SEXUALLY ACTIVE MAN SEARCHING FOR RW

[BillyB]

Mies, you may conclude anything you want based on the votes or non votes that you see. These polls weren't just to talk about sex as some people thought. There are a lot of double standards that I've suspected.

10 people, men and women, from the other poll out of 10 people showed up for this poll who said that no sexual relations should happen before a meaningful relationship or marriage.

For men who voted a woman is free to have a lover, only 18 out of 26 men showed up for this poll so far.

For women who voted a woman is free to have a lover only 1 out of 6 showed up for this poll so far. There are more than one woman reading this forum at any given time yet many refuse to vote in this particular poll. Votes are anonymous!

On another subject, I had dinner this Friday with a contractor from California. We didn't always talk about business. We talked about women and then RW and surprisingly he told me in 1996 he signed up with a company in California that took men to St. Petersburg and at a social the men get to meet a dozen or so women. They get to pick up to 5 to live with for a few days. One RW at a time spends a few days with the man cooking and cleaning his apartment and even sleeping with the man. He said he was worn out when he got back home. He was surprised the culture and RW over there was so accepting to living with men so quickly. I wanted to tell him the RW he slept with were probably prostitutes looking to land a Western man but I didn't want to hurt potential business with him so I kept my mouth shut.

[mies]

Billy - you are forgetting that votes are voluntary. There is no reason why you should expect that a person who read your previous thread will be reading or voting in this one. As simple as that. To draw any sort of statistically correct conclusions from this fact is not appropriate.
You have used different titles on these two polls. Maybe this is the reason why people get more attracted to one topic, and not attracted to another?

[JR]

I married a virgin, won't do that again. Nuf said....

[docetae]

Mies, you may conclude anything you want based on the votes or non votes that you see. These polls weren't just to talk about sex as some people thought. There are a lot of double standards that I've suspected.

10 people, men and women, from the other poll out of 10 people showed up for this poll who said that no sexual relations should happen before a meaningful relationship or marriage.

For men who voted a woman is free to have a lover, only 18 out of 26 men showed up for this poll so far.

For women who voted a woman is free to have a lover only 1 out of 6 showed up for this poll so far. There are more than one woman reading this forum at any given time yet many refuse to vote in this particular poll. Votes are anonymous!

I found this poll and this thread so stupid that I have voted total abstinence.... I guess I am not alone in this case...

[Boethius]

On another subject, I had dinner this Friday with a contractor from California. We didn't always talk about business. We talked about women and then RW and surprisingly he told me in 1996 he signed up with a company in California that took men to St. Petersburg and at a social the men get to meet a dozen or so women. They get to pick up to 5 to live with for a few days. One RW at a time spends a few days with the man cooking and cleaning his apartment and even sleeping with the man. He said he was worn out when he got back home. He was surprised the culture and RW over there was so accepting to living with men so quickly. I wanted to tell him the RW he slept with were probably prostitutes looking to land a Western man but I didn't want to hurt potential business with him so I kept my mouth shut.

The cooking and cleaning offends me far more than the sex.

Don't you think it is possible, given the economic situation at the time, and the fact that Russian men were dying at a higher rate than now, that these women just wanted male companionship?  Why, if a woman decides, she'd rather have casual sex than no sex, is she likely a prostitute?

[mies]

i am not sure these women knew they weren't the only ones.
from my experience interpreting for the agency - normally - we were not allowed to tell women how many others "their WM" is seeing, or that he is seeing anybody else at all. Not allowed to tell unless confronted with evidence.
And there were quite a few awkward situations - when males were trying to get the most out of their visit, and had very tight schedule. So by the time man was back in hotel lobby with his "date of the day #1" after morning stroll and breakfast - the "date #2" was already waiting there in the lobby - all beautiful, dressed up and excited. Interpreters were showing the miracles of inventiveness - trying to prevent these three from meeting. And when the two women did meet - the dramas were quite serious. Because somehow they had no idea  that man was seeing several women. I am still a bit curious - how many times on a given day poor guy had to see all the same Khreschatyk and hear stories about it.
It was also relatively easy to tell a pro-dater from a woman genuinely interested in a man. Pro-daters were usually trying to meet a man in the late afternoon, so that he can take them to dinner in the restaurant. They also knew the guy is seeing several women. So they were quite insisting on the evening date - often leaving man no other option. Women who were interested in the man and not the restaurant - usually had no idea that a restaurant follows the afternoon/evening date, and had no idea there were other women. So they were eagerly accommodating their work schedule around man's needs. He wanted to meet in the morning? - fine - she'll try to get few hours off work. Or put off her other morning plans. Sure she will be happy to show him churches and historical places. In this respect - pro-daters were always in advantageous situation - because everybody was adjusting to their needs, and they were getting most spent on them, while the good women - were pleasing the man and getting no material benefit and generally - used to fill "unwanted by pro-daters" time slots. Of course this pattern did not hold for all men, but it was quite common. From the man's pov - it probably had no difference, and it was in fact good that all the slots were filled quite efficiently.

[boaterguy]

i am not sure these women knew they weren't the only ones.
from my experience interpreting for the agency - normally - we were not allowed to tell women how many others "their" WM is seeing, or that he is seeing anybody else at all. Not allowed to tell unless confronted with evidence.
And there were quite a few awkward situations - when males were trying to get the most out of their visit, and had very tight schedule. So by the time man was back in hotel lobby with his "date of the day #1" after morning stroll and breakfast - the "date #2" was already waiting there in the lobby - all beautiful, dressed up and excited. Interpreters were showing the miracles of inventiveness - trying to prevent these three from meeting. And when the two women did meet - the dramas were quite serious. Because somehow they had no idea  that man was seeing several women. I am still a bit curious - how many times on a given day poor guy had to see all the same Khreschatyk and hear stories about it.

Now that is funny! Brings back a funny one for me when I went on a tour. This guy had been playing up to a very healthy(stout) RW. She shows up at the hotel looking for him. Meanwhile he had another lady who was staying in his room. I think this guy saw his life flash before his eyes!

[mies]

ahhahah  i remember similar stories too - at least one, and maybe more. The women were usual - not too strong, but quite hot-tempered.
This is why men were setting meetings in the hotel lobby.

[Misha]

Don't you think it is possible, given the economic situation at the time, and the fact that Russian men were dying at a higher rate than now, that these women just wanted male companionship?  Why, if a woman decides, she'd rather have casual sex than no sex, is she likely a prostitute?

I agree with Boethius. If a woman has not had any male companionship in months or years, she may be happy to be with a man if only for a few days. I don't quite understand either these seemingly mythical portrayals of retiring prostitutes seeking to marry WM.

[mies]

I agree with Boethius. If a woman has not had any male companionship in months or years, she may be happy to be with a man if only for a few days. I don't quite understand either these seemingly mythical portrayals of retiring prostitutes seeking to marry WM.

I wonder if non-existent sex-tourists can be renamed to male prostitutes...

[Misha]

I wonder if non-existent sex-tourists can be renamed to male prostitutes...

Call it a case of "buyer's remorse"  The women agreed to have sex for whatever reason, they then regret it, and to assuage their egos/conscience they call him a sex tourist  :evil: They always had the choice of saying no 

[mies]

Call it a case of "buyer's remorse"   The women agreed to have sex for whatever reason, they then regret it, and to assuage their egos/conscience they call him a sex tourist  :evil: They always had the choice of saying no  

agree.
my line of reasoning came from different direction:

Why? Because in this forum we are dealing with RW thousands of miles away and because with men, the poll needs to be worded differently. If I used the same words and it applied only to men, I guarantee we would see more bias than I would expect and some people will assume the men are sex tourists...

vs.

... They get to pick up to 5 to live with for a few days. One RW at a time spends a few days with the man cooking and cleaning his apartment and even sleeping with the man. .. I wanted to tell him the RW he slept with were probably prostitutes looking to land a Western man but I didn't want to hurt potential business with him so I kept my mouth shut.

so, either men and women in both cases are sex-tourists. Or - there is no sex tourism but there is prostitution going -both male and female.

[BillyB]

Don't you think it is possible, given the economic situation at the time, and the fact that Russian men were dying at a higher rate than now, that these women just wanted male companionship? 

I think they were prostitutes. First off RM at young ages are available and haven't died off yet so it's not that they don't exist for young RW to date. Even if the economic times were bad in 1996, most RW with dignity will not let themselves be chosen by men in a lineup at a romance tour to live with them cooking, cleaning, and sleeping with the men while it's their turn... and then repeat the process with the next man on the same tour or with different men on future tours until they are chosen for marriage.

Billy - you are forgetting that votes are voluntary.

You have used different titles on these two polls. Maybe this is the reason why people get more attracted to one topic, and not attracted to another?

Mies, yes it's voluntary for people to vote and although the two polls I created are similar, some people may not choose to vote in one or both of the polls for whatever reasons.

If you wore a coat and was walking down the street and a person asked you for a survey/poll he was conducting "What color is your shirt", you would probably answer since it's an innocent enough question. If he asked you "What color is your panties", you would probably think it's stupid and not participate in the poll.

Sometimes a poll question will make a person uncomfortable and they won't answer as evident in this poll compared to the other. Sometimes it's not the question that makes them uncomfortable, it's the answer that makes them uncomfortable. If you were wearing no panties, you may not be motivated answering in the poll asking for the color of panties you are wearing. If RW thought the idea of a man being sexually active while communicating with them is not appealing, they probably would not answer an uncomfortable question in this poll although they were comfortable participated in the other poll stating it's their right to take care of their physical needs while searching for a husband.  Still lots of ladies missing here.

[Boethius]

I think they were prostitutes. First off RM at young ages are available and haven't died off yet so it's not that they don't exist for young RW to date. Even if the economic times were bad in 1996, most RW with dignity will not let themselves be chosen by men in a lineup at a romance tour to live with them cooking, cleaning, and sleeping with the men while it's their turn... and then repeat the process with the next man on the same tour or with different men on future tours until they are chosen for marriage.

You forget that a woman over 30 in Russia (and Ukraine) at that time was "unmarriageable".  Even 25 was old maid territory.  Also, at that time, the number one profession girls aspired to was prostitute.  Times have changed in Russia.

So, if those women were prostitutes, why are you consorting with a whoremonger?  How is he any better than they were?  Is this the moral fibre of someone with whom you wish to do business?

Call it a case of "buyer's remorse"   The women agreed to have sex for whatever reason, they then regret it, and to assuage their egos/conscience they call him a sex tourist   They always had the choice of saying no  

No, I don't think that is the case.  I saw a lot of these women.  They used to come from Russia and Lithuania to Ukraine, where at that time, the men were not as destroyed by alcohol, to find a man for a week or a few weeks.  They knew what they wanted, knew how to get it, and had no illusions.  I think that is the same for many women today.  They aren't yelping about "buyer's remorse".  Where you will hear "sex tourist" is for a man who promises marriage, or gives the impression of wanting a long term relationship.  Have you looked into the eyes of a woman who desperately wants a family and, particularly, a child?  She will do anything she thinks will achieve that goal.  That is what these men take advantage of.  It is killing a hope, a part of a person's soul.  That is why they are sex tourists.  Don't confuse this with someone who just wants a warm body.

[BillyB]

So, if those women were prostitutes, why are you consorting with a whoremonger?  How is he any better than they were?  Is this the moral fibre of someone with whom you wish to do business?
 

Boethius, I find it difficult to debate you since I have to repeat things multiple times. The man thought he was on a romance tour and he will have an opportunity to marry one of these women. The tour offered him to live with the women and play house to see which one he's compatible with. He thought the openness of these women to live with men so quickly was part of their culture. My opinion was he was sold the agency hype and he bought it.

I have never paid for a prostitute but I suspect many men in this forum have. I do not judge them for their past but should we kick them out? Should we avoid any person who's done bad? You will be living in a lonely World. Maybe him doing business with me may make him a better person instead of me getting worse?

[Sculpto]

I have never paid for a prostitute

If you had would you admit it?

[mies]

If you wore a coat and was walking down the street and a person asked you for a survey/poll he was conducting "What color is your shirt", you would probably answer since it's an innocent enough question. If he asked you "What color is your panties", you would probably think it's stupid and not participate in the poll.

you are forgetting that many people stopped on a street - can lie about the color of their panties. And I would have no problem saying to a naive and blushing male college-student: "red silk with black ruffled lace. thong."  or "grass-green with bright-pink polka dots, and small kittens in the front and back - one kitten on each side" or just say "ups - i forgot to put on my panties today - thank you for reminding".. or any other bs.
A friend of mine is traditionally answering on a street polls "satanist" when he is asked what religion he follows. 

[Misha]

Where you will hear "sex tourist" is for a man who promises marriage, or gives the impression of wanting a long term relationship.  Have you looked into the eyes of a woman who desperately wants a family and, particularly, a child?  She will do anything she thinks will achieve that goal.  That is what these men take advantage of.  It is killing a hope, a part of a person's soul.  That is why they are sex tourists.  Don't confuse this with someone who just wants a warm body.

Very melodramatic, but it overlooks the fact that the women in question are not 15 years old. They have had some life experience. I find it hard to believe that women could be so naive. Don't they understand that a man sleeping with them will automatically mean that they will be married? Do they really believe that men do not try to have sex with women for the sake of having sex? Did they spend their entire lives in monasteries? Yes, dating is tough. I had my share of heartbreak as well over the years as have most men as well. What I have learned is that just because a woman has sex with you does not mean that she wants to marry you. What my experience taught me is quite simple: if you think you may regret it in the morning, don't do it.

[Boethius]

Boethius, I find it difficult to debate you since I have to repeat things multiple times. The man thought he was on a romance tour and he will have an opportunity to marry one of these women. The tour offered him to live with the women and play house to see which one he's compatible with. He thought the openness of these women to live with men so quickly was part of their culture. My opinion was he was sold the agency hype and he bought it.

I have never paid for a prostitute but I suspect many men in this forum have. I do not judge them for their past but should we kick them out? Should we avoid any person who's done bad? You will be living in a lonely World. Maybe him doing business with me may make him a better person instead of me getting worse?

Oh please, spare me.  The guy goes to a foreign country, screws a bunch of women who are strangers to him, and he believes this is a part of a culture?  And he is running a successful business?  Don't tell him about Santa Claus and the tooth fairy.

You certainly judge women who are less than honest, particularly foreign women who don't have the opportunity to travel on their own.  Why the double standard?

I have been in essence, self employed for almost 20 years.  I have worked with many successful businessmen and executives.  Some of them are not "nice" people, but that's okay, neither am I.  Yet, I have never, not once, questioned their ethics.  Someone who takes advantage of others will take advantage of you, given the opportunity.

[ECOCKS]

Mostly for the FSUW, do you think there is much pressure on some of these younger girls to marry outside the home country from their parents?

Also, what about those under 40 who have been divorced or widowed? Might they be getting a bit tired of the homegrown men after failing marriages and commonplace cheating?

[Boethius]

Very melodramatic, but it overlooks the fact that the women in question are not 15 years old. They have had some life experience. I find it hard to believe that women could be so naive. Don't they understand that a man sleeping with them will automatically mean that they will be married? Do they really believe that men do not try to have sex with women for the sake of having sex? Did they spend their entire lives in monasteries? Yes, dating is tough. I had my share of heartbreak as well over the years as have most men as well. What I have learned is that just because a woman has sex with you does not mean that she wants to marry you. What my experience taught me is quite simple: if you think you may regret it in the morning, don't do it.

You have zero empathy.  Plus, it appears, almost zero understanding of the way many females think.  You are stuck on this issue of naivety.  This has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with life experience or being naive.  It has to do with a woman using everything she can throw at a man in hopes of "landing" him.  

If a man tells a woman he is interested and is looking for a wife, and she likes him, chances are she may sleep with him.  If he lied to her in order to loosen her up, so to speak, yes, in many cases, he is sex tourist.  Because he wasn't interested in her as a person.  These women get a limited chance to "impress" the man who has come to visit him.  And how many times on this very site have you read men brag about bedding woman after woman?  Often, this is about power, not love.  

I have no problem with people having casual sex if that is what they want, and if that is understood at the outset.  It really is nobody's business but the people involved.  If a man said "Look, I spent thousands of dollars to get a chance to fulfill the fantasy that beautiful women want me.  I am not interested in marriage." or even "I am not interested in you as wife material today.  I may or may not be interested two days/a week/etc. from now.  I likely won't know while I am here.  But in the interim, let's have sex." that is one thing.  But that is not what happens.  What happens is deceptive.  It is the playing with feelings and manipulation of the desperation, the desire for a family, that I object to.

You don't get it, and I suspect, and never will.

[GQBlues]

"red silk with black ruffled lace. thong." 

mies-

You'll have to forgive me. But is that a misnomer? Ruffled, laced thong?!? That sounds so uncomfortable it's almost painful. 

[Boethius]

Mostly for the FSUW, do you think there is much pressure on some of these younger girls to marry outside the home country from their parents?

Also, what about those under 40 who have been divorced or widowed? Might they be getting a bit tired of the homegrown men after failing marriages and commonplace cheating?

Ed, I don't know if this was addressed to me, but I'll give you my perspective in Ukraine.  My husband lived in Russia and said it was the same there.  

During Soviet times, my husband was besieged by the state.  After I was thrown out of the country, he had lots of unpleasant experiences at work.  A meeting was called, with all coworkers present, where he was thrown out of the trade union for not being part of the "working class".  There was a woman who worked in the administrative office who was particularly vicious to him (most of the women liked him, because he wore clean clothes and didn't drink).  She would practically spit at him each time, always tell him her husband was an officer, that he was scum, and that he was a traitor for marrying a foreigner.  Always along those lines, always a denigration of his foreign marriage.

Fast forward many, many years.  The USSR collapses.  My husband finally has his exit visa.  He goes to work and says his is leaving in 4 days.  His boss nearly has a heart attack, because my husband was the only person in his group who wasn't a drunkard, and hence, worked.  He goes to collect his final paycheque.  The officer's wife smiles sweetly at him, as if nothing happened, and says "Oh, I hope my daughter marries a foreigner."

The women behind her rolled their eyes.  It was very common, particularly when life didn't immediately become champagne and roses, for people to find an escape.  For women, that meant a foreign husband.  As the Russian economy stabilized, that was no longer the case in Russia - a foreign man wasn't an escape from poverty.  I know for a fact it is still the case in Ukraine.

Over 40 women don't have too many options in Ukraine today (I won't speak for Russia) because most men can find younger women and there is a shortage of men.  But certainly, there are many over 40 women who marry Ukrainian men.

[Misha]

It has to do with using everything a woman can throw at a man in hopes of "landing" him.

Yes, and the bitterness comes when she does not "land" him. It is comparable to the bitterness felt by men who spend a lot of money to "land" a woman and she turns him down. It is not nice when it happens, but that is life.    

If a man tells a woman he is interested and is looking for a wife, and she likes him, chances are she may sleep with him.  If he was lying to her, yes, he was a sex tourist.  It is about power, not love.

She has the power to say no. Women can have sex for reasons other than finding a husband. My advice to women would be quite simple: if you want to have sex, and want to have sex with man X and won't regret it in the morning, then do it. If you do not want to have sex and will have sex with him in the hopes that he will marry you, then be ready to accept the fact that he may not marry you and he may be lying to you. This would apply to both local men and foreign men. Yes, it is abhorrent that some men lie to have women sleep with them, but women must also accept partial responsibility as well for their actions.     

You don't get it, and never will, because you are a one way thinker.

I for one believe that women in Russia and elsewhere are not such frail creatures that must be protected from themselves. They are endowed with reason and good sense and are perfectly capable of understanding that men (and women) can lie. I just don't understand the need to portray the women of Ukraine or Russia or elsewhere in the FSU as such weak, powerless beings, desperate and willing to do anything to leave their countries. Are there men that are cads? Yes, and some are foreigners, call them sex tourists if you want. Nonetheless, the best remedy against such men is simply for women to stop having sex with them.

[Boethius]

Yes, and the bitterness comes when she does not "land" him. It is comparable to the bitterness felt by men who spend a lot of money to "land" a woman and she turns him down. It is not nice when it happens, but that is life.    

It is not bitterness.  It is about being lied to.  Now, I am not saying that no woman cries "sex tourist" unjustly, but I think that is the exception, rather than the rule.

She has the power to say no. Women can have sex for reasons other than finding a husband. My advice to women would be quite simple: if you want to have sex, and want to have sex with man X and won't regret it in the morning, then do it. If you do not want to have sex and will have sex with him in the hopes that he will marry you, then be ready to accept the fact that he may not marry you and he may be lying to you. This would apply to both local men and foreign men. Yes, it is abhorrent that some men lie to have women sleep with them, but women must also accept partial responsibility as well for their actions. 

    

It is not about not accepting responsibility for their actions.  It is about opening your heart and trusting someone who is unworthy.  Have you never seen a person destroyed by this?  Some people never recover. 

I for one believe that women in Russia and elsewhere are not such frail creatures that must be protected from themselves. They are endowed with reason and good sense and are perfectly capable of understanding that men (and women) can lie. I just don't understand the need to portray the women of Ukraine or Russia or elsewhere in the FSU as such weak, powerless beings, desperate and willing to do anything to leave their countries. Are there men that are cads? Yes, and some are foreigners, call them sex tourists if you want. Nonetheless, the best remedy against such men is simply for women to stop having sex with them.

But if you really see the country you are in, and understand how people there really live, you will see the imbalance.  For in fact, it does exist.  It is not about being weak or viewing them as frail.  It is about common human decency.