Lucky or ?

[Gylden]

As I have said already here on other posts, I am new here and new to forums in general.
I am married now for 5 years 4th of Feb. I can’t imagine there could be a better woman for me.
After reading through some of the threads I discovered that according to the popular line of thinking, I made plenty of classic mistakes.
1.   I sent her money for travel, visa etc. Before ever meeting her in person. (in fact, I asked her to research how much she needed and then sent her a good bit more in case there were surprises which we had not anticipated)
2.   She was the only woman I was interested in. (I didn’t have any “back – up” women in mind)
3.   I never went to the FSU until after being married for 4 years for a vacation. (although I arranged our first meeting in Poland which technically is FSU)
Of course I had questions in my mind about matters of trust concerning a woman, whom I had only had electronic communication with (including telephone calls). I never thought to ask advice from anyone.  I used my time to think about the situation and to communicate with her as much as possible. I did my best to pay attention to her responses and to relate to her experiences and reactions as we talked. In the end I was pretty much convinced that she was genuine and I would have been surprised if it turned out different. Also I think it is the ultimate test of sincerity to allow another to demonstrate their character in reality. (IMO one must not be as greedy as to interfere with this process).
My question is this; do you think I was just lucky? Or is there maybe something to allowing someone to demonstrate their character?

[BillyB]

1.   I sent her money for travel, visa etc. Before ever meeting her in person. (in fact, I asked her to research how much she needed and then sent her a good bit more in case there were surprises which we had not anticipated)

You did not get scammed. Other men would. In a perfect World without scammers you did the right thing in paying for the date/meeting with your lady. I don't know how much correspondence you went through before you decided to meet her but you did say you paid attention to her carefully your communications to determine she was genuine. In some ways you were lucky but you seem to do a decent job letting her demonstrate her character.

I still could not recommend a guy to meet a woman which requires sending money first before the first meeting. I seen too many guys get burned from scammers or guys who meet in Paris with a sincere woman and within 10 minutes of sitting in a coffee shop, the woman decides she's not interested. There are cheaper and less risky ways of having a woman demonstrate her character by having solid correspondence that involves a lot of phone calls and hard questions and a first meeting in her hometown.

[Gylden]

BillyB,
If I remember correctly it was 3 or maybe 4 months after we first chatted on ICQ when we met in person. We were communicating daily in that period and quite frankly IMO if a reasonably intelligent man can't tell with a reasonable amount of confidence what kind of character the woman he is talking to has, it may be that he is not really capable of such an endeavor in the first place. After all, a man can do everything "by the book" so to speak, get married only to find that as soon as his wife has established herself finds himself single again. I have seen the most "clever" men take all of the precautions, including pre-nuptuals and still end up single. I think that how can I say "real" women or "clever" women can sense this apprehension in a man and it can spoil some of the romance, which should be between men and women.
Anyway just some of my thoughts about this subject, thanks for posting, it is nice to have some interaction with others to "compare notes".

[Jumper]

After all, a man can do everything "by the book" so to speak, get married only to find that as soon as his wife has established herself finds himself single again. I have seen the most "clever" men take all of the precautions, including pre-nuptuals and still end up single.

i think you answered your own question,
you got incredibly lucky.

its not just about being cautious or clever..
overly cautious will ruin things without any doubt. Ive seen plenty of these relationships ruined over that.

as far as established.i made sure my wife was established as fast as humanly possible,
truth is she had great english, great driver ,the type of outgoing personality and determination to make it on her own
from day one if she choose to..and certainly had the tools and the skills,
a car, green card , and SSN the week of arrival.. driving around the very first day.


but if you want honest answers, then taking the added risks, as you did ,was simply not necessary to establish yourself as "trusting" either.  it did show her this one character trait,but wasn't a needed way to do so.
 you could have visited her in her home city.
you could have showed your true character in person without the added risk that you took.
there would be plenty of time and other situations to  establish yourself as a trusting and generous person of good character.
 RW are quite sharp.she would have figured you out as a person with face to face time,,without that first blind faith leap
you took, and meeting her in her own city,  would not have hurt your relationship in any way..
(other cautious acts might,but not this one)

someone just as astute ,and just as sincere could easily be single in that 5 years time frame .
even within a *same culture* marriage. happens everyday
because even with the best intentions ,,and even knowing her for awhile,
you still ultimately marry someone that you cant know for certain,(regardless what you think,,true that they can turn out to be that person,but you cant know it)
,or know how they will react to relocation and culture for certain..
there simply are no guarantees, for either side of this.
my wife took huge risks as well,and she found out
i was who she believed me to be, but also felt lucky about that.

 just because you can evaluate people well ...only "limits " the risk somewhat.
how much, or what percentage, is highly debatable.

i'm not knocking your approach,.. i agree with billyb,that in a perfect world its the right thing.
and I also took plenty of risks and broke  more than a few commandments.. most maried guys here  have!yoiu b esurprised probably.(and it may illustrate your point of the cautious not have very good odds)
Like you i believed being trusting and allowing the relationship to develop as naturally as it could,, was worth those risks.
(and it was)
i also knew my wife two years before marriage..(no not lots of writing, i met her 3 weeks after first email and phone call)
it was a lot of visits and time spent together,not from being cautious or concerened,
from  a genuine desiere of both parties to do so,,and let the relationship build,of course  towards marriage ,but not be the sole focus from *first date* ) 
Now granted we went beyond your 5 year window,(6) but ultimately i am single.

to say i wasn't astute or good at reading people .. wouldn't be the case.
 one huge reason that i was willing to take the risk,is i knew,without any doubt..
that she was the type of person,that no matter ultimately how things turned out, would not take undue advantage or intentionally hurt anyone.Which is true and proven out.


Despite this , i still consider myself incredibly lucky,and you should as well

[Gylden]

I do consider my self lucky, but not about the money. Logic and common sense told me that there is a risk of losing money in this way, and as I value money most certainly I also place a good value on my time. My decision was based on showing some trust but also, what does it cost for example to send flowers and have her picture taken for example or hire some private detective? I didn't see any point in traveling to Ukraine, simply because I thought it was more important for her to see this side, as it is where most logically we would be living. Also at the time it would have taken more time for me to organise a visa to Ukraine.
Anyway as I said I do consider myself lucky that I found her.
If I would have lost the money however I wouldn't have considered myself un-lucky, if you can understand that.

[Boethius]

Well, the pedant in me couldn't let this pass uncommented on -

I never went to the FSU until after being married for 4 years for a vacation. (although I arranged our first meeting in Poland which technically is FSU)

The FSU is comprised of the fifteen former Soviet republics.  Poland was always an independent country, albeit under Soviet influence, and part of the Eastern bloc.

Glad things worked out for you.

[remiel6]

About the only thing I wouldn't do is send money to someone I hadn't met, but I think the original post has an important aspect to it that gets missed by a lot of people.
The the goal is to find a partner in life you have to trust them. That doesn't mean unfettered access to your bank account, but the whole process is a risk and any search has to have a certain amount of "luck". The poet in me smiles and prefers to maybe substitute the word "fate" in here for luck, but that's merely for poetic licence 

[GQBlues]

Gylden-

For the most part, I was like you. I didn't care much for the 'commandments' (used to be referred to as Tablets of Stone) and took the responsibility on my own. I saw fit to follow my own instincts and decisions over and above someone in the internet I do not know. I'll follow that creed any day.

I'm not saying wisdom does not reside in those commandments though I believe its applicability is directly proportionate to a particular man's inability to, or a clear lack of, making sane decisions on their own.

[Mars]

Yes, you were incredibly lucky.  Not that you found a great wife, but that you didn't get slickered.

True, a person can take as much care as possible and be super cautious, and still get slickered.  But it makes no sense to toss all caution to the wind.

You are being a good person by somewhat admitting that you were lucky and not necessarily propounding that others follow your path.  This is in contrast to many who follow an extremely stupid path, get lucky (but don't know it or admit it) and then recommend that path to others.

Personally, I have not encountered scammers (there were maybe some potential scammers who got screened out after first message), so I have no horror story to tell.  However, I have read plenty of the horror stories on these boards regarding scammers, guys who go on WOVO and waste their entire yearly vacation, etc. (No, I am not equating scammers to WOVO).

So I think it is very much in the best interest of newbies that those who have been lucky kindly refrain from posting about their situation . . . unless they are going to include a disclaimer in capital letters in each of their posts that no one else should 'try this at home.'

And along the same line of thought:  It would be very useful to newbies that men who post about 'how to do this' clearly state in each of their posts that they are from Europe (if they are), or were living in Europe or FSU.  Otherwise they end up giving a very unrealistic picture and advice to those from the west side of the ocean, who cannot possibly follow the recommended path.

Each man who has achieved what they want should take a careful step back and ask themselves:  Regardless of what I achieved, did my procedures really make good sense and meet the test of logic and rational thought?  In many cases the answer would be a resounding NO.  In these cases, the fairest thing to do is to refrain from propounding your method.

But gloating is probably a powerful impulse; hard to suppress.
And yes, I know romance doesn't have to follow a rational or logical path.

[tfcrew]

 

Yes, you were incredibly lucky.  Not that you found a great wife, but that you didn't get slickered.

I fall into one of those ranks too.
Isn't it Shakespear? ..Faint heart ne'r won fair maiden..
Doubt if I could do all this again without falling flat.

[Gylden]

Mars,
Thanks for your interesting response but you are wrong. I am propounding (to suggest or put forward for consideration).
I did say that I was lucky to find my wife. However I don’t believe the way I went about things, is a recipe for disaster for all men. Every one of us is different (luckily) and of course not everyone will have the same results using the same processes. (but you probably agree with that)
As for newbie’s or whatever you like to call them, ( I have to tell you that terminology doesn’t seem so respectful, but I understand it as some sort of fraternity play) I am not sure they all need protection.
Also I am not sure it is so kind to ask one to refrain from posting on a public forum. As grown men must know that free advice is worth what you pay for it. (it means there is no assumed liability in telling about ones experiences).
In closing I would like to refresh myself by making clear to all that I do think there is plenty of a valuable and interesting experience and help here on RWD. I look forward to sharing my thoughts here as well.
 

[JR]

This just goes to show you there are no absolutes

Scammers will scam.

Honest, sincere people will be...well honest and sincere.

Yay for you Glyden!

[Mars]

Hi Gylden.  After reading your response, I re-read my posting and realized it didn't quite read the way I had intended.

First, although I made some reference to your situation, my remarks were meant to be mostly of a general nature to all those who might find themselves in a lucky situation for one reason or another.

Second, I didn't mean to ask that anyone refrain from posting, but rather they refrain from posting about their situation in a manner that did not clearly acknowledge their luck, that their procedures clearly did not meet the test of logic, good sense, not recommended, etc., as appropriate.

Sorry!!  :-))

[GQBlues]

As for newbie’s or whatever you like to call them, ( I have to tell you that terminology doesn’t seem so respectful, but I understand it as some sort of fraternity play) I am not sure they all need protection.

Completely agree.

Also I am not sure it is so kind to ask one to refrain from posting on a public forum. As grown men must know that free advice is worth what you pay for it. (it means there is no assumed liability in telling about ones experiences).

True. But I believe it is much better that people must first consider the source - if at all possible.

For one, a man who endlessly finds himself home alone despite the admitted number of prospective single women around him being getting dates from hundreds of men except him - should not be offering an opinion on how to date women.

In closing I would like to refresh myself by making clear to all that I do think there is plenty of (a) valuable and interesting experience and help here on RWD. I look forward to sharing my thoughts here as well.

Well said.

[RussianWind]

You are just a sniper 

Most men are using a sledge-hammer to crack a nut instead of thinking

[Mars]

For one, a man who endlessly finds himself home alone despite the admitted number of prospective single women around him being getting dates from hundreds of men except him - should not be offering an opinion on how to date women.

First, in my comments to OP, there was nothing said about 'how to date women.'

Are there refresher courses in elementary reading in your area?

Second, you will have to show us a direct quote from me that said anything about:
a) endlessly alone,
b) my not getting dates.

If you cannot show the quotes or simply disappear from this thread, then we shall know that you are just making up more BS as usual.

If you are getting lessons from the Master about how to twist a person's words, then you need to get your money back.

[Sculpto]

First, in my comments to OP, there was nothing said about 'how to date women.'

Are there refresher courses in elementary reading in your area?

Second, you will have to show us a direct quote from me that said anything about:
a) endlessly alone,
b) my not getting dates.

If you cannot show the quotes or simply disappear from this thread, then we shall know that you are just making up more BS as usual.

If you are getting lessons from the Master about how to twist a person's words, then you need to get your money back.

Mars.. we arent stupid here.. your recent threads said all most of us need to know.  You arent going to try and convince anyone of anything different now that you know how the game is played.

[Mars]

Mars.. we arent stupid here.. your recent threads said all most of us need to know.  You arent going to try and convince anyone of anything different now that you know how the game is played.

All I asked was a simple; Show me the quote.  
Otherwise, we can all say anything we want about what another person has supposedly said.
I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, except for the desire to have some honesty in our posts when we are portraying what another person has said.
Very simple.  Just honesty.
And if someone wants to continue to be dishonest; then they can display this dishonesty by failure to back up their words with any quotes.

Further, I don't know what you are talking about re: "how the game is played" unless you are referring to the lying about what another person has said.

[Doll]

(although I arranged our first meeting in Poland which technically is FSU)

[Doll]

As I have said already here on other posts, I am new here and new to forums in general.
I am married now for 5 years 4th of Feb. I can’t imagine there could be a better woman for me.
After reading through some of the threads I discovered that according to the popular line of thinking, I made plenty of classic mistakes.
1.   I sent her money for travel, visa etc. Before ever meeting her in person. (in fact, I asked her to research how much she needed and then sent her a good bit more in case there were surprises which we had not anticipated)
2.   She was the only woman I was interested in. (I didn’t have any “back – up” women in mind)
3.   I never went to the FSU until after being married for 4 years for a vacation. (although I arranged our first meeting in Poland which technically is FSU)
Of course I had questions in my mind about matters of trust concerning a woman, whom I had only had electronic communication with (including telephone calls). I never thought to ask advice from anyone.  I used my time to think about the situation and to communicate with her as much as possible. I did my best to pay attention to her responses and to relate to her experiences and reactions as we talked. In the end I was pretty much convinced that she was genuine and I would have been surprised if it turned out different. Also I think it is the ultimate test of sincerity to allow another to demonstrate their character in reality. (IMO one must not be as greedy as to interfere with this process).
My question is this; do you think I was just lucky? Or is there maybe something to allowing someone to demonstrate their character?

It's my husband's story except for "Poland" and we've been married for 8 years (also in February)

[Vaughn]

Same storyline here....  broke a few rules. Courted without advice of any forum.

Write One, Visit One. We both knew the odds were preposterous. I believe that
notion helped us to see more clearly, to keep wild expectations in check.

Loaded up on travelers cheques for Trip #1 - what a fiasco trying to unload those!

We'll be married 7 years this February. And Mars, yes - she and I both got lucky to
have avoided all the landmine situations we read about here.

Gylden asked,

Or is there maybe something to allowing someone to demonstrate their character?

Something profoundly wise. Patience and discernment will take one a long way.

[JR]

Mars.. we arent stupid here..

Hey Eric, speak for yourself OK!

[Jumper]

Glyden-
You followed your heart, and own advise, and took some risks you were willing to take..
no problem with that, i did the same.
and I wouldn't have regretted it,however the chips fell.
and still don't.
 
I will say i would never advise someone to do the poland (or third country thing) for  a first meeting.
you dont have anything to prove at that point ,untill you meet and have some connection.
aa there's  plenty of time to show your fine character, there's no race to the finish.

Arranging her, and your trip to poland ,,wasnt a bad idea,..?
i just don't think it was any easier than you traveling to ukraine..
Keep in mind i traveled there,,roughly the same time period or before (both poland and ukraine..
the visa was easy enough,,and if she wasnt traveling, "half"  the logistics to cover.
poland was hardly a "taste " for her of the USA ?

i understand,, well that it was worth it to you. been there have the T shirt
and i admitted i took plenty of similar risks.. ,...!!

but i wouldn't advise anyone the need to do any of my sillyness,
nor yours

you two would have hit it off in her home city,and  on follow up trips wherever they might be.

that particular risk was rewarded,,but never needed to be taken..
others risks,and trusts, along your relationship path ,would have been worth it,,and obviously were taken..both big and small risks i'm sure.

that first one,was just not needed,,and a new guy to this wouldn't be a good pattern to follow.??
you admit it was mostly for *convenience* (easier)

A guy coming here and asking if he should fly his pen pal /phone pal to poland would be told no.
and for good reason.

if the couple is meant to be and are sincere..
the trifle of where they first meet isnt much in the big picture.

to the guy left in poland ,
while some woman and her boyfriend   in Lungunsk spends his cash..
it matters..


i fully agree with the overall point that trust in this venture is paramont.
I'll not outline all the silly things i did ,that would seem completely foolhardy..
as they certainly showed my level of trust, and i did not get burned..
but I'd never advise someone to do all of them..
some yes, some absolutely not.
most i certainly took after first meeting,
since we met immediately, i never really had the opportunity to do anything silly beforehand
given the chance i'm sure i would have;)

so yes
i was just plain dumb LUCKY



lol

[Ade]

As I have said already here on other posts, I am new here and new to forums in general.
I am married now for 5 years 4th of Feb. I can’t imagine there could be a better woman for me.
After reading through some of the threads I discovered that according to the popular line of thinking, I made plenty of classic mistakes.
1.   I sent her money for travel, visa etc. Before ever meeting her in person. (in fact, I asked her to research how much she needed and then sent her a good bit more in case there were surprises which we had not anticipated)
2.   She was the only woman I was interested in. (I didn’t have any “back – up” women in mind)
3.   I never went to the FSU until after being married for 4 years for a vacation. (although I arranged our first meeting in Poland which technically is FSU)
Of course I had questions in my mind about matters of trust concerning a woman, whom I had only had electronic communication with (including telephone calls). I never thought to ask advice from anyone.  I used my time to think about the situation and to communicate with her as much as possible. I did my best to pay attention to her responses and to relate to her experiences and reactions as we talked. In the end I was pretty much convinced that she was genuine and I would have been surprised if it turned out different. Also I think it is the ultimate test of sincerity to allow another to demonstrate their character in reality. (IMO one must not be as greedy as to interfere with this process).
My question is this; do you think I was just lucky? Or is there maybe something to allowing someone to demonstrate their character?

I guess my story is similar to yours although I didn't send money, I paid for her travel expenses to SPB to meet me there. Whoops, I didn't meet in her home town at first, I guess that's one oft touted recommendation I ignored right there. Oh, and she was the one that contacted me on a western dating site; isn't that a "red flag" according to some?

Like you I didn't ask any advice of anyone (nor have I ever) about this and only found and joined this forum after I'd already visited my now wife in SPB.

I did perform a few basic scam checks myself and sent some flowers to her address from a recommended flower seller I found elsewhere but I've been on one net or another since the early 80's and lived in several countries so I'm not entirely naive to the ways of the world. I didn't have a backup plan; why would I? I was only interested in meeting her and if it went pear shaped, well, that would have been that, I would have gone home and continued to date here in Norway like I'd done for years and chalked it all up to experience. Personally, I find this obsession some people have with finding a FSU wife to the exclusion of every other woman in the world to be somewhat bizarre, but that's just me.

To answer your question in the subject, although we can, with some planning and intelligence, engineer the odds in our favour, there is still a great deal of luck involved in finding the right person to share your life with. I'm the first to admit that I was extremely lucky that my wife found me on that dating site and that I, unlike all the other emails from FSUW that I deleted over the years, chose to respond to hers.
 

[boaterguy]

About the only thing I wouldn't do is send money to someone I hadn't met, but I think the original post has an important aspect to it that gets missed by a lot of people.
The the goal is to find a partner in life you have to trust them. That doesn't mean unfettered access to your bank account, but the whole process is a risk and any search has to have a certain amount of "luck". The poet in me smiles and prefers to maybe substitute the word "fate" in here for luck, but that's merely for poetic licence 

I was given a good advice from the owner of Global Ladies when I was going to meet my wife for the 1st time. If I was going to meet my wife in Moscow I was going to have to pay her airfare from Novosibirsk. He told me this is a good test of a woman's character. If she doesn't show up then it probably saved you a bunch of money, If she shows up it's a very good sign, If she gives you change back then she's a keeper!