Miscommunicating with FSU gals

[Albert]

I am always quite amazed when I think of some guys corresponding with the gals who need translators for mail and then meeting with them when interpreter is needed to go on dates.  I am pretty sure that neither party really knows what is happening in the mind of the other party.

It is bad enough trying to communicate when both parties are fairly fluent in a particular language.  Even there miscommunications can occur and this more often occurs in letters, e-mails and phone conversations than in face to face conversations.

As an example, I talk regularly with the FSU gal that I spent 6 weeks with recently.  (For background, last year she only had English skills of about 2 (on ten scale) and I cancelled our planned meeting when I determined this and realized others were helping her with her e-mails to me.  But, she was persistent and contacted me again earlier this year.  She had English skills then of about 4, which was still below my cut-off, but I was intrigued by her persistence in showing interest in me, so I agreed to a meeting.  She started an intensive course of English and by the time we met in May she was about 5-6 level.  Now she is about 6-7 level, not too bad.)

Anyway, during a recent phone conversation, I understood her to say and mean a particular line of thought about a specific topic of relative importance.  I was a little upset at her words, but didn't relay that to her during the phone talk.  We had a good conversation in general.  Later, as I reflected on what she had said, I thought this might be the beginning of a problem and I was wondering what action I should take.

Much to my surprise, in her next e-mail she mentioned this very topic and our phone conversation.  She relayed that she was a little upset with my words, etc.  She retold her views of the topic and then told of my words on the topic during our phone talk.

The amazing thing was that I saw that what I had understood her to say on phone was almost the opposite of what she was now saying in the e-mail.  AND, even more amazing, I saw that her interpretation of what I had said was almost the opposite of what I had meant.

She never made a big deal out of it, and this topic only took one short paragraph of a 11-12 paragraph e-mail.  Once I saw her words, I quickly realized there was  no problem at all . . . . we had simply miscommunicated.  We fixed this up very quickly via the exchange of the next set of e-mails.

Luckily she and I are both very level headed, patient and logical and I am semi-intelligent while she is super intelligent.  But for 'quick to temper persons' or 'quick to judgement persons'  (as many FSU gals seem to be), this miscommication might have spelled the end of the relationship.  I have read of this very thing happening on these boards in a few instances.

In summary, I still do not see how there is much of a chance dealing with FSU gals who need interpreters and translators, given that communication problems can crop up even with gals who can eliminate middlemen, and have English skills of 6-7 and above.

[andrewfi]

Absolutely agree!

All the women with whom I have had relationships for the last six or seven years have had English as, at best, a second language. Some had written and spoken English that would have been more fluent than most native speakers of American English. Yet there are still more miscommunications than in a normal relationship, at least in part due to differences in the way that words are perceived to carry meaning. Like many reasonably fluent 'native English' speakers, I have had to learn to simplify my language use, to make more plain my concepts and to be more active in listening, but even so, mistakes continue to occur. I shudder to think how things go for a couple who can not pull off a conversation without resort to a dictionary or interpreter, or for guys who are not practised in 'thinking loud and slow' when dealing with non-native English speakers.

I assume always that we men do not use the native language of the country as I have yet to meet a guy visiting in search of a wife here who could muster more than a few words of Russian and certainly not as much as most motivated women can manage of English.

[al-c]

I'm going to go the opposite way on this and say that I will not simplify my English to be understood by the RW.  Not using the precise words I need to express my thoughts but instead using the simple generic words they can easier understand has led to more misunderstandings than has anything else.

And this applies with or without an interpreter.  The young girls the agencies use for interpreters are not exactly U.N. material.  Their English vocabularies are not the most extensive ones in the world.  But both the interpreters and the women themselves know enough to stop me if I use a word they do not understand.  I'm sure there are exceptions, such as interpreters seeking to impress their clients with their English "skills", but that is more of an exception than a rule.

When there is a misunderstanding, give her the benefit of the doubt and assume that it was a misunderstanding and not something offensive.  Talk about it, get to the bottom of it, and most of the time the misunderstanding will reveal itself at some point.  And if it turned out to be something offensive, this gives you a chance to talk about that, too, and in a calm and rational manner.

 

[andrewfi]

al-c, I can speak only as I find, having lived, continuously, in non-native english speaking communities since 1998. If one has a broad vocabulary then one will inevitably find that one is outpacing the ability to comprehend of almost all those you meet.

As the communicator, it behoves the speaker to be comprehensiible to his audience, if this means simplifying one's vocabulary, speaking slowly and employing active listening then this is what must be done. You will reduce the frequency of transmitted communication errors if you talk at a level that is comprehensible to your audience. With practice you will learn to understand the foibles of your interlocutor's speech and usage, reducing the reception errors.

If you can not match your communication to your audience, then you are either not trying, or the level of comprehension is below that which is sensible for ongoing communication. To attempt to ignore your audience's shortcomings is foolish and arrogant at one and the same time.

As we have seen on other threads, there are more than a few native English speakers who find it hard to communicate in ther own language, making the effort to meet those without English as a first language at an appropriate level is both polite and sensible.

BTW, talking with non-native English speakers, in English, does take practice. It does not happen overnight but can take months as one learns to recognise the traits of one's interlocutors and to adapt quickly to their needs.

[anono]

albert, very good topic.

the more time i spend here and the farther i get from the agencies, i feel the same way about the language problem. but then i have to look at my situation. when i met my present girlfriend (and very likely long term) she did not know english. she may have been a 1 on your scale.

out of all the women i have met, she was the only one that seemed to have already painted her target on me. it was very much like the "falling in love with a photograph" in the way some of the men do. it seems the minute she found my letter and profile, she has been into me and it has not wavered since.

we  had to wait a few hours before we could find a terp. our attraction to each other was obvious from the start.she has since taken english lessons from a university english teacher. unfortunately, she is being taught the "math" of english and not simple conversational english. it is taking a long time but once she finally gets her full grip on it, my feeling is she will have a very good knowledge of english in the "book" sense but she has a long way to go with the "simple speak".

my friend rostick has suggested to me that we watch american movies on DVD without subtitles so she will not resort to reading. we can play back whatever she has difficulty understanding.

out of all the women i have met, english speaking or not, she is and has been the most determined and focused lady of the bunch.

she has done everything i have asked of her learning english, dieting, shaping, and other things i cannot think of now. she has a wonderful personality, everyone who meets her says to their respective friends and then it comes back to me, that "robert is a lucky man, you do not find women like this very easliy".....this from the UW who have met her...

i also read somewhere that 70% of communication is non-verbal. of course they mean this as two people speaking the same language during conversation.

my point is, and i am sure others have experienced something similar, i am glad i met this lady and i did not have the opinion at the time to not meet non-english speaking ladies.

the funny thing is, i have that rule now, enforced about 80% of the time...

on a personal note, i love it when i use spell check and there are no corrections to be made;))

[anono]

i also see a lot of misunderstandings brought about by cultural differences.

in kiev at least, the women are so used to the men being only interested in sex, that they think this of all men.

either that or they are seeing right through me )))

[LatinSwede]

I just went ahead and learned as much Russian as I could in my freetime.  It payed off, because I can enjoy my trips over without much special attention.  Yeah, I still slaughter the grammar, and mispronounce a word here and there.  However, I can communicate my basic needs and thoughts.  Reading a menu in a cafe/bar isn't a much problem now.  My finace and I go where the locals eat and drink, and we save a bundle away from the touristy places.  I'm too cheap to pay an interpreter anyway.  It's also good that we can have something to keep people out of our conversations.  Hardly anybody can eavesdrop on us while we're dining at Cheddars.

Too bad my Russian isn't good enough to get a taxi on my own.  I keep my mouth shut and let her do the talking.

[anono]

da! i plan on learning russian in the spring. if you spend any time here on the level i do, it is simply a necessity

[Oosik]

If you don't speak it, you won't meet too many on your own, at least not in smaller towns.

However, once you do meet one, if she has 30 words, you would be amazed at how much she will improve in no time. I met the daughter of a girlfriend of a bilingual guy in Petropavlovsk, and we talked in the kitchen for 2 hours, with only a dozen calls to the living room for translation help. She went from "soviet english", which is having learned english from books, and teachers who never spoke with a native english speaker, to quite communicative in no time. To the point that if she wasn't married with a kid, I'd be trying to explain a 17 year old fiance to my mom!!! No kidding. Having to work at the language actually becomes kinda sweet, and a nice way to really pay attention to each other. Also, when you have only a few words to use, the discussions tend to be more direct and honest, less chance to "nuance" and manipulate subtly. The directness can be amazing, in a few hours you can have more intelligent conversation, and see more of her coping skills and frustration tolorance than you would in a month of normal US dating.

I do advise learning to sound out the alphabet. It is interesting how many things have similar names once you sound them out. Pronouncing numbers would be good too, but you can always have the cashiers show you the calculator when you buy something.

[LatinSwede]

I do advise learning to sound out the alphabet. It is interesting how many things have similar names once you sound them out. Pronouncing numbers would be good too, but you can always have the cashiers show you the calculator when you buy something.

 

I can say an amen to that!  Cyrillic is easy to learn.  Sometimes, I feel silly reading menu requests outloud to the Dyevoska.

[al-c]

I do advise learning to sound out the alphabet. It is interesting how many things have similar names once you sound them out. Pronouncing numbers would be good too, but you can always have the cashiers show you the calculator when you buy something.

 

I can say an amen to that!  Cyrillic is easy to learn.  Sometimes, I feel silly reading menu requests outloud to the Dyevoska.
[/quote]
That is a good technique I used with considerable success in navigating my way around a Russian city on my own, figuring out store signs and restaurant menus.

The language itself is torture, but the alpahbet, being phonetic in nature, is easy.

 

[andrewfi]

Reading is certainly easier than speaking and listening, it is also more important to survival skills in may respects. If one can understand a map, menu, signs and timetables then one can live, even if mute.

Many Russian words are derived from French and English, but unless one can read, one would never know. Also Russian is phonetic so, if you can read it, you can say it, if you can read it and say it, you can add to your vocabulary on your own, without recourse to classes, cd's and cassettes.

 

[Gef]

You are exactly right! I just came back from Kyiv last Thursday from a failed meeting (the first 3 days were great!) due to what I am sure were some misunderstandings even though her English was around an 8 and we had the help of a friend of mine. Unfortunately, such misunderstandings cannot be worked out if the lady prefers to clam up rather than discuss the matter. This is a trait I have seen in other FCU ladies I have met. I'll never know for sure what happened with us but I understood everything when I made the effort to patch things up with more roses and an offer to gift her with some boots she admired on the day before she was to return home. She asked that instead, I give her $400 for boots and a dress that she would purchase herself after she return home to Simferopol, "because there was not enough time to shop", there was time. She even offered to send me photos of them. I knew then at that moment she had no regard for me at all.

[TigerPaws]

[color="blue"][size="4"]Gef,

 4 bills for boots and a dress? She was sure looking to take you for a ride, good for you for seeing her for what she was and better luck next time.
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[groovlstk]

You are exactly right! I just came back from Kyiv last Thursday from a failed meeting (the first 3 days were great!) due to what I am sure were some misunderstandings even though her English was around an 8 and we had the help of a friend of mine. Unfortunately, such misunderstandings cannot be worked out if the lady prefers to clam up rather than discuss the matter. This is a trait I have seen in other FCU ladies I have met. I'll never know for sure what happened with us but I understood everything when I made the effort to patch things up with more roses and an offer to gift her with some boots she admired on the day before she was to return home. She asked that instead, I give her $400 for boots and a dress that she would purchase herself after she return home to Simferopol, "because there was not enough time to shop", there was time. She even offered to send me photos of them. I knew then at that moment she had no regard for me at all.

Gef, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the girl you posted about a month or so ago, asking for advice when you saw some red flags in your communication with her? And someone advised you that she was probably just insecure or nervous about your meeting, and it calmed your fears, yes?

At the time I thought your advisor's rationalization that the girl was simply insecure was absolute poppycock, and I regret not saying so at the time. Be careful of advice from the cheerleading squad...

 

[Michelangelo]

... I understood everything when I made the effort to patch things up with more roses and an offer to gift her with some boots she admired on the day before she was to return home. She asked that instead, I give her $400 for boots and a dress that she would purchase herself after she return home to Simferopol, "because there was not enough time to shop", there was time. She even offered to send me photos of them. I knew then at that moment she had no regard for me at all.

Now you know, Gef. It's lucky for you she showed her "true colors" by asking for cash from you.  Been there, done that...

Guys, FSU girls play games by dating and writing and meetings scores of guys.  Hold out for the girl who is CRAZY about you and "into you."  If you settle for less, you have troubled waters ahead...

Gef, I wish you the best of luck in finding the girl who will love and cherish you.

[Jet]

She asked that instead, I give her $400 for boots and a dress that she would purchase herself after she return home to Simferopol,

 

That had to be one hell of a set of boots!

My wife only dropped $275 on her (absolutely STUNNING) wedding dress and matching sparkly elf shoes!

[Gef]

Well, I appreciate that groovlstk. But even so, I have only myself to blame. I knew better.

[TigerPaws]

[color="blue"][size="4"]Gef,

 Most of us have made mistakes so do not let it get you down, I once flew to Kiev to meet just 1 girl without a back up plan in the middle of winter. I knew within 10 minutes when she met me at the airport I was not interested in her, so spent a couple of days, had good time and got the Hell out of Dodge.
 Oh well live and learn.
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