in the FSU???? I'm sure he has and has any of those women asked him for a high dollar item on the first few dates? If so did he refuse or buy her what she wanted? Is he more like the meat shoppers(his words) who don't buy $700 coats or will he buy everything his date asked of him?