Who is really a scammer?

[mies]

http://www.segodnya.ua/news/14100274.html

[Faux Pas]

mies

Thats going to be difficult to read and comment on for most members 

[mies]

Sorry - I'll give a summary of the article.
Author of this article says that since recently - many agencies write letters "on behalf" of the female agency members, requesting money from foreign males. Agencies deny this practice, and suggest that scammers are doing it - after stealing the girls' photos from agency websites.
In two stories quoted by the author of the article, WMs came to Ukraine and confronted the women. One man was surprised that woman's knowledge of foreign language has not improved after he sent her  $4800 to pay for her language classes. The woman claims she never corresponded with man regarding language classes, never asked him for money, and never saw these money. Another man came to woman's apartment with a police officer demanding to return 1500$ he had sent her for photoshooting through the agency. Woman demanded explanations from the agency. The agency claimed the WM must have confused the facts. The woman had to pay back 1500$ to the foreigner out of her own pocket.
Finally, the author of the article talks about new service that has recently emerged in the FSU countries. The owner of such "service providing company" is quoted. The business owner says that they help to get money from "indecent women". Cost of service is 200-1000$ per case. According to this man - usually they meet with woman's parents and tell in great detail about their daughter's misconduct, post photos of the woman on the porn sites, "meet" those women by their apartments and "talk". They do not try to figure out whether woman is guilty because they do not have time for this.   

[JR]

Sorry - I'll give a summary of the article.
Author of this article says that since recently - many agencies write letters "on behalf" of the female agency members, requesting money from foreign males. Agencies deny this practice, and suggest that scammers are doing it - after stealing the girls' photos from agency websites.
In two stories quoted by the author of the article, WMs came to Ukraine and confronted the women. One man was surprised that woman's knowledge of foreign language has not improved after he sent her  $4800 to pay for her language classes. The woman claims she never corresponded with man regarding language classes, never asked him for money, and never saw these money. Another man came to woman's apartment with a police officer demanding to return 1500$ he had sent her for photoshooting through the agency. Woman demanded explanations from the agency. The agency claimed the WM must have confused the facts. The woman had to pay back 1500$ to the foreigner out of her own pocket.
Finally, the author of the article talks about new service that has recently emerged in the FSU countries. The owner of such "service providing company" is quoted. The business owner says that they help to get money from "indecent women". Cost of service is 200-1000$ per case. According to this man - usually they meet with woman's parents and tell in great detail about their daughter's misconduct, post photos of the woman on the porn sites, "meet" those women by their apartments and "talk". They do not try to figure out whether woman is guilty because they do not have time for this.   

I think due process must be on vacation.

[mies]

i didn't get that, sorry. Could you please rephrase? 

[JR]

No one determined exactly what was going on. There was just a lot of bullying. For example: the $4800, what exactly happened to it? The man "said" he'd paid it. Did he have reciepts? She "said" she had not knowledge of it? He said, She said....

The next lady was forced to pay $1500 out of her own pocket? Where did his man send the money? My guess is to the agency. The agency should pay the money back not the lady.

So I ask where was due process? (justice) I say that in the second scenario the scammers are the man and the agency.

In the first I'd ask where is the evidence that he sent money with a specified task attached to it, ie: an improvement in language.

In battles like this tuth is usually the first casuality. I'd call it ALL BS until people started showing me evidence.

[mies]

thank you for elaborating.

on unrelated topic: have you lost your humorous predisposition recently?

[Gylden]

A few thoughts.
Just a thought, but maybe it is time for “agencies” to disappear? Agencies are by nature in a compromising situation, advocating for both sides. Maybe there is a place for some sort of commercial assistance, but IMO it should be clear who they are serving, the woman? or the man? My best guess is it would be better to serve the man, as he obviously needs help with more generic or neutral items, such as hotels/apartments, airport services, transportation advice about banking, restaurants etc. Also the man most likely is in a better financial position to pay for the service.  Thus removing any third party involvement in the relationship (less complicated, more clear between man and woman).
A couple of opinions;
1.   IMO agencies are responsible for the most about suggesting that two people who cannot speak a common language have a good chance to develop a serious, long term relationship. (IMO something that while is not impossible, it is extremely difficult and highly improbable)
2.   IMO agencies are in the perfect con environment, in the middle, with the ability to sway between the two parties, giving them control. I am sure there are good agencies; however because of their nature (middle men/women) sooner or later con people will find convenience there.  (forgive me if I am way off here, as I don’t have any actual experience with agencies. I am just looking at this situation from the outside, applying a bit of logic and views about human nature)
Just a few thoughts for consideration.

[JR]

thank you for elaborating.

on unrelated topic: have you lost your humorous predisposition recently?

Did I have one of those? OMG!!!! You mean to tell me that you weren't taking me seriously?

[mies]

Did I have one of those? OMG!!!! You mean to tell me that you weren't taking me seriously?

no - in fact i was using you for my own practical needs (busted - RWs are using WMs) - as a reference point for my own seriousness.

[mies]

A few thoughts.

i have the same impression of the role of agencies.

[Rina_G]

it'a really terrible.
and scammers role of agency - 
it this story I really sorry about simple girls trusting their honest names to agency.
И с кого бабки гребут? кого подставляют?
Позорище!

[mies]

фактически - никому нельзя верить не проверяя..
Больше всего меня "убила" информация о вышибалах - которые отбивают деньги у "нечистоплотных соотечественниц". Отрасль все более криминализируется. А как все хорошо начиналось - единение одиноких сердец и судеб.

----------
basically - no one can be trusted before verified..
Most of all I was shocked by information about the services that are "taking money back" from "indecent" women. It looks like FSU-West international dating is getting more and more criminalized. While it was starting on a very positive note of uniting lonely hearts and lives. 

[Rina_G]

Totaly agree
I don't know how it was in english
благими намерениями выложена дорога в ад
translate me please mies

[possum]

Totaly agree
I don't know how it was in english
благими намерениями выложена дорога в ад
translate me please mies

Since mies isn't here right now, I'll do the honors: the road to hell is paved with good intentions..

[Nat]

I wonder how come that man sent this innocent girls a lot of money, and then never discussed this issue with them in any letter? Or is the author of the article telling that agencies added something to the letters of their clients? But how about phone calls then? How come that when men suspected fraud, they, being civilized western people, turned to "service companies", and not to police? How come that girls didn't turn to police themselves with the request to sort out the situation and just paid the money they had never seen?
I know that there are agencies, which use details of women who are not in Internet dating, and then scam men for money. But to add information to the letter of their clients, who know them, have written agreement with them and who then can take legal action against them - hmmmmm, too many questions.

[Nat]

Translation of the http://www.segodnya.ua/news/14100274.html story

Foreign fiancés demand money from Ukrainian women

Foreigners are swindled out of their money by marriage agencies, and it is girls who pay it back.

Marriage agencies of the capital invented a new way of getting money. They write to foreign fiancés for girls and swindle them out of money under pretence of study, travelling or treatment. The girls, who don’t suspect anything, then have to report back.

“A prospective fiancé from France came to me, and he was outraged by the fact that I couldn’t speak French”, Marianna Petrova from Kiev says. “He told me he’d sent money for my study – he even showed me receipts”. It turned out, that he was “swindled out of” $4800 by Marianna.

Almost every fifth client of marriage agencies faces such situation now. Pierre decided to forget about his wasted money, but a Swiss came to Alexandra Frolova’s house with militia (police). He demanded to pay him back $1500, which he said he'd sent for her photo session. “When I came to argue with the agency, they told me that the Swiss must have confused something”, says Alexandra, who has paid the money back.

Of course marriage agencies say they have nothing to do with that. “We can’t monitor our clients’ correspondence and we can’t write for our clients, because the information is confidential”, says Irina Vlaschenko, deputy director of a marriage agency. And her colleague Eugenia Kavalerro says, that there’s a clear system of such frauds: “Agencies, which have Internet registration, are into this. Besides, there is a possibility that the agency isn’t guilty at all – scammers just take your photo from any agency’s site or from “Odnoklassniki” and write letters to foreigners. So if your photo and your details are on the Internet, you can’t be sure that nobody is corresponding, pretending to be you”.

The chief of ЦОС МВД (police) in Kiev Vladimir Polischuk says, that nobody has turned to police with pleas about marriage frauds. Some firms must be dealing with them. “There’s nothing wrong with the fact that we help to get the money from our dishonorable compatriots”, thinks the chief of one of such firms Alexey, who didn’t want to say his surname. To get the money, they use such ways: they find girl’s parents and describe in details how their kid has behaved, put her photos and details on porn sites or waylay her near her house. They charge $200-$1000 for their services. And they don’t try to figure out who is right and who is guilty. “We don’t have time for that”, says Alexey.

Yulia Ladnova

=======================================
Dear native speakers, feel free to correct my English, which is far from perfect today

[RussianWind]

In the first I'd ask where is the evidence that he sent money

Yes, nobody sends money in an envelope today. There is always a sender and a recipient in any financial document. If she didn't get money, it's not possible to prove that she did it. I don't believe these stories.

[Sculpto]

I don't believe these stories.

RW.. these specific stories have been distorted for flashy journalism.  They are designed to create scandal, not to address facts. 

However...

Put into a larger context of scamming, these situations do happen and unfortunately far too frequently.  Nevertheless, when one does truly objective research into the internet romance scam "business" it is clear that women are far more frequently victimized than men.  It just happens that in the case of the FSU and MOB biz we tend to HEAR about WM getting scammed far more often than the other way around. 

But, the stories are true "issh" and are the tip of the iceberg.  More people get scammed, than find love.

[mies]

I know that there are agencies, which use details of women who are not in Internet dating, and then scam men for money. But to add information to the letter of their clients, who know them, have written agreement with them and who then can take legal action against them - hmmmmm, too many questions.

Нат - Вы бы обратились в милицию если бы на Вас наехали "братки" и "попросили вернуть хорошему человеку" 500-1000 долларов? Справедливость справедливостью, но жизнь, так же как и сохранность лица и носа - человеку обычно ценней чем эта сумма.

It does happen that agency writes letters "on behalf" of a girl. And if a girl speaks 0 English - how do you expect her to discuss the topic of money in the phonecall??? Ok - maybe she uses dictionary and speaks minimal English. The guy asks "how are you language classes going? did you get the money" the girl thinks "what money? the classes? he wants me to know if I learn English? I should tell I do  and will improve my level" so she responds "yes i study". The guy thinks "she didn't understand what i was asking about, but good that she attends classes". The girl thinks "probably money were about something else. Maybe he is going to give me money when he comes here. Or maybe he was asking me if I have money?"   

[mies]

Yes, nobody sends money in an envelope today. There is always a sender and a recipient in any financial document. If she didn't get money, it's not possible to prove that she did it. I don't believe these stories.

again - if money are sent in lump sum to the agency - together with the agency fee for the "translation of letters" - there is document the money were sent and received by agency, but there is no document that money were given to a girl. If 3 members of agency stuff say "we gave her money", and the girl was alone there with no witnesses of her own - how is she going to prove she didn't take the money?

[RussianWind]

If 3 members of agency stuff say "we gave her money", and the girl was alone there with no witnesses of her own - how is she going to prove she didn't take the money?

Sounds like a kindergarden to me.
She doesn't need to prove that she didn't take money. They have to prove that she took money. People leave their signatures in any financial document, this is the only legal thing. No paper - no problem.

[Nat]

mies, the first thing to do for a girl in such situation is to turn to police. If she didn't take that money, there is no reason to give it back. She should have turned to police and move forward criminal charges against the foreign man (slander), marriage agency (fraud) and "bratki" (extortion), and instead of paying "service companies" the money she's never taken, pay one third of this money to police for them to take it seriously, to waylay "bratki" near her house and to deal with the con-artists.
And then I doubt that a foreigner, who knows nothing here, turned to some strange "service companies". He's more likely to tun to police, if he really has receipts and proves that at least agency received that money. The only possibility for him to get the contacts of "service companies" - if the agency itself gives him them. But then it's a prove that they are criminals, and only the police and aquaintances in the police can sort out her situation.

"Братки" обычно наезжают на людей, которые действительно взяли долг и действительно не возвращают его. А здесь просто аферисты. Если им платить, при том, что они знают, что она ничего не должна - они потом не отстанут, это же шантаж!

[Nat]

ops, it sent 2 same messages 

[mies]

Sounds like a kindergarden to me.
She doesn't need to prove that she didn't take money. They have to prove that she took money. People leave their signatures in any financial document, this is the only legal thing. No paper - no problem.

in court - sure. Outside the court ...hmm...

please understand that my arguments are rather rhetoric. I know of the stories when woman was claiming she didn't take anything, and the agency was claiming she received (money, gift, whatever). Hence - the quoted example isn't just a "fruit of my wild childish imagination"