SEXUALLY ACTIVE MAN SEARCHING FOR RW

[Misha]

It is not bitterness.  It is about being lied to.  Now, I am not saying that no woman cries "sex tourist" unjustly, but I think that is the exception, rather than the rule. 

Yes, it is not nice when someone lies to you, but it is not a rare event. Most people have had people lie to them many time over the course of their lives.     

It is not about not accepting responsibility for their actions.  It is about opening your heart and trusting someone who is unworthy.  Have you never seen a person destroyed by this?  Some people never recover.

Sure, if it was a long-term relationship lasting many years, people will quite often have a very difficult recovery lasting years. I can't really say that I have ever met anybody, however, who was "destroyed" over being disappointed in a short-term relationship. Yes, it painful, but people invariably move on pretty quickly. What exactly are your observations? How many women have you met destroyed as you describe?  

But if you really see the country you are in, and understand how people there really live, you will see the imbalance.  For in fact, it does exist.  It is not about being weak or viewing them as frail.  It is about common human decency.

I have been to Russia many, many times over 15 years. I have never seen the desperation you describe. Women were never throwing themselves at foreigners desperate to leave Russia, even in the mid-1990's when the economy was at its worst. Yes, many were looking for good husbands, but I never observed the "imbalance" you describe. Perhaps it is different in Ukraine.

[Boethius]

Yes, it is not nice when someone lies to you, but it is not a rare event. Most people have had people lie to them many time over the course of their lives.    

Most people are working from positions of equality.  Once you bring inequality into the equation, it is a different dynamic.

Sure, if it was a long-term relationship lasting many years, people will quite often have a very difficult recovery lasting years. I can't really say that I have ever met anybody, however, who was "destroyed" over being disappointed in a short-term relationship. Yes, it painful, but people invariably move on pretty quickly. What exactly are your observations? How many women have you met destroyed as you describe?  

See above.  It is not the act of sleeping with someone that is the destroying event.  It is the destruction of a dream, and knowing you've been manipulated.  It is something that hits to the depths of the core of a person's being.  You can't understand this no matter how many times I explain this, because you haven't looked into the eyes of these people.  Plus, like some others here, I think you are judgmental and see the world in a moral/immoral or good/bad paradigm. 

I haven't seen this only in women, BTW.

I have been to Russia many, many times over 15 years. I have never seen the desperation you describe. Women were never throwing themselves at foreigners desperate to leave Russia, even in the mid-1990's when the economy was at its worst. Yes, many were looking for good husbands, but I never observed the "imbalance" you describe. Perhaps it is different in Ukraine.

And how would you see this?  Were you dating through Western agencies?  Sleeping with women and dumping them?  Talking with women who had slept with foreigners and were dumped?

Your observations are not the same as those of Russians I know who have emigrated here, but then, I ask.  
  

[Misha]

You can't understand this no matter how many times I explain this, because you haven't looked into the eyes of these people.  

Have you ever looked into the eyes of "these people"? You are a Canadian lawyer whose husband is Ukrainian. What exactly is your experience with looking into the eyes of women traumatized by sex tourists?

Plus, like some others here, I think you are judgmental and see the world in a moral/immoral or good/bad paradigm.

No, I just don't see the need to dramatize it to such an extent. Do people get hurt when dating whether it is with local men or women or with men and women from another region or country? Yes. Do people get their dreams "shattered" when the man or woman they are dating turns out to be less than noble? Yes, and that is true if the person you are dating is from your own "dvor" or from another continent. Dating and relationships always carries a risk and most people past the age of 12 understand this quite well. Most people learn from these experiences and move on.  

And how would you see this?  Were you dating through Western agencies?  Sleeping with women and dumping them?  Talking with women who had slept with foreigners and were dumped?

Was I dating through Western agencies? No, I women that I met via singles.ru. My experience is based on dozens of women that I had and have as friends in Russia, women that I never slept with, women who were living their daily lives the best they could. These were all decent women working extremely hard to provide for themselves and their families. Sure, life was difficult at times, but they were far from desperate.

Like most people that I know, they were looking for love, but would not have thrown themselves at any man. Most were heartbroken at some point in their lives, yet they all showed great courage and fortitude and moved on, even if some lost everything when married to a local man. In other words, I never did encounter women who were as defenseless and desperate as you portray.

Even the women that I dated, most having met for a coffee or lunch, I can't say that any were throwing themselves at me. Just regular dates, not that much different from your usual coffee date in Canada, and by the end of the date we would say goodbye and move on. As in Canada, it was the women that I was dating who would usually decide whether or not to pursue the relationship farther. There were a couple of women that I fell for who decided that I was not the type of man they wanted or that they did not want to leave Russia. Fair enough. Again, I was not dating desperate women, and I understood that not every woman that I met would fall in love with me.

I am not saying that the women you describe don't exist, but I would counter that they are far from the norm.     

Your observations are not the same as those of Russians I know who have emigrated here, but then, I ask.

Of course, because it is based on my experience over 15 years with women who did not emigrate and had no real interest in emigrating. Though, of course, I have met many Russian women in Canada who immigrated here, most don't fit your portrayal of desperate women, powerless and defenseless. 

[Blues Fairy]

Once you bring inequality into the equation, it is a different dynamic.

It is not the act of sleeping with someone that is the destroying event.  It is the destruction of a dream, and knowing you've been manipulated.  

Are you saying that in a situation of equality, these same women would deal with someone lying to them in an adequate grown-up way and move on, but as soon as they meet someone unequal (richer/more advantageous?) they suddenly become naïve Cinderellas with high and fragile dreams, pinning all their hopes on a prince Charming?  

[Misha]

Are you saying that in a situation of equality, these same women would deal with someone lying to them in an adequate grown-up way and move on, but as soon as they meet someone unequal (richer/more advantageous?) they suddenly become naïve Cinderellas with high and fragile dreams, pinning all their hopes on a prince Charming?  

Very well said. Also, it is not as if inequalities don't exist within Russian society (or Ukrainian for that matter). Women have to deal with men that are richer and more powerful on a daily basis whether it is when studying or working.

Also, the concept that having sex with a man will not automatically lead to marriage should be quite well-known to Russian-speakers as it is the basic plot of one of the Soviet Union's best known and loved films: "Moscow Does not Believe in Tears (Москва слезам не верит)." This movie involves women trying to "land" powerful men and gain a Moscow propiska. The heroin in this movie is seduced, becomes pregnant, yet the father of her future baby does not want to marry her.   

[Mars]

I have no problem with people having casual sex if that is what they want, and if that is understood at the outset.

Ah, the silliness of full disclosure lives on.

[BC]

Ah, the silliness of full disclosure lives on.

As it pertains to local dating or just f**king around, yes, silliness..

In the context of flying halfway around the world to meet or *meat* women, disclosure of intent would be appropriate IMHO.

Getting on a plane does seem to imply a bit more than a casual date for sex.

[Misha]

In the context of flying halfway around the world to meet or *meat* women, disclosure of intent would be appropriate IMHO.

Nah. No longer necessary. Every babushka between Kiev and Vladivostok has heard of the dangers of western "sex tourists" and warned her daughters and granddaughters  You would be hard pressed to find any woman on either side of the Urals who hasn't heard from someone the dangers of dating sex tourists foreigners and how should they be successful in immigrating they will become sex slaves overseas 

[Mars]

As it pertains to local dating or just f**king around, yes, silliness..

In the context of flying halfway around the world to meet or *meat* women, disclosure of intent would be appropriate IMHO.

Getting on a plane does seem to imply a bit more than a casual date for sex.

BC, would you please read my separate thread  on Full Disclosure and make some comments there.  Please be specific where you think I have made some errors in logic, etc.  And state a conclusion as to whether you think a man would ever have a chance of dating any woman if he followed full disclosure.  Please be honest and serious in your response as opposed to frivolous and unrealistic.  Thanks.

[Boethius]

Are you saying that in a situation of equality, these same women would deal with someone lying to them in an adequate grown-up way and move on, but as soon as they meet someone unequal (richer/more advantageous?) they suddenly become naïve Cinderellas with high and fragile dreams, pinning all their hopes on a prince Charming?  

The point is they'd have more choices if the parties were equals.

There are hundreds of men on the prowl in Ibiza, Ios, Barcelona, Amsterdam, Berlin, Prague, Vilnius, and even the ferry between Stockholm and Helsinki.  Yet no one complains about "sex tourists".  Is there something that makes FSU more prone to lying about sex tourists than their Western counterparts?  Are they more delicate?  Or is it that they don't have the same options as their female Western counterparts?

[Boethius]

Ah, the silliness of full disclosure lives on.

Is it any less silliness than chasing the dream of a woman half a world away, who must be a size six or less, always sexually ready willing and wet, and also able to have a command of English sufficient to discuss topics as varied as Schopenhauer, Shakespeare's use of unheard prayer, or the destruction of the Zaporizhian Sich?

[Blues Fairy]

Is there something that makes FSU more prone to lying about sex tourists than their Western counterparts?  Are they more delicate?  Or is it that they don't have the same options as their female Western counterparts?

The Entitlement Attitude, perhaps?  Since they are poor FSU girls, they are entitled to more responsible treatment by the rich Western men than their Western counterparts? 

The famous Saint-Exupery quote "You are responsible, forever, for what you have tamed" is very popular among the Russians.  A very tricky and treacherous principle.  Anyone can pretend to be "tamed" by you and hence you are forever responsible for them, whether you like it or not.   

[OlgaH]

The famous Saint-Exupery quote "You are responsible, forever, for what you have tamed" is very popular among the Russians.  A very tricky and treacherous principle.  Anyone can pretend to be "tamed" by you and hence you are forever responsible for them, whether you like it or not.    

Yes, It is a quote from The Little Prince by Antoine de Saint-Exupéry.

SINCE its publication in 1943, The Little Prince has sold more than 80 million copies worldwide.

Outwardly a children's book, it makes several profound points about life and humankind. In it, Saint-Exupéry tells of being stranded in the Sahara Desert – which occurred to him on a pioneering flight – where he meets a young extraterrestrial prince.

In their talks, the author reveals his own views about simple truths and the follies of mankind.
http://news.scotsman.com/world/39I-shot-French-literary-hero.3883493.jp

I think the quote you have gave is unsuitable in your case. Because the quote is a elementary explanation of a human love and responsibility: why the Little Prince feels responsible for his Rose the flower and why the flower is so important and special for him. When you tames somebody that somebody tames you, when you love somebody somebody that somebody becomes important and special for you...

"You are not at all like my rose," he said. "As yet you are nothing. No one has tamed you, and you have tamed no one. You are like my fox when I first knew him. He was only a fox like a hundred thousand other foxes. But I have made him my friend, and now he is unique in all the world."

And the roses were very much embarassed.

"You are beautiful, but you are empty," he went on. "One could not die for you. To be sure, an ordinary passerby would think that my rose looked just like you--the rose that belongs to me. But in herself alone she is more important than all the hundreds of you other roses: because it is she that I have watered; because it is she that I have put under the glass globe; because it is she that I have sheltered behind the screen; because it is for her that I have killed the caterpillars (except the two or three that we saved to become butterflies); because it is she that I have listened to, when she grumbled, or boasted, or ever sometimes when she said nothing. Because she is my rose.

BTW When my son brought home his first pet, a little kitty he found in the street, I exactly reminded him the quote ""You become responsible, forever, for what you have tamed"
 

[Boethius]

I don't think it is entitlement, BF.  But, you bring up a good point.  I will ponder it.

[Misha]

Is there something that makes FSU more prone to lying about sex tourists than their Western counterparts? 

I would not say that they are more prone to lying about sex tourists, rather the term "sex tourism" in Russia has connotations that are not found in English. Usually when speaking of sex tourism in English-language media, it is referring to men going overseas to have sex with minors or with prostitutes. It is not generally used to describe consensual sex between adults. However, the exception seems to be female sex tourism: hundreds of thousands of women from North America and Europe going to exotic locations in the hopes of being "romanced" and the popular media has dubbed this phenomenon female sex tourism.


 

[Misha]

Is it any less silliness than chasing the dream of a woman half a world away...

I won't comment about the rest of the passage, but I presume that it was acceptable for you to marry a man from half a world away 

[Boethius]

You missed the point.  That "list" is bound to result in disappointment and is something I'd expect from a teenaged boy rather than an emotionally mature male (no offence intended).

As for your post, I was only living in the country, spoke the language, grew up in the culture, and as a teen, wasn't looking for a husband.

Life happens.

[wiz]

I would not say that they are more prone to lying about sex tourists, rather the term "sex tourism" in Russia has connotations that are not found in English. Usually when speaking of sex tourism in English-language media, it is referring to men going overseas to have sex with minors or with prostitutes. It is not generally used to describe consensual sex between adults.

A man who visits either Ukraine or Russia to meet and date 3 or more women, usually is branded, by them and some other people, as a "sex tourist", if their dating was not succesfull and makes no differnce in their view if he had sex with any of them or not!

Because of the number of women that he met.... he is just labeled "Sex Tourist".

If sex has taken place and the meeting was unsuccesful despite the fact that both were two concenting adults the blame still lies with him, in their view and under no circumstances they will accept responsibility for their own actions!

[BC]

If sex has taken place and the meeting was unsuccesful despite the fact that both were two concenting adults the blame still lies with him, in their view and under no circumstances they will accept responsibility for their own actions!

Of course not!! 

Good point wiz

On one side of the planet one is listed as a MOB hunter, other side a Sex Tourist.  Difficult to sway public perceptions based on the overall picture 'on the ground'.

[Misha]

You missed the point.  That "list" is bound to result in disappointment and is something I'd expect from a teenaged boy rather than an emotionally mature male (no offence intended).

What "list" exactly are you referring to? I see when logic does not suffice, one must resort to ad hominem attacks  The fact of the matter is that dating of any sort always leads to some disappointment. I fell in love with women, and they did not fall for me. I was hurt, but got over it and moved on. Such is life. I accept heartbreak as integral to dating, and I did not wallow in self-pity.

As for your post, I was only living in the country, spoke the language, grew up in the culture, and as a teen, wasn't looking for a husband.

Yet, you chose to marry a man from overseas. Clearly, you had to go overseas to find something that you did not find at home. You may consider your motives purer and more noble, but in the end what you did is no different from many of the men here. Many also had cultural ties to the FSU, many also worked in the FSU, many also learned the language... There was certainly a power imbalance as well in your case. The point that I am trying to make is simple: you found happiness overseas, and I am happy for you. But, you should also accept the fact that some men also happened to find the same love and happiness overseas and some women from Russia happened to find happiness with men from overseas no matter how they found it. They have as much a right to that happiness as anybody else. 

My objection is the way in which you seem to infantilize women from the FSU, making them passive target at the mercy of men from overseas who will fall for any man wearing a foreign passport, sleep with him without the option of saying no, and then be heartbroken for the rest of their lives should he happen not to marry her. Your vision of women from the FSU does not fit the women that I have known: friends, family and yes the women that I dated (though I would be the first to admit that I did not date many women). The women that I have known were not as desperate as you portrayed, were much stronger, more mature, were rational, understood the risks of dating and were able to deal with disappointment.

A passage from Thomas Friedman's op-ed summarizes well the way in which individuals can be infantilized by well-meaning outsiders and can be thus bereft of all responsibility for their actions:

A corrosive mind-set has taken hold since 9/11. It says that Arabs and Muslims are only objects, never responsible for anything in their world, and we are the only subjects, responsible for everything that happens in their world. We infantilize them.

Arab and Muslims are not just objects. They are subjects. They aspire to, are able to and must be challenged to take responsibility for their world.

As Wiz summarizes quite well, women in the FSU are not solely objects, they are also subjects and they must also take some responsibility for their actions and the consequences of those actions. Sure, right after the collapse of the Soviet Union there was perhaps a bit of naivete concerning foreigners, but now given all the media publicity in Russia about the dangers of sex tourists, sex slavery and how nasty foreigners are in general, whatever illusions women may have had, is long gone.

[OlgaH]

As Wiz summarizes quite well, women in the FSU are not solely objects, they are also subjects and they must also take some responsibility for their actions and the consequences of those actions.

Misha I absolutely agree with you. But women who lie, use sex and other deceptive games in order to "catch" a man or for other their selfish purposes most likely will not take any responsibility.  Other women especially who step on the same rake twice and more times most likely will not take any responsibility due to their chronic immaturity, naïvety, infantilism or simply silliness or whatever.   

[Blues Fairy]

I think the quote you have gave is unsuitable in your case. Because the quote is a elementary explanation of a human love and responsibility:

BTW When my son brought home his first pet, a little kitty he found in the street, I exactly reminded him the quote ""You become responsible, forever, for what you have tamed"

Yeah, my first boyfriend used this quote on me too when I announced I was leaving him.  See a difference between a tiny kitten and a grown 20-year-old man?  Was ''elementary human love and responsibility" an appropriate interpretation of the Exupery quote in this case?

[Misha]

Misha I absolutely agree with you. But women who lie, use sex and other deceptive games in order to "catch" a man or for other their selfish purposes most likely will not take any responsibility.  Other women especially who step on the same rake twice and more times most likely will not take any responsibility due to their chronic immaturity, naïvety, infantilism or simply silliness or whatever.   

 

My thoughts exactly.

[BC]

My thoughts exactly.

So in the end, here we lie, all the good RU women taken.. relegated to picking through a bunch of chronically immature, naive, infantile, silly women.

Isn't that what all these WM are trying to get away from?

I'm confused...

 

[Misha]

So in the end, here we lie, all the good RU women taken.. relegated to picking through a bunch of chronically immature, naive, infantile, silly women.

Isn't that what all these WM are trying to get away from?

I'm confused...

 

Nah, they will be found by those men who will eventually come to the forum whining about pro-daters and GCG's