My trip to Ukraine - Part three

[Boethius]

He never, never, was asked by a woman to buy him anything.  He married me in his twenties, and didn't date thereafter, although he was hit on all the time.

[GQBlues]

I often wondered what WM will actually BUY RWs if they pet their little lonesome fur ball a bit on the first day.

NickB had an opportunity to bail on this woman day 1. Why he kept her around for a few days is beyond me. For now I'll reserved NickB the benefit of doubt that he wasn't baiting this woman to see how much she really wants that silly coat. But I can definitely see Boethius' husband's point on this matter FWIW.

[Doll]

I read this thread to my husband (a Ukrainian citizen).  He was silent and looked down for a moment.  Then he said "They are looking to buy a cheap cow.  It is extremely upsetting in a way.  They are going to purchase the cheapest product.  It has nothing to do with $700.  They don't even understand this.  For them, it's normal.  It is like going to a sale.

If someone had done the same to his daughter, or his sister, he'd be singing a different tune.  Did he care about her?  No, he came to buy meat, and when it's expensive, well, it's a bad sale."

 

Agree 100%. Well said!

[Doll]

Tell your husband it's easy for him to say since it's not his money. Ask him how many $700 coats did he buy for his dates before meeting you? Using his logic that Nick is buying the cheapest product by not buying the coat and if he cared about her, he'd buy it, YOU, Boethius should get a nice Christmas present when you ask for a Rolls Royce. He will of course enjoy spending the best money for the finest meat simply because you asked foe a car and he cares about you.

Again- this guy knows what he is talking about. I totally agree.
Your post, Billy, only proves he is right about AM going shopping for the cheapest stuff.
It is NOT about $700.00! What don't you understand!

[BillyB]

He never, never, was asked by a woman to buy him anything. 

Now we are getting somewhere. He's a Ukrainian man so he's got experience with FSU women. All but one FSU women I went out with didn't ask me for a gift in the first few days of dating and the one that did ask didn't ask for much. It's good to know that it is not standard procedure for FSU women to ask for gifts in the early dating phase. They should be happy with the gifts you brought them when you first meet anyway.

Now a final question for your husband. IF he wasn't married to you and dated a woman in present times in the FSU OR America and she asked for a $700 coat within the first few days of meeting, would he buy it or deny her the coat?

If he doesn't answer this question, I'll understand because if he answers "no", he will have done the same thing as the man(NickB) he criticized for going shopping at a cheaper meat market for a woman instead of buying the finest woman defined as "a woman who want expensive toys and lavish lifestyle". Also Brave girl will be disappointed if he answers "no" after she gave her approval of him. If he answers "yes", the very people who he looks down upon at this forum will label him a fool and trying to buy a woman's love with his wallet. Also a "yes" answer will make Brave girl happy!

[NickB]

Removed..

[Jumper]

i do see both sides of this, and have lived it.

In fact i did buy my (now ex) wife a nice coat early on in our relationship , because i noticed she needed one,
 and offered to buy her one.(and yes she made sure first ,that it wasnt going to be even  a mild financial strain,
 and did indeed shop for a couple of weeks to get the very best price, in the cost range she felt was proper,as she would do with her own money. get the drift? she was already considering it our money, being normal with it,,and while
certainly needing a new coat, picking one within the perceived family budget and looking for a good deal within that framework)




It's odd that a *coat* has polarized  the various viewpoints regarding economic disparity

and now i plan to play devil advocate.

(but this maybe should hacve its own thread? (sorry nick B)

I do not feel western men are "saving" anyone from a bad life in the FSU..

but the economic disparity,, is brought up in this thread to "condemn " the western man from not acting exactly like that !
what irony?  the gest is:
please men don't feel like you're SAVING her, ,its in poor taste,
but if you don't, then you're a greedy jerk as well..
and also if you can't save her "in grande style" don't bother LOL


The white knight dint *save* the damsel from a winter with her same coat ,
or one she would normally afford on her income..
 so he must be greedy!
(which might be true IF he was planing to marry her ,that's a huge IF )  


sorry cant have it both ways..
how many *deep pockets* is this woman been dating in ukraine?
 my guess is not many or she wouldn't be single right?
 
lets cut to the real chase here.
everyone often  tip toes around this particular subject, not wanting to appear "the bad guy ,or with "saviour mentality:" that many guys do wrongly have .. if they even bring the ecomonic disparity up

but it exists, it is a  reality , and a key driving force in the whole situation?
It can be pointed out, without the man having some "i saved her" attitude or mentality.
I never had this savioiour attitude,in any way! she has a decent life, but one without a husband in it...
 like any family man, ive alwatys done everything i could for my immediate and extended family.
 nationality or economic background has nothing to do with it ultimately?

 but the continued disdain and looking down from some ivory FSU tower ,
at any man, be he western or russian,
with a regular western salary , is distateful ,
considering that any man like this,
 is certainly a decent provider for an average family,
and yes if a man of good character WORTHY  of love from a RW that comes from a similar background.(MOST do)

 The truth is she would likely not be dating  RM who had any deeper pockets or ability to care for her or her family better,
and would likely not ask any of them for a coat in just 12 days of dating.

Why has noone noticed that the point is she did not ask if he could afford it at this moment??
wouldn't that be common courtesy?

but no? it's simply assumed that he can, and that he isn't a *real man * if he doesn't step up to the plate.

but a average local RM ,with no salary to buy such, after spending 5K the same month,.  retains real man status yes?
( i agree that he is,,but some posters are  contradict themselves by implying economic disparety..
as the sole measure of the men in either country,as either both can or cannot, provide for a family )


NickB ,is likely in a position to do so easily.
as must men that travel there are.

but what "if " he isnt?
he likely just spent 4 or 5 thousand on a trip to see her. so maybe this month things might not be the best to spend another $700 at that moment.

Of COURSE ,now we wil hear the crying! that he shouldn't bother with this venture at all you will say.
ok, that's fair enough..

but noone looks into  the fact that without just spending 5 K,
he could easily (if she was with him already in the US)
 be able to buy many nice coats fo rher and any children. on his salary
and yes ,no offense intended..
but he can ,and would , be  a better family provider than most men she would meet at home in the FSU
(yes simply by economic disparity )
but somehow this isn't good enough right..??
thats the UNBELEIVABLE.   as BOTH are real men.


isn't that what she should be looking for?  regardless of  country?

a good man, with the means to provide for a family, that she CAN'T, or HASN'T, found yet?
(or else she would be married to a local man,, right?

if this would be a stretch for him this month, after his recent expendenture,
 maybe he should be given the same courtesy as any average salaried  local RM?
 tell me why this isn't the case?


quite entertaining and interesting.

[Nat]

Deleted
Ok, I wanted to write something, but then read it again and decided not to do it, sorry.

[boaterguy]

NickB, Glad you got things sorted with Helen. She definitely showed her true colors. I was hoping she was just naive.

There must be a huge market for 2nd hand coats in Ukraine. I suppose from what I read it is one of the most common,costly gifts these ladies ask for. I figure these coats are almost as good as cash to the wrong type of women.

[Mars]

You missed the point completely.  It had nothing to do with the coat.

And, FTR, my husband has never asked anyone for anything, materially.  Every ruble he earned was given to his mother, who needed that cash to feed herself, his sister,  his nephew, him, and me, when I lived there.

He has always relied on himself.  He says that is what a man does.

PS - My husband always thanked his grandmothers and his mother when they prepared a meal for him.  To this day, he kisses my hand and thanks me when I cook dinner.

No, it is you who have missed the point completely.

It is only when a Western man is involved that the FSU person has the entitlement attitude.  And your husband displays this attitude, not in his actions, but in what he expects from Western men when they deal with FSU persons.

[Mars]

There is some good meat in AJs last post.

Simply put, the FSU people want it both ways.
The WM will be condemmed if he does; and condemmed if he doesn't.

I think this is probably a manifestion of what is going on around the world right now re the hatred toward Americans in general.

And Billy makes a good post also where he backs the detractors into a corner.  But, since they rarely make logical arguments, I'm sure the ladies can talk right past his logic.

[Jumper]

to be clear,

i was playing devils advocate.

It doesn't mean that i completely agree with the scenario i posted, it was just to illustrate a point.

sorry for the    

but what you might find interesting, is my ex-wife would post similarly.
initially she would not have,but over the years her family has treated her poorly over the matter of what gifts she
brings on returns visits, or how much money we  sent each month to support them, or how much she sent for christmas/birthday - gifts to adult sisters,, half sisters, brother extended family /friends etc.
in truth i feel sorry for her in this ,her family and friends , since she lives in the west, has as an expectation and perception that if she can afford to come see them, or have nice things herself in the USA, then the  gifts she brings should be equally lavish.and it has distanced their relationship.
( this should not be used to generalize all FSU people,my ex always thanked me for everything and sincerekly appreciated everything, her family however ,despite supporting them the last 6 years, has said thank you a coupl etimes at most to me or her, and mostly grumbling that whats sent is not enough,it should be noted we are their sole support,
and i for one would like to know how *putting myself* in that position by marrying the daughter, was bad in anyway as boithies husband seems to suggest ? I knew going in that she was their financial support ,and planned to contijue suporting them which we have done.and yes they certainly have a much better life than they had, it simply isnt as good as they perceived it might be? i'm not a *real man* by BG or boeuthies husbands thoughts,but have completely supported two families. sorry, i just  don't get it.)
 

All that said:

I do completely understand how the perception happens,
and can understand the lady asking for a coat,and she was headed ti the bazaare not the downtown fashion store?
She may well believe they have a solid relationsgip,, and that a decent coat is well within his budget.
He was eating at high end resturaunts,she was the one insisting to grocery shop and make borcht at the flat..
i think some of you guys are jumping into a total judgement that isnt fair to her , she was not throwing up every red flag as you say. and yes with the economic disparity, miss perceptions happen, and anyone in this pursuit needs to expect them.

 NIckB seemed to recognize this , and was willing to discuss it with her,, and did not refuse a coat.
The fact they couldn't sit down and work thru this matter as adults, is what is real important.

The inability as a couple in  problem solving and communication together ,over a cultural divide and perception,
 was the real breakdown?
not the coat (or money value of it) that everyone seems concentrated on ??

[Boethius]

Now we are getting somewhere. He's a Ukrainian man so he's got experience with FSU women. All but one FSU women I went out with didn't ask me for a gift in the first few days of dating and the one that did ask didn't ask for much. It's good to know that it is not standard procedure for FSU women to ask for gifts in the early dating phase. They should be happy with the gifts you brought them when you first meet anyway.

Now a final question for your husband. IF he wasn't married to you and dated a woman in present times in the FSU OR America and she asked for a $700 coat within the first few days of meeting, would he buy it or deny her the coat?

If he doesn't answer this question, I'll understand because if he answers "no", he will have done the same thing as the man(NickB) he criticized for going shopping at a cheaper meat market for a woman instead of buying the finest woman defined as "a woman who want expensive toys and lavish lifestyle". Also Brave girl will be disappointed if he answers "no" after she gave her approval of him. If he answers "yes", the very people who he looks down upon at this forum will label him a fool and trying to buy a woman's love with his wallet. Also a "yes" answer will make Brave girl happy!

He would never be in this position.  

The other posts, like yours, also missed the point completely, which only Doll understood.  This has nothing to do with "providing" for a person.  It has nothing to do with "helping" a woman or "saving" her.  It has nothing to do with buying anything for anyone.  It is about recognizing the exploitation that is inherent in the situations.  It is about the men's reactions, which not only are way out of proportion to the "crime", but are also quite telling about the attitudes you have to these people, attitudes not dissimilar to those condemned by Tolstoy in many of his works.

ETA - AJ, my husband's point was not about supporting two families.  It was about pursuing women who are desperate because of the economic situation in their countries, and the attitudes that entails.  Doll understood this not because she is a FSUW with an entitlement attitude, but because she has been in this position.  

I lived in Ukraine for a not insignificant amount of time.  I am ethnically Ukrainian, speak Ukrainian fluently, learned Russian (because Ukrainian wasn't spoken in Kyiv at all at that time and my MIL is Russian).  I lived in a FSU household. I've been married to Kyiyanin for over 25 years.  Yet sometimes, when we discuss an issue, or why things are unfolding a certain way, my husband will say "You think like a Westerner".  That is what I see here.  None of you guys get it, a few of of the posters are downright hostile, and I think most of you won't get it.  Perhaps it is the delivery, but I don't think it can be made clearer.


As an aside, I hope things worked out for you Nick.

[Jumper]

Boethius,
i can see the explotation connotation in the dating phase, i really do.

but for the life of me, i don't see it once couples are married.They met and chose a life partner?
no one forced either of them.They both made the decision based likely on many factors.
 i certainly did not exploit my ex.You are welcome to speak with her about it..
she would certainly say i spoiled her ,and was beyond generous.
Of course i wouldn't have much *reaction* if she asked for a coat or boots either when dating..
but i would discuss with her if it was something really needed ,  and why financially it was a good or bad idea at the very moment.Key is we would discuss it together.

 I apologize, I am overly sensitive to the subject now,
as my ex went thru variuos times of appreciating everything we had,(vast majority of the time)
 to other times  going thru periods of thinking  we were quite *poor* and how could we live?
This all while living in a new home, driving her lexus,in fur coats,designer sunglasses ,purses,  boots..
Then wondering why her family  treated her unappreciatively at the monthly stipend we sent.or gifts that were not thought to be big enough.
when she visits now ,,is she somehow exploiting them , because now that she lives in the west the gifts,and monthly money sent,  have to match their expectation and perception?
it's a complex issue...?
afterall she could sell the lexus, buy a 4 year old camry, and send them much more? right?
and yes she feels guilty at times over it.
For what its worth, dismissive is far more their attitude towards her in this matter.

i certainly know many FSU people who do not act like this to their family living abroad.
so again i want to say this should not be used as a generalization.
 


i also understand the attiude you refer to,
but not every man that meets a russian or ukrianian woman, has any attitude at all about it?

it can be as simple as ,,
there are countries with economic disparity.There always will be.
Sure it can be used to  prey on others " situation" and using it specifically to gain advantage?

or it can just be a natural advantage that exists.
 with neither side having any  dreadful intent?

do any of the women married to WM here, feel they were exploited?
it's possible but  i doubt it?
because they married good men afterall right??
 
If i meet and marry an american woman of much lower income, in a lower income area..
it wouldn't be assumed i was expoilting the economics of the situation.
(actually most would question wether she was  )
but it is assumed in the western man that goes to the FSU is.
and its almost equally assumed the FSU woman is even interested in relocating,, for the fact of the economies.

i agree with your husband that is sad.
because truly , it can be as simple as two people who meet,.
nationalities and ecomomic backgrounds can play much less roles than is stressed here.

[Boethius]

Men are actively seeking out women in a disadvantaged country.  That is my husband's point.  They are not pursuing women in Sweden, or Denmark, or France, or even Hungary, the Czech Republic, or Poland.  For this reason, it is markedly different, even from meeting someone in your own country.

If the woman had said "Darling, there is a winter coat I'd like at the bazaar.  It is $5.  Will you buy it for me?", I doubt very strongly the negative reaction would have arisen.  That is what my husband was talking about.

[Jumper]

Men are actively seeking out women in a disadvantaged country.  That is my husband's point.  They are not pursuing women in Sweden, or Denmark, or France, or even Hungary, the Czech Republic, or Poland.  For this reason, it is markedly different, even from meeting someone in your own country.

If the woman had said "Darling, there is a winter coat I'd like at the bazaar.  It is $5.  Will you buy it for me?", I doubt very strongly the negative reaction would have arisen.  That is what my husband was talking about.

I understand, and pointed out i see both sides? i have lived it afterall as well?

and oddly enough since you mentioned other countries like czech rep.,
at the time i met my wife  i was working in prague, and yes dated there as well, and certainly did in Poland, greece or portugal too..
(as i lived there or would travel there?) my search was not  confined  in anyway to FSU...i wasn't venturing into ukraine because it  was at some disadvantage.. certainly if Tanechka had been an English woman, and the same three our flight at the time ,living in london with a good salary , i would have met her there was well.

To this day if some woman from sweden , or czech, or canada, or..germany emailed me and we really hit it off on phone as well,
it would be no different.
This assumption,of shopping in a low market,  questions a mans integrity, without knowing anything about his character , or his pursuit.

would you do the same to the RW who is putting herself on the shelf at this " low market"?
no.it isnt fair to do so.
because she most likely is simply looking for a good man with means to raise a family, wether he is from in her own country or abroad.

i do see your husbands point,
i feel  there are other factors as well?

if nick was dating in the west
(which who is to say he isnt dating both places?)
and dating a western women of significantly less income,
she may also be strained to buy a $700  coat without budgeting for it,
yet this western woman, would never think to ask a guy she dated one month , or two weeks ,to buy it for example.
nor would she feel "hurt" if he dint.
why? because exactly it is not  $5.00, it may not be a lot to some, but its enough to discuss and not "expect"?


but my point also isnt the coat or its actual costs?
the RW here are also missing my point i feel.

my point being ,
 nickB, (or most any man, anywhere)
 is not used to any woman he dates ,wether with greater income or much lesser income than himself ,
asking for a gift so soon, in this price range,
(it isnt $5,anywhere its the cost of a flight , and she
knows that as well as any womn anywhere )
 or being "upset" if he doesnt immediately agree.

your husbands point is -
The western man  should be understanding of the ecomomic disparity and cultural difference because he is knowingly shopping in another market,.

and i feel that way also.it's a valid point.

but the RW also should take some reponcibilty?
 in understanding this is not a *normal* situation for the western man, he its certainly not what he is likely accustomed to in dating,
and she should help to work thru this type of problem and situation when it arises.not quickly get in a huff. because of pride.

i DO understand why she would , its a terrible situation to be in right?
(and why personally i tried to "foresee" such needs,so she dint have to ask,,but we were in a committed relationship )

it isn't only on the western man in these situtions. She must also be flexible ,communicative, and willing to work thru the misunderstandings and the reasons behind it????

just my thoughts...
and  i feel we agree more than disagree (your husband and i)
 despite the *westerner* thinking

[Daveman]

Men are actively seeking out women in a disadvantaged country.  That is my husband's point.  They are not pursuing women in Sweden, or Denmark, or France, or even Hungary, the Czech Republic, or Poland.  For this reason, it is markedly different, even from meeting someone in your own country.

If the woman had said "Darling, there is a winter coat I'd like at the bazaar.  It is $5.  Will you buy it for me?", I doubt very strongly the negative reaction would have arisen.  That is what my husband was talking about.

Boethius, this is some of the weirdest logic I've seen in a long time. I do understand the point about men, at least seemingly, "shopping" in an economically unstable environment. 

Let's turn it around, would you, Boethius, have accepted a gift of $700 (much less ask for it) after say 3-4 dates with your husband? A $5 gift, even a $50 gift during the very beginning of the dating process, $100 or more on some wining and dining, etc.. these are quite normal.  So of course there would be no problem buying some small gift, however, a $700coat is a very different type of situation and gifts such as these are simply are not given (and certainly not requested) until after a relationship becomes more developed and there is more of a commitment involved - regardless of how deep the pockets actually are.  It is just bad form in either direction.

What is so difficult to understand about that? 

[brave girl]

Boethius, this is some of the weirdest logic I've seen in a long time.

Sorry!! you have BIG problem!! 

Let's turn it around, would you, Boethius, have accepted a gift of $700 (much less ask for it) after say 3-4 dates with your husband?

Nice Russian girl spend ONE WEEK living with peasant American man cooking sleeping and you continue to use such words as dating??    your words are weird!!
This silly man is NOT dating!! dating is having cup of tea at a cafe or something alike. UNDERSTAND??  brave girl

[Daveman]

Sorry!! you have BIG problem!!  

Nice Russian girl spend ONE WEEK living with peasant American man cooking sleeping and you continue to use such words as dating??    your words are weird!!
This silly man is NOT dating!! dating is having cup of tea at a cafe or something alike. UNDERSTAND??  brave girl

blah blah blah

So in essence, he should pay her for her services i guess... $700 a week.. pretty good salary for cookin' and sleepin'

[brave girl]

NickB had an opportunity to bail on this woman day 1. Why he kept her around for a few days is beyond me.

REALLY?? I think you know exactly!! :evil:  brave girl

[Boethius]

AJ, the point about the other countries is that there are not hordes of men descending there to meet and woo the women.  The Ukrainian papers, which I read, have a lot of articles about this issue (i.e. foreign men visting) now, the last stating "we have become a country full of sluts and whores" (the words of the Ukrainian editorialist, not mine).

Dave, it wasn't the request, it was the price that was the sticking point.  Why is that so hard to understand?

As for your question, I would never be in that position.  Call me old fashioned, but I would not be living in an apartment with a complete stranger.  I have always been interested in intellect more than material possessions.  I can't imagine considering, let alone meeting, with someone with whom I could barely communicate, with the goal of a relationship.

But then, I have options many (many, not all) FSUW don't have.  

[Jumper]

AJ, the point about the other countries is that there are not hordes of men descending there to meet and woo the women.  The Ukrainian papers, which I read, have a lot of articles about this issue (i.e. foreign men visting) now, the last stating "we have become a country full of sluts and whores" (the words of the Ukrainian editorialist, not mine).

Boethius,
well i wouldn't call it hordes,, but i do see the point!!!

as far as when i went there,many years ago, it was a close trip from prague, and i did not see any other foriegner in Dnepropetrovsk, i did see some in Kiev.
Times may have change but I highly doubt there are more than one to three western men in Dnepro,
this week looking for a bride..in fact if there is one,or two per moth, i'd be surprised. 
The Ukrianian press is famous for OVER dramatization
in any case hardly the hordes of genghis khan I think a woman can easily avoid them,if its her choice.

On language, my ex-wife's  english was good when we met, no translator. we had spoken on the phone.etc,
for me it really wasn't  different than meeting someone in prague where i was at ,at the time,, or in warsaw..or vienna.

[Boethius]

There were 26 million tourists to Ukraine last year.  That number is up by over 1 million in June-August alone in 2009.  Many of those tourists are sex tourists (let's say, conservatively, 1%, though I know it is higher).  I'm not even talking about honourable men.

I do go to Kyiv on business on occasion, and there are lots of foreigners there, and many foreign men behaving badly.

Ukraine is gaining an international reputation as a sex tourist destination.

From a non Ukrainian paper -

A survey last autumn by FEMEN revealed that an astonishing 67.5 percent of women in Kyiv between 17 and 22 had received an offer from foreigners of money for sex. And with the Euro 2012 soccer tournament fast approaching, when thousands of male fans are expected to descend on the country, concerns that the problem is not being taken seriously enough by the authorities or society led FEMEN to take to the streets to draw attention to the problem.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0613/p06s06-woeu.html

Ukraine is also one of the top three producers of child porn in the world.  It is still one of the top exporters of women, with over 300,000 victims moved out of the country into forced prostitution annually.  Recently, a ring that sold girls into prostitution was broken up.  Virtually every member of the ring was a policeman or politician.  It was only caught because one guy got too greedy and reported on the others in revenge.

So, I think you underestimate the problem, and how many foreign men are in the country at any time (not all American, obviously, lots of Europeans, and a lot of Turks, who take "sex tour buses" into Ukraine).

Sure, a woman can avoid them, but it is not a pleasant experience.

I'm not trying to dismiss all foreign marriages, AJ.  My main point here was really the cultural divide, and attitudes about women.  I can see that some just don't get it.  

[BillyB]

He would never be in this position.  

If you don't want to ask him the question because the answer will hurt your marriage, I understand and you do not need to ask. Maybe you did ask and he's dancing around the question because both a "yes" and "no" answer sounds bad based on his logic? I said "IF" and he does not need to travel to another country to date a woman and put him in the position we are in. I said he can date in America or Ukraine or basically wherever he lives and he could date the girl next door.

Now IF he was single and dated the woman next door and in a couple of days she asked him for a gift worth $700, would he shop for cheaper meat or buy it assuming she is a very fine woman(expensive high quality meat) based on the dollar amount of the gift she asked for? If he'd buy it, would he buy her a $1500 gift? A $3000 gift? I'll add another question. At what point(dollar amount) does he stop assuming she's a fine woman and figure out he's being used and shop for cheaper meat? Broethius, I don't think I can make the question any simpler at this time but if he doesn't understand, I will try, try again to make the question simpler. He does not have to go to another country to date a woman to be in our position. Remove that thought entirely from the question.

The other posts, like yours, also missed the point completely, which only Doll understood.  This has nothing to do with "providing" for a person.  It has nothing to do with "helping" a woman or "saving" her.  It has nothing to do with buying anything for anyone.  It is about recognizing the exploitation that is inherent in the situations.  It is about the men's reactions, which not only are way out of proportion to the "crime", but are also quite telling about the attitudes you have to these people, attitudes not dissimilar to those condemned by Tolstoy in many of his works.

Doll did not understand. She like some of you are making emotional judgements instead of rational. You want a real MAN to give all to his family(I have no problem with that) yet NickB has NO relationship with the woman wanting a $700 coat. She is NOT family and he should save his money for the woman who will be his family instead of foolishly spending nearly $1000 on a few dates with any and every woman he meets. You speak of exploitation yet you fail to used that word with the woman who wants a $700 coat. Nick has spent money to see her. He said he did not have sex with her. He will not go back to her and try to exploit getting sex out of her. It's over. He spent money on her and she gave him a few kisses. It's dating, not exploitation or attempted rape.

[brave girl]

So in essence, he should pay her for her services i guess... $700 a week.. pretty good salary for cookin' and sleepin'

Or maybe nice Russian woman with adult child trys to find a little happiness with man instead finds greedy sexual foreigner another one!! 
About you do you behave and speak in such ways about nice Russian girls??    brave girl