not sure where to put this, but 3 questions

[vwrw]

I agree, good judgement can be very useful indeed. But the judge who evaluates his/her own rationality is biased. According to my books on management, sound and good judgment is a scare talent. However, the majority of people thinks that their own judgment is good. 

Two people in a correspondence being honest and not embellishing anything can increase the chances of success, but the problem is that there is no way to know until you meet if the person is being honest. You can trust that other is honest. But trust that is not based on history (and two people in correspondence usually do not have history) is based on gambling. Gambling does not follow the rules of judgment. I mean you can have the best judgment, but you will not be able reliably predict whether the red or black number occurs next.

[vwrw]

Here's another guess for you; in general, even though a man may meet many women in a WMVM scenario, his chances of success are still less than a VO trip because of one or more of the following 1) generally the women willing to do this aren't that serious, 2) they generally don't view the man as being that serious, 3) the man doesn't or couldn't spend enough time on narrowing the field to the most compatible candidates.

All three assumptions of yours are wrong; probably because of being a VO man, you do not know what VM people think.
1) I was willing to do this and i was serious,
2) I view my man as being serious,
3) the man did and could spend enough time on narrowing the field to the most compatible candidates to a few.

The difference between a VO and VM man is that a VO man narrows his choices to one and a VM man narrows his choice to a few. 

[Ade]

All three assumptions of yours are wrong; probably because of being a VO man, you do not know what VM people think.
1) I was willing to do this and i was serious,
2) I view my man as being serious,
3) the man did and could spend enough time on narrowing the field to the most compatible candidates to a few.

The difference between a VO and VM man is that a VO man narrows his choices to one and a VM man narrows his choice to a few. 

No, my statements were fairly accurate I'd say, going by what men and women have said on various boards that I've been reading for the past couple of years. Maybe you missed that I said "generally" although I'll admit I failed to qualify the last statement I made, it was intended as a generalisation. There will always be exceptions to the rule, and maybe you and Turbodude were one of them.

[vwrw]

I disagree that those who are WMVM are less serious.   The are every  bit as serious as those using other approaches but are aware of the risks and want to increase their chance of success. I don't think Turbo and I are the exception.  I think those who make trips without serious intentions to find the right one are the exception.

[Jumper]

shhesh,
this debate is ten years old,


the only real difference ,
if people are being forthright and honest,

is

that one group , BOTH narrowing the field by letters and phone,

the other group  is narrowing the field by meeting in person
(like real life everyday meetings do.so its not some horrible practice its made out to be)


the one and only thing that muddies the WMVM situation, ,is the openess of the participants.
this should come as no surprise to any adult,seeing how very few people when dating locally are open to the point of tackiness..so its easy for the line between being clear in intent,and being tasteless and abusing the situation exists.

again  i say that people KNOW when they are being noraml,with tact,
and when they are being deceitful

[Mars]

Quite nice that just this past week two posters have put forth some simple logic that takes the place of hundreds of passionate arguments back and forth about given topics.

AJ is referring to the WMVM vs WOVO topic.
Misha refers to the Scam and Sex Tourists worries.

Thanks to both AJ and Misha.  Maybe these two quotes or some version thereof can be permanently posted somewhere, and then reference can simply be made to them when appropriate.

that one group , BOTH narrowing the field by letters and phone,

the other group  is narrowing the field by meeting in person

Misha:  "My rationale is quite simple: men afraid of pro-daters should refrain from spending money they do not want to spend and women terrified of sex tourists should simply not sleep with foreign men unless they are attracted to them and want to sleep with them. There is nothing complicated to it."

[RussianWind]

I disagree that those who are WMVM are less serious. 

They may be not but they can't give the same ammount of attention. If you are taken by one person through correspondence/conversations, you don't need others. If you are not, if you don't feel this is the right person for you, simply don't waste yours and hers time for meeting. I believe chances of success higher in VO.

4 girls of 5 will cancel VM meeting in the last minute if they know you are going to meet many girls. Simply not to waste their time. This is a fact.

[Ade]

I disagree that those who are WMVM are less serious.   The are every  bit as serious as those using other approaches but are aware of the risks and want to increase their chance of success. I don't think Turbo and I are the exception.  I think those who make trips without serious intentions to find the right one are the exception.

Maybe you misunderstood me or I've misunderstood you but let me clarify; I'm not saying men doing WMVM trips are less serious, I'm saying that most women view them as less serious, or maybe I should say "less committed", than those that do a WOVO. And those women that entertain men they know are visiting others tend to be less committed because of that or because they are generally only into it for the "benefits". Women have said that they have more self respect than to allow themselves to be involved in a man's "shopping trip"; from what I've read, most women feel this way. Yes, there are exceptions but I'm generalising here, going by what has been posted in various places among other things.

[RussianWind]

they have more self respect than to allow themselves to be involved in a man's "shopping trip";

Wholesale 

[Turboguy]

They may be not but they can't give the same ammount of attention. I

Why would the amount of attention be any different for a man coming to see you for 5 days before he goes and visits Olga in Moscow for 5 days than another man who comes and visits you for 5 days and then goes home?

I believe chances of success higher in VO.

I would agree with you for the woman the chances of success are probably higher for the man they are likely lower.

4 girls of 5 will cancel VM meeting in the last minute if they know you are going to meet many girls. Simply not to waste their time. This is a fact.

I don't think it is a fact RW.  I made a lot of trips to visit Multiple women and never had a woman not want to meet me.   80% never even asked me.  The rest had no problem at all with it although I am sure they would have rather had me just visiting them.

Maybe you misunderstood me or I've misunderstood you but let me clarify; I'm not saying men doing WMVM trips are less serious, I'm saying that most women view them as less serious, or maybe I should say "less committed", than those that do a WOVO.

I will agree with you that a woman who is meeting a man and knows she is not the only one on his trip that he is meeting is likely to fell he is less committed.   There is nothing wrong with that since he is less committed.   He is making the trip to see if he has a prospect to committ to.   

The real end result is he is less likely to get laid and since that is not the purpose of his trip I am sure it is not something that matters one way or the other.

[vwrw]

the only real difference ,
if people are being forthright and honest,

is

that one group , BOTH narrowing the field by letters and phone,

the other group  is narrowing the field by meeting in person
(like real life everyday meetings do.so its not some horrible practice its made out to be)

Good point! I agree with you.

I will agree with you that a woman who is meeting a man and knows she is not the only one on his trip that he is meeting is likely to fell he is less committed.   There is nothing wrong with that since he is less committed.   He is making the trip to see if he has a prospect to committ to.   

I am wondering how desperate a person should be to be willing to commite himself to a woman he has never met? :evil:

[Turboguy]

4 girls of 5 will cancel VM meeting in the last minute if they know you are going to meet many girls. Simply not to waste their time. This is a fact.

I am curious how many of these 4 out of 5 RW that would cancel a meeting at the last minute are making the same commitment to the man they want to meet.

If they expect him to committ to only meeting her they should be only willing to meet him.   If they are writing other men and meeting Dave on his trip in Feb and Joe during his trip in March and Sam in April it is the same as a guy meeting 3 ladies on one trip.   I personally doubt that 4 out of 5 women are only writing to and willing to meet that one guy.  If they are they are possibly stupid although there are relationships where it is appropriate. 

[Ade]

I don't think it is a fact RW.  I made a lot of trips to visit Multiple women and never had a woman not want to meet me.   80% never even asked me.  The rest had no problem at all with it although I am sure they would have rather had me just visiting them.
I will agree with you that a woman who is meeting a man and knows she is not the only one on his trip that he is meeting is likely to fell he is less committed.   There is nothing wrong with that since he is less committed.   He is making the trip to see if he has a prospect to committ to.  

The real end result is he is less likely to get laid and since that is not the purpose of his trip I am sure it is not something that matters one way or the other.

Most FSUW I've seen posting about this will say that they aren't or weren't interested in meeting a guy that was meeting others. You can argue until you are blue in the face about whether you think this is fair but the fact of the matter is, most women, normal, everyday women, feel this way. Maybe a lot of those jaded by the MOB scene or those that are desperate will think differently but that's neither here nor there really.

And let's be blunt here Turbo, you are pretty old and you were pursuing women with a vast age difference so you weren't exactly targeting, or being targeted by, what most people would consider average women as most with that age difference wouldn't even consider having a coffee with you let alone marrying you.

FWIW, I used "committed" in the sense of "committed to pursing a relationship with that person" at least until it is obvious that it wouldn't work. I thought that was fairly obvious.  

[Turboguy]

SJ, I won't argue about fair.  How many WMVM trips did you make to form that opinion?  How many WMVM trips did RW make to meet women?   My point is simply that I made a lot of them and never have any problem with women cancelling meetings or refusing to meet me.   I am sure if the topic was handled wrong it could be a problem. 

Is it normal to committ to a person you have never met?   Isn't that like falling in love with photos and what happened to "you are only pen pals until you meet?"

[RussianWind]

I don't think it is a fact RW.  I made a lot of trips to visit Multiple women and never had a woman not want to meet me.   80% never even asked me.  The rest had no problem at all with it although I am sure they would have rather had me just visiting them.

Make a poll on a women's forum and you will see. I make statements based not on my opinion, it is based on what forum girls say and what my friends say.
It depends on. Agency girls will never cancel a meeting. Guess why? Because agencies will stop working with them.

[Sculpto]

MOB scene = death

[RussianWind]

Is it normal to committ to a person you have never met? 

Nobody is speaking about it thought I've heard about couple of success stories who proposed marriage before even meeting.

[Ade]

SJ, I won't argue about fair.  How many WMVM trips did you make to form that opinion?  How many WMVM trips did RW make to meet women?   My point is simply that I made a lot of them and never have any problem with women cancelling meetings or refusing to meet me.   I am sure if the topic was handled wrong it could be a problem. 

No VM; it's all just deductions made by what I've read here, there and other places, what my wife and her friends have said not to mention what women tend to say on Russian forums. Yes, I know there are women that don't mind it but I'm talking of the majority.

Is it normal to committ to a person you have never met?   Isn't that like falling in love with photos and what happened to "you are only pen pals until you meet?"

After talking to someone openly every day for 2 months I'd have to be pretty oblivious not to know if there was enough between us to be worth committing to pursuing a relationship. In fact the only thing that could get in the way would be the lack of chemistry. Either way, even if the physical chemistry thing didn't work out, I'd be committed to pursing a friendship with that person. I'm not talking about a commitment to be married here.

[BillyB]

he can't stop mentionning every 5 minutes something about screwing a young cutie.

So while I'm not a puritan, seeing the girl you're dreaming about blowing the tire of an old pervert isn't exactly something that make you feel good.

So, I am allowed to be

-Hurt by feeling cheated
-Disappointed in her for falling for a freaking old pervert
-Feel stupid not to see it coming

PS I didn't sleep much recently, so don't take litterally every word I said in last post for.

Jepito, unless your buddy was buying women with money, there may be a good thing or two you can learn from that man.

There are two types of Impala herds. One type of herd has one male and around 25 females. The other herd consists of nothing but male Impala. Does Impala herds remind anyone of their college days?

Being an Alpha male is where you need to be if you want to attract the girls. You feel you have youth, integrity and would be more loyal to a woman yet the old guy got the girl and servicing her physical needs while you spent more money than he on your trip and maybe got a kiss goodnight.

[Jepito]

Lesson learned: screw every women at every occasion.

Sarcasm aside, if she's so shortsighted to the point of only being concerned about fullfilling her physical need, so be it. When she'll think she might need more than just a banging, she can call me. It will be with a great pleasure that I'll tell her to get lost.

Life goes on, she's past.

[Turboguy]

Jepto, it could have been a lot worse.   You might have married the gal before you found out who she really was.   

This venture can have some heartbreak and disappointment along the way but when you meet the woman who is there someplace for you this episode will fade away and be forgotten.   Good luck in the future.

[Faux Pas]

vwrw,
IMO good judgement can be very usefull and increases the chances WOVO or WMVM.

FauxPas,
I think I would disagree with you about the percentage rates. I think the chances at the first meeting are greatly influenced by the amount of attention one uses in those communications, as you have stated about being honest and not embellishing, current pictures etc. All of these things can greatly increase or decrease ones "chances" IMO.
Just like you, when I met my wife face to face there were no surprises, just confirmations and delight. To this day I am confident that we made good choices, because even though it has only been 5 years, our marriage is getting stronger as time goes on.
In my imagination you are a humble man and I think there must have been more than dumb luck that contributed to your success.

Gylden thank you for that. I consider humble a quality trait. Yes there was much more than luck involved but, there was also a degree of luck. While I contacted many and many contacted me, I spoke to many on the telephone and shared many emails, there was only one that I found interesting enough to plan a visit. She is now my wife. I do believe there was luck in that. I've seen many guys on the forum with repeated failures. How much of that is luck, failure of due diligence or playing out of their league I don't know.

Although I did consider it, I never seriously considered being a WMVM. I communicated with many women until either they didn't find me interesting anymore or I didn't find them interesting. I could have easily run out of ladies to qualify and I did, all but one. It then became evident to me that this is a very special woman and a really cool person that I just had to meet. I knew from dating multiple women at various times at home that I am a WOVO. Lying or skirting the truth has never been something I was good at. I had no doubt doing a WMVM I was destined to fail.

I'll stick with the percentages I mentioned. There either will be a connection or there won't. That's 50% and it is a two way equation, the man and the woman.

[BillyB]

Lesson learned: screw every women at every occasion.

Sarcasm aside, if she's so shortsighted to the point of only being concerned about fullfilling her physical need, so be it. When she'll think she might need more than just a banging, she can call me. It will be with a great pleasure that I'll tell her to get lost.

Life goes on, she's past.

Jepito, you're missing the point of what I was saying. This isn't about her, it's about you. What can you learn from that old guy? What is it about you that's attracting women? If you find you are not having success catching women compared to an old guy, you need to rethink how you're presenting yourself. Women today find me more attractive than when I was 20 years old when I had an athletic body, more hair but I had less brains.

[Jepito]

Usually, I don't have too much trouble getting a girl. Well, I need and do more effort than just snapping my fingers. I was not purposely looking for a woman abroad. It just happened that this girl was latvian. But it's the first time something like that happens to me. I'm not an old monkey so you can still teach me new faces.

But what I can learn from that old guy... What I'll say is not from anger or bad feeling, but from what I know from him. We work in the same industry, so I had contacts with him. He's 62, from England, divorced, 3 kids, no real education (both meaning, diploma and upbringing, he's not really the definition of classy). What I know from him when I talked with him before: he's a real pervert. Even when we talk about business, he can't refrain from mentionning sexual topic/joke every 2 minutes. And he runs after 5-6 girls (never older than 25) at the same time. I was not even aware that he knew the girl that he was already annoying me. (my associate say that he's just pathetic and don't want to do business with him).

I was with him on a few occasion and I saw him going to talk to girls (always young cuties) who didn't ask him. Within three minutes (barely joking) he was telling them out loud that they'd get the best orgasms of their life with him. Never see any obviously sharing his enthousiasm. But he kept going.

So what should I learn from that guy: think about sex 24/7 and ask directly every girl if they want to sleep with me? I'm quite open about sex but while I'm still young (late 20ies), I'm looking for something more than just nightstands. I don't have issues approching girls, talking to them or get girlfriend.

Seriously, I'm not sure what I can learn from that guy. (apart to keep him away from my next GF)

[BillyB]

Seriously, I'm not sure what I can learn from that guy. (apart to keep him away from my next GF)

Based on what you say about the guy, you should have no problems with your GF falling for him. Most women would not. Women don't need a guy within 3 minutes of meeting to tell her he will give her an orgasm. They can pick most any guy on the street if they want something. Catching a lot of women while being a pervert doesn't sound right. Are you exaggerating a little about this man?