SEXUALLY ACTIVE MAN SEARCHING FOR RW

[Dave13]

Misha, I've also noticed the difference between the public and private persona. But my wife is very poilite to people and she does say thank you. Of course us married guys are just saying this because were afraid, it couldn't be true, as some of the so-called experts post.

[KenC]

Gee Dave,
I just reread the thread and did not notice anyone proclaiming themself an expert anywhere.  Can you point it out to me?  What I did see, was people posting about their different experiences, which led to their opinions.
KenC

[Mars]

Imagine, if you will, a man posting here saying:  My RW wife or fiance never says thank you, never says sorry, never admits she is wrong, is impolite to me and others, etc.

It defies common nature to admit those things (even to one self) when they are true.  One cannot admit such to self or voice to others, even when true, and still feel comfortable in the relationship.

The most that can be hoped is that the man will remain silent, as opposed to embarrassing himself.

Only after the divorce, will the truth be told.

[Ade]

Imagine, if you will, a man posting here saying:  My RW wife or fiance never says thank you, never says sorry, never admits she is wrong, is impolite to me and others, etc.

It defies common nature to admit those things (even to one self) when they are true.  One cannot admit such to self or voice to others, even when true, and still feel comfortable in the relationship.

The most that can be hoped is that the man will remain silent, as opposed to embarrassing himself.

Only after the divorce, will the truth be told.

As strange as it may seem, there are real men here that have no problem admitting the truth, positive and negative, to themselves and to others. Maybe it's just your "common nature" that you're thinking of?

[GQBlues]

Threads like this fascinates me to no end. A bunch of people sharing their respective life's realities and an argument always kicks in.

So some people's life is constantly shrouded with rude folks for whatever reason, while others do not. Why is that not an acceptable universal fact?

Just like it's easy for other people to get dates, while for some it's almost impossible. Where's the argument?

[Ade]

Threads like this fascinates me to no end. A bunch of people sharing their respective life's realities and an argument always kicks in.

So some people's life is constantly shrouded with rude folks for whatever reason, while others do not. Why is that not an acceptable universal fact?

Just like it's easy for other people to get dates, while for some it's almost impossible. Where's the argument?

Birds of a feather...

[wiz]

Like Mars

I have had zero experience with marriage agencies and tour operators and have met zero women through those routes but I met a few through independent routes and Of course I never claim to be an expert of Russian women or for anything else for that matter.

Expressing my views of my experiences it doesn’t mean that ALL the Russian/Ukrainian women don’t say thank you, don’t apologise and never say sorry but I think certain people are afraid to openly express their views and on this matter I side with Mars comments!

Imagine, if you will, a man posting here saying:  My RW wife or fiancé never says thank you, never says sorry, never admits she is wrong, is impolite to me and others, etc.

It defies common nature to admit those things (even to one self) when they are true.  One cannot admit such to self or voice to others, even when true, and still feel comfortable in the relationship.

The most that can be hoped is that the man will remain silent, as opposed to embarrassing himself.

Only after the divorce, will the truth be told

PS: My wife does say “please” and “thank you”, “admit mistakes” and say “sorry” and because of those traits of hers we are now married!

GABlues

Expressing our views doesn't necessary means we have to start an argument!

[KenC]

Threads like this fascinates me to no end. A bunch of people sharing their respective life's realities and an argument always kicks in.

So some people's life is constantly shrouded with rude folks for whatever reason, while others do not. Why is that not an acceptable universal fact?

Just like it's easy for other people to get dates, while for some it's almost impossible. Where's the argument?

GQ,
My point exactly.

My interaction  with Eastern Europeans has been numerous over the last 11 years.  Even my son now lives with a Bulgarian girl.  IMO they are more blunt, less apologetic and tend to be more stubborn than the average American.  There are good and bad sides to these traits too.  This doesn't mean that they are any less friendly or enjoyable at times too.  It also does not mean that I have not come across an occasional sweetheart in the bunch either.  Please note, I did not call myself an expert nor did I base my opinion on a "wrong choice" of mates and a very small sample of these people were associated with agencies.
KenC

[wiz]

IMO they are more blunt, less apologetic and tend to be more stubborn than the average American.  There are good and bad sides to these traits too.  This doesn't mean that they are any less friendly or enjoyable at times too. 
KenC

We must not forget that English language is not their first language for Eastern Europeans and of course they understand and express themselves ..... as is, ......... which appears to be blunt. They don't have the salesman's vocabulary neither know or understand the nuances of the English language, which takes many many years for a foreigner to learn and understand. I agree also with the rest of your comments.

[groovlstk]

Imagine, if you will, a man posting here saying:  My RW wife or fiance never says thank you, never says sorry, never admits she is wrong, is impolite to me and others, etc.

It defies common nature to admit those things (even to one self) when they are true.  One cannot admit such to self or voice to others, even when true, and still feel comfortable in the relationship.

The most that can be hoped is that the man will remain silent, as opposed to embarrassing himself.

Only after the divorce, will the truth be told.

LOL Mars, in this and other threads you discount any opinions that don't jibe with your notions about rude and amoral Russian people, here going so far as to say those who are married to RW are lying about their experiences simply to cover up bad marriages.

Just who is in denial, here? 

[groovlstk]

groovistk,
Interesting that you chastise those who generalise about RW's traits and yet it is OK for you to generalise about people involved with agencies?
Hmmm?
KenC

Touche Ken, but I wasn't commenting on the "people" who use marriage agencies, unless you were to include the actual owners and associates who make a living by fleecing foolish Westerners.

Let me ask you this: let's say there are two groups of hypothetical tourists, one group wants to visit St. Petersburg and spend a few days in the Hermitage, see the Winter Palace, etc. The other group is wife-hunting (or let's just say "romance-hunting" to include guys who are testing the waters) and will stay in apartments they rented through a marriage agency, work through a translator/guide who works for the agency, and generally the only women the group talks to who are under 40 are clients of the agency.

Each group will have vastly different experiences and opinions about Russian people, and both will be accurate in so far as their opinions are based directly on their individual experiences.

[KenC]

groov,
While I do see your point that some guys can get a twisted view of people from the fsu if their only contact is with agency connections, I still believe this is an exaggeration.

I do not accept that all agencies and people associated with them are bad.
I met and spoke with 2 of the owners and the 2 office managers of the agency I used.  All were decent, honest and forthright people.  While the women listed at the agency were a mixed bag, I would even go with the 70% "agenda" girls Lena spoke of to me.  (BTW, comparing then to now, I am of the opinion this percentage has actually changed for the BETTER now.  My reasoning is that "Internet dating" or "Internet introductions" are a more acceptable action today than before.  And the increase of direct contact too)

While the majority of the people I was in contact with were associated with the agency, there was plenty of interaction with "regular" people too  Maybe I was the exception, but my conversations were in no way limited to just agency people.

If anything, the people associated with agencies would be more motivated to be polite, thoughtful and accommodating (kiss butt)
Self explanatory.
KenC

[Jooky]

Jooky, when 40 men, each of whom has met 10 RW say basically the same thing about the RW re the variables you note above; does that not say something?

I does say something. I think it says a lot, not about Russian women, but about Russian women who seek foreign husbands. I've heard thank you and you're welcome countless times. Pozhaluista is very common. I've heard sorry. I don't find Russians to be generally rude. The Russian language has a built in politeness which is almost always used in public, but I think a lot of people miss that.. I haven't experienced that Russians are any more or less stubborn and argumentative than Americans. I'd say culturally they are less argumentative than Spaniards, that's for sure.

I agree with the comment about the public and private persona, though I've noticed a change in this over the past eight years. Cars are even stopping for pedestrians these days. 

In Novosibirsk store clerks have repeatedly gone out of their way to help me find computer parts or other hardware that I needed. Just a few weeks ago, one clerk walked me two blocks to a competing store to help me find exactly what I was looking for. How's that for Russian rudeness?

I am of the opinion this percentage has actually changed for the BETTER now.  My reasoning is that "Internet dating" or "Internet introductions" are a more acceptable action today than before.

There’s a flaw in that reasoning. Internet dating is more acceptable, yes. Actively seeking a foreign husband through a marriage agency is far less acceptable. The bridal industry has gotten a lot of bad press.

[KenC]

I does say something. I think it says a lot, not about Russian women, but about Russian women who seek foreign husbands. I've heard thank you and you're welcome countless times. Pozhaluista is very common. I've heard sorry. I don't find Russians to be generally rude. The Russian language has a built in politeness which is almost always used in public, but I think a lot of people miss that.. I haven't experienced that Russians are any more or less stubborn and argumentative than Americans. I'd say culturally they are less argumentative than Spaniards, that's for sure.

I agree with the comment about the public and private persona, though I've noticed a change in this over the past eight years. Cars are even stopping for pedestrians these days. 

In Novosibirsk store clerks have repeatedly gone out of their way to help me find computer parts or other hardware that I needed. Just a few weeks ago, one clerk walked me two blocks to a competing store to help me find exactly what I was looking for. How's that for Russian rudeness?

I remember my ex compaining about the lack of service in the stores after her last trip home.  She remarked that she had become too used to the service offered in stores here.  Different strokes.

There’s a flaw in that reasoning. Internet dating is more acceptable, yes. Actively seeking a foreign husband through a marriage agency is far less acceptable. The bridal industry has gotten a lot of bad press.

No flaw in the message as I was making the point that there is an increased number of fsuw that do not use agencies at all with their increased Internet accessibility.  The flaw was that it was posted within a discussion about agencies.  But even within some agencies, they are more "at arms length" today than before.  Take Elena's Models for example.  They are really a nonfactor in communicating directly with the women on their site.  I do not see where they have much control over anything but the introduction.
KenC

[Misha]

Imagine, if you will, a man posting here saying:  My RW wife or fiance never says thank you, never says sorry, never admits she is wrong, is impolite to me and others, etc.

Believe what you will, but remind me again why you are looking for wife from the FSU if you believe it is their nature to be rude, unapologetic, etc...

The most that can be hoped is that the man will remain silent, as opposed to embarrassing himself.

Ah, so we should rely on those who are "making contacts" as they know the truth better than to those who are married to Russians or have dozens (or more) Russian friends, family, acquaintances....

Only after the divorce, will the truth be told.

Why? Some of us are happily married and are perfectly capable of seeing the truth for what it is without deluding ourselves. I will be the first to admit that my wife is not angel, but she is far from generalization you are proffering.

[OlgaH]

Believe what you will, but remind me again why you are looking for wife from the FSU if you believe it is their nature to be rude, unapologetic, etc...

Misha, I think Mars already answered... Responsibility?   

We, who had no part in causing their previous problems, are now somehow responsible for fixing it all up.

[wiz]

I remember my ex compaining about the lack of service in the stores after her last trip home.  She remarked that she had become too used to the service offered in stores here.  Different strokes.

KenC

And that is also my experience in general, regarding service there.

But the resident members obviously are of a different opinion but then probably or certaintly they move in different circles than us and their Dollars spending comes handy and gets them better service then us mortals.

What was the Original question? 

[Jumper]

Imagine, if you will, a man posting here saying:  My RW wife or fiance never says thank you, never says sorry, never admits she is wrong, is impolite to me and others, etc.

It defies common nature to admit those things (even to one self) when they are true.  One cannot admit such to self or voice to others, even when true, and still feel comfortable in the relationship.

The most that can be hoped is that the man will remain silent, as opposed to embarrassing himself.

Only after the divorce, will the truth be told.

seems like a fishing cast with  stink bait ,,but i'll bite.

I'm recently divorced,.
my ex was over today to visit my son.
we went over some  minor topics, (not really divorce related.)
during the course of the conversation,
she said she was sorry(about some items discussed)
sincerely thanked me (about some other stuff )
 and twice admitted she was wrong!!  and that i was indeed correct!
(I think it was some local property tax law she had recently strenuously debated with me about lol)
we even  joked about it as i asked her if she could repeat "aj you were right" ,
but i think that has more of a "past history" husband /wife thing , and little to do with nationality.

Amazingly in the same conversation ,i'm sure i apologized at some point for something,
i know for sure that i genuinely thanked her for a few things, and even admitted she was right on some stuff as well.
go figure..?

I think the nature of the forum is to generalize.
In my experience:  RW can be determined and stubborn,(cant we all,just look at the forum posting styles?lol ) ,
but certainly they say the normal words when appropriate, like  "i'm sorry ,thank you, and "you were right"
They generally are quite polite (but more straight to the point ,and may be blunt)

*Directness* can be taken as impoliteness,but it is generally not intended without tact,
its intent is merely being honest and direct,that can be frustrating at moments for someone not
accustomed to it.. but in general is refreshing.
If it isnt , then RW may not be for you..:lol:

but certainly most RW know the difference  between being very direct ,
verses being crude or entirely without tact.
It's  a different culture, not  a different planet.

[wiz]

I think the nature of the forum is to generalize.

In my experience:  RW can be determined and stubborn,(cant we all,just look at the forum posting styles?lol ) ,
but certainly they say the normal words when appropriate, like  "i'm sorry ,thank you, and "you were right"
They generally are quite polite (but more straight to the point ,and may be blunt)

*Directness* can be taken as impoliteness,but it is generally not intended without tact,
its intent is merely being honest and direct,that can be frustrating at moments for someone not
accustomed to it.. but in general is refreshing.
If it isnt , then RW may not be for you..:lol:

but certainly most RW know the difference  between being very direct ,
verses being crude or entirely without tact.
It's  a different culture, not  a different planet.

That sums it up!

AJ

Sorry to hear the bad news and I hope you get better very soon.

[Boethius]

Yet, you chose to marry a man from overseas. Clearly, you had to go overseas to find something that you did not find at home. You may consider your motives purer and more noble, but in the end what you did is no different from many of the men here. Many also had cultural ties to the FSU, many also worked in the FSU, many also learned the language... There was certainly a power imbalance as well in your case. The point that I am trying to make is simple: you found happiness overseas, and I am happy for you. But, you should also accept the fact that some men also happened to find the same love and happiness overseas and some women from Russia happened to find happiness with men from overseas no matter how they found it. They have as much a right to that happiness as anybody else.  

I went overseas to study, not to find a husband. I was a teen, barely out of high school.  That is distinctly different, no matter how you wish to spin it.  Moreover, I never had any problems with the quality of Canadian men and never thought locals were trying to take advantage of me.  Marrying a foreigner then was foolhardy or required a lot of courage, depending on your perspective.

There was no "power imbalance" when I married.  I married during Soviet times, when my dollar got me 60 kopecks, when many people avoided foreigners on the street because speaking to a foreigner meant they could be questioned, when many of my husband's relatives disowned him and told him he had "destroyed the lives of their children and grandchildren" and crossed the street when they saw him, and when OVIR basically stated he could not emigrate, on more than one occasion, ripping up his documents in front of him.  Yeah, it is exactly the same.
  
Once married, I was treated like every other Soviet citizen, which meant that I was, in many ways as a woman, "second class".  When anything had to be done, officials spoke to my husband rather than me, as I was a wife.  The change in dynamic was immediate and jarring.

I wish everyone happiness, and am glad when things work out for couples here or who I meet.  But to shop for a spouse like you would any other "product", rather than to recognize there is a living soul behind the package is demeaning.  That is what I am talking about and it has nothing to do with infantalizing women.  I don't expect you will ever understand this sitting on your high horse.

[Misha]

But to shop for a spouse like you would any other "product", rather than to recognize there is a living soul behind the package is demeaning.  That is what I am talking about and it has nothing to do with infantalizing women.  I don't expect you will ever understand this sitting on your high horse.

Speaking of high horses and needing to chastise the rabble below...  Who exactly shopped for a spouse? I met my wife while on Russia for business. I did not use an agency, rather a local site. It is was a question of "selling" and "buying" there were millions of people in the market. Trust me, I know my wife's soul quite well. No worse than you know your husband. Nonetheless, the fact of the matter is that all dating is marketing oneself to find the best partner possible. Fortunately, different people define better and best according to different criterion. You may think that there was no power imbalance, but you had a foreign passport at a time when many in the Soviet Union longed to live outside their state. You may like to believe otherwise, but from what I gather you did not renounce your citizenship while spending time in the Soviet Union as a teen. The fact that you came from Canada gave you an exotic cachet whether you want to admit or not. 

[Boethius]

Have I ever posted you were "shopping for a spouse"?  

You are very, very incorrect about having an "exotic cachet" at the time I was there.  If your kid wanted to get into a good kindergarten, or into a good school, you didn't rock the boat. Plus, most people couldn't tell I was a foreigner from speaking to me.  When they found out I was a Westerner, many would apologize profusely and make a hasty retreat.    

As for a foreign passport, it was of no use when you can't leave the country.  Exactly how many non Jews left the USSR before its collapse???   What idiot would give up their citizenship to become a stateless person in a xenophobic totalitarian state?

You have no idea how many times officials tried to break our marriage, or how many obstacles they put in our path not only to marry, but to even start to get paperwork going.  We knew at the time it was going to be a very long process.  BTW, I also lived there into my twenties.
  

[Misha]

What idiot would give up their citizenship to become a stateless person in a xenophobic totalitarian state?

You have no idea how many times officials tried to break our marriage, or how many obstacles they put in our path not only to marry, but to even start to get paperwork going.  We knew at the time it was going to be a very long process.  BTW, I also lived there into my twenties.

So, you kept your citizenship and thanks to your citizenship your husband was able to leave the Soviet Union. Again, describe it how you will, this tells me that you were not "equal" to to other women around you, no matter how you try to spin it. Your husband, whether you admit it or not, did receive something when he married you that he would have had a more challenging time achieving with you: the opportunity to leave.

As for the second part of your statement, it does confirm what I thought. From what I understand, you met one man when you were in your late teens and married in your early thirties. You therefore have very limited experience dating. This helps me to understand your perspective, and your inability to understand the challenges faced by others striving to find someone special to love, wherever they may be...

[Boethius]

So, you kept your citizenship and thanks to your citizenship your husband was able to leave the Soviet Union. Again, describe it how you will, this tells me that you were not "equal" to to other women around you, no matter how you try to spin it. Your husband, whether you admit it or not, did receive something when he married you that he would have had a more challenging time achieving with you: the opportunity to leave.

You are correct, I was not equal to other women around me.  I was a distinct liability.  Far, far more of a liability than any Soviet wife would have been.

What opportunity to leave, exactly?  He did not leave the Soviet Union.

You know nothing about what he went through.  Denounced as a traitor and a "bourgeois nationalist".  Called in for questioning by the KGB.  Facing provocations everyday so they could find something to put him in jail.  Once, in an underpass on Khreshchatik, he was surrounded and beaten.  He never struck a blow, knowing that one blow would be enough for a 2 year jail sentence.  He was left with 10 stitches in his chin.  Forced to work double, even triple shifts.  Stopped by the police at the bus stop each morning.  He learned to carry his cash and monthly bus pass in his shoe.  The list goes on and on.

Yes, I can see the real advantages to marrying a foreigner

As for the second part of your statement, it does confirm what I thought. From what I understand, you met one man when you were in your late teens and married in your early thirties. You therefore have very limited experience dating. This helps me to understand your perspective, and your inability to understand the challenges faced by others striving to find someone special to love, wherever they may be...

 No, I had lived there before, and after. 

I do understand people's challenges in facing dating and trying to find love.  I think it is wonderful that people have the internet and the ability to meet different kinds of people.  I think it is wonderful when people find true happiness.  But having a perspective that a woman must be a certain size, have particular outlooks, a certain level of gratitude, etc. is self limiting, immature and bizarre.  Other than the physical, you can't really know these things easily.  It just means that man is not looking for real love.

[wiz]

May I remind you the Original post and question of this thread?

Some Western men(WM) wait months or years before finding a woman he could live his life with in marraige. Most of us want a meaningful relationship but sometimes circumstances and life doesn't deliver. Besides emotional, we also have physical needs to take care of so my question to you is: IS IT OKAY FOR A WESTERN MAN TO BE SEXUALLY ACTIVE WHILE SEARCHING FOR A RW FOR MARRIAGE?

I don't think it's necessary to become so personal and question the cirtumstances of another member, except if it's deamed to have some weight regarding the original question!

Sorry Boethius but I have not read your story(if you posted one), so I have no idea of your personal circumstances. On the other hand why don't amend your profile to indicate cleary you are a FEMALE?