SEXUALLY ACTIVE MAN SEARCHING FOR RW

[Ade]

SJ,

The emphasized text falls into the category of name-calling and is not allowed.

Please refrain from such behavior, as it is totally non-productive.

Thanks,

- Dan

Sure Dan, no problem. 

[KenC]

Yes, I agree with that. Sure it is not nice when men try to use women, and women try to use men. Yes, some people do get hurt when dating. However, most people learn from their experience, are wiser for it, learn how to avoid such men and women in the future, and then move on. How does the saying go: fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

In answer to AJ's....

i think both of you would agree that the person using their advantage to get something over on another, is reprehensible  behavior, and that despite being adults, some women are duped quite unfairly..

OK guys, maybe we should lie to the women and tell them we are from Haiti or some poor African country, hide the fact that we make a decent living while the ladies wear masks and maybe some hidden padding to hide their true bodies.  Let's be real folks.  We seek mates of our equal.  It is always going to be a balancing act of comparisons.  How good a woman I can attract depends upon how good a man I am.  What defines a "good" woman and a "good" man will always include looks, security and the ability to provide for the family.  We men look for a pretty woman (and then all the other traits) and women desire a man that can provide a secure environment for the family.  Everyone is gonna play the hand they have to the max.  The whole reason for there to be a RW discussion in America is because we live in a desired location and RW are hot.
KenC

[Jumper]

kenC- no doubt

but these two seemed to be debating the acts of  men deliberately deceiving and misleading a woman,or several women at a time. for examle feigning sincerity to marry .
and its effect on the local RW.

its been going on for ages.
It happens from men of all nationalities.
(and women as well)
humans often arn't nice to each other..


i  figured they could agree on that *core issue*,
instead of debating wether a RW is permanently scared by the encounter
(or the western man.by being fleeced in the other case)

[Misha]

i  figured they could agree on that *core issue*,
instead of debating wether a RW is permanently scared by the encounter
(or the western man.by being fleeced in the other case)

My rationale is quite simple: men afraid of pro-daters should refrain from spending money they do not want to spend and women terrified of sex tourists should simply not sleep with foreign men unless they are attracted to them and want to sleep with them. There is nothing complicated to it. Smart men and women both here and there are perfectly capable of understanding this.

[Mars]

My rationale is quite simple: men afraid of pro-daters should refrain from spending money they do not want to spend and women terrified of sex tourists should simply not sleep with foreign men unless they are attracted to them and want to sleep with them. There is nothing complicated to it. Smart men and women both here and there are perfectly capable of understanding this.

Nicely put Misha.  Few here seem to be able to see the simple logic such as this, that would provide the best answers to a lot of the discussions.  However, the downside is that the threads would be much shorter!!  :-))

[wiz]

My rationale is quite simple: men afraid of pro-daters should refrain from spending money they do not want to spend and women terrified of sex tourists should simply not sleep with foreign men unless they are attracted to them and want to sleep with them. There is nothing complicated to it. Smart men and women both here and there are perfectly capable of understanding this.

When you write such things.... it's all GREEK to me! 

You forgot also to mention "Common sense"!

[Boethius]

How exactly do you define a third world country? Virtually all Ukrainians, have access to running water, electricity, schools, health care, and so forth. True, the average salary in Ukraine is less than in Europe and North America, but it is considerably a lot more than earns the world's poor (often a dollar or less per day). By all objective criteria, Ukraine is far from a "third world" country and I would wager that most Ukrainians would be somewhat insulted if told by a Canadian that their country is such.

I'm sure they would.  However, it doesn't mean that they are correct.

An Iraqi, facing an unnatural death rate due to 6 years of war, has a higher life expectancy than the average Ukrainian.  Ukraine's life expectancy is in the range of such "advanced" countries as Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Mongolia, Bolivia, and Azerbaijan.  To Ukraine’s credit, it has now moved ahead of North Korea.  Its GDP is about $2500 less than that of Cuba, and in the range of Bosnia, Turkmenistan, Namibia, El Salvador, and China.
 
In urban environments, people have access to running water.  Not so, to this day, in much of rural Ukraine, where communal wells are often the preferred method of getting water.   Go visit the rural areas of any of the Poltava, Ternopil, Ivano Frankivsk, even Chernihiv (not far from Kyiv) oblasts, and lack of indoor plumbing is the rule, rather than the exception.   I would suggest, as a foreigner, that you not drink the water.

Sixty per cent of Western Ukrainians are unemployed.  In some regions, it is 100%.  Almost every family survives only because one or two family members is working illegally abroad, especially in the Czech Republic, Poland, Portugal, or Spain, and sending money home to support the rest of the family.  

Access to quality medical care is also spotty.  I was speaking with a woman from a town in the Lviv oblast recently, whose adult children all still live there.  They are physicians and teachers, and haven’t been paid for months.  She supports them.  $10 CDN is a lot of money to them.  She said that in her small city, there were two surgeons.  With one, patients died on the operating table.  With the other, patients survived, but a high number died within a few weeks.  I send several over the counter medications to relatives in Ivano Frankivsk because they are not available in their region.  If you want any type of care, you need to pay bribes.  That is the reality of hospital care in Ukraine, particularly rural Ukraine, today.

In Kyiv, wild dogs run unchecked, and have maimed dozens and killed two children in the past year.  The city has no money to deal with this problem.

Infrastructure investment since the collapse of communism has been spotty, at best.  The same billionaires trade the same capital properties, without improvements thereto, over and over again, depending on who is in power.  Even the president, the president, has stated that "Ukraine can only be saved by a well educated honest patriot" (and he wasn't referring to himself).

Nothing I have said has not been said by Ukrainians, including my husband, who still holds a Ukrainian passport.

As for your self satisfied "clear choice" post and the smug responses thereto, that is easy to say, not having experienced the grinding poverty these people have.  That is what I meant about your high horse.  Here is what I am talking about -

Hutsol wishes Ukrainian women would be more suspicious of littleknown men making promises of any sort: “My own friends think that if they meet a foreigner they will have the perfect life. …But in reality they meet men, mostly from Turkey, who sleep with them, promise them the world and don’t even leave a phone number. That’s another problem with Ukraine having a reputation for beautiful, available women: Sex tourism isn’t always solely about prostitution.”

http://www.msmagazine.com/spring2009/SummerofSoCalledLove.asp

As Somerset Maugham put it, poverty doesn't ennoble the spirit; It's just the opposite, it degrades the spirit and morals.  

[Boethius]

Thank you for the diplomatic post, AJ.  You are a true gentleman.

[KenC]

Boethius,
And thank you for your last post.  Your insight is one of the true treasures here.
KenC

[Mars]

Boethius,
And thank you for your last post.  Your insight is one of the true treasures here.
KenC

Ken, I don't understand your viewpoint.  Yes, she posts some interesting and insightful things that point out some real problems in Ukraine.  However, for the most part her posts are irrelevant to the discussions at hand.  She continually ignores the very simple logic such as posted by Misha and goes on with the heart tugging stories, none of which are caused by or the fault of the posters here.

[Ade]

Ken, I don't understand your viewpoint.  Yes, she posts some interesting and insightful things that point out some real problems in Ukraine.  However, for the most part her posts are irrelevant to the discussions at hand.  She continually ignores the very simple logic such as posted by Misha and goes on with the heart tugging stories, none of which are caused by or the fault of the posters here.

I would have thought a woman's perspective and opinions should be valued very highly here considering that it is women that men here are striving to meet and marry.

FWIW, I think her posts are usually bang on topic and contain far more logic than do yours. Your inability to understand her points are your failing not hers.

[Mars]

I would have thought a woman's perspective and opinions should be valued very highly here considering that it is women that men here are striving to meet and marry.

FWIW, I think her posts are usually bang on topic and contain far more logic than do yours. Your inability to understand her points are your failing not hers.

I do fully value the women's thoughts WHEN THEY ARE RELEVANT to the thread topic.

I  do understand her points, they are just NOT RELEVANT to the thread topic.

I am willing to give full credit and honor to a good post, even where I mostly disagree with the person in most other posts.

There are some persons here who are not willing to do this and attack every one of my posts.

Are you willing to agree with me on anything, or will you follow me around from thread to thread and continue to attack each word I say?

[KenC]

Ken, I don't understand your viewpoint.  Yes, she posts some interesting and insightful things that point out some real problems in Ukraine.  However, for the most part her posts are irrelevant to the discussions at hand.  She continually ignores the very simple logic such as posted by Misha and goes on with the heart tugging stories, none of which are caused by or the fault of the posters here.

Mars,
I disagree.  Boethius is a "must read" for me here.
KenC

[Mars]

Mars on Today at 10:41:30 AM

1) Ken, I don't understand your viewpoint. 

2) Yes, she posts some interesting and insightful things that point out some real problems in Ukraine. 

3) However, for the most part her posts are irrelevant to the discussions at hand. 

4) She continually ignores the very simple logic such as posted by Misha and goes on with the heart tugging stories, none of which are caused by or the fault of the posters here.

Mars,
I disagree.  Boethius is a "must read" for me here.
KenC

Ken, which of  my four statements above  do you disagree with?

[Ade]

I do fully value the women's thoughts WHEN THEY ARE RELEVANT to the thread topic.

I  do understand her points, they are just NOT RELEVANT to the thread topic.

I am willing to give full credit and honor to a good post, even where I mostly disagree with the person in most other posts.

There are some persons here who are not willing to do this and attack every one of my posts.

Are you willing to agree with me on anything, or will you follow me around from thread to thread and continue to attack each word I say?

I guess you mean "attack" as in disagree?  

I think you will find I don't post a rebuttal to "every one of your posts" - usually because I can't stop laughing or because I'm so exasperated by what I read there that I just throw up my hands in resignation.

I'm also not surprised that you think you understand her posts but from what you've written in the past I've deduced that you aren't that bright; so no surprises there then.

[Misha]

An Iraqi, facing an unnatural death rate due to 6 years of war, has a higher life expectancy than the average Ukrainian.  Ukraine's life expectancy is in the range of such "advanced" countries as Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Mongolia, Bolivia, and Azerbaijan.  To Ukraine’s credit, it has now moved ahead of North Korea.  Its GDP is about $2500 less than that of Cuba, and in the range of Bosnia, Turkmenistan, Namibia, El Salvador, and China.

Yes, and Russia has an incredibly high rate of alcohol consumption which leads to Russian men having a much higher mortality rate than the women, even though they live in the same country. The life expectancy for men in Russia is roungly 59 years and women 73 years. Yes, in other countries women tend to live a bit longer than men, but find me another country where women live close to 15 years longer in terms of life expectancy than the men.

As for other indicators, let us look at GDP (PPP) per capita. Ukraine in 2008 according to the IMF (numbers courtesy of Wikipedia) came in the 94^th place with $7,342. It is roughly located in the middle. I agree, it is a poor country and does much worse than Russia ($15,948 at the 52^nd spot). However, let's compare it to other countries: Zimbabwe ($268), Afghanistan ($760), Nepal ($1,144), Haita ($1,317), Tajikistan ($2,023), Vietnam ($2,794) and Moldova ($2,984). In other words, it still has a ways to go before catching up to the richest countries of the world, but it still doing much better than the truly poorest countries of the world that most people associate with the "third world."

What does this mean? Well, I would say that, yes, women in Ukraine can gain economically by marrying a foreigner and moving to Europe or North America, but they are still doing relatively much better than much of the world.
 

In urban environments, people have access to running water.  Not so, to this day, in much of rural Ukraine, where communal wells are often the preferred method of getting water.   Go visit the rural areas of any of the Poltava, Ternopil, Ivano Frankivsk, even Chernihiv (not far from Kyiv) oblasts, and lack of indoor plumbing is the rule, rather than the exception.   I would suggest, as a foreigner, that you not drink the water.

Listen, I have spent a fair share of time in villages in Russia and I did drink the water. Yes, many of the locales did not have running water, but it still did not mean they were desperate and they were lacking in basic amenities. One such region, for example, had buses running regularly through the villages so people could go to the larger center and the train station. They had electricity, televisions, schools, hospitals,.... Sure they were not "rich" but they raised their own cattle, grew their crops and raised their family. I have a friend who lives in such a village in Russia. She now has high speed internet and we chatted on Skype. She is doing well. Both of her daughters were in the city studying. One daughter had just returned from a trip to the United States (one of these programs offered to students so they can go work for a few months in the USA). We chatted for close to an hour. Overall, she was quite happy.

Simply put, one can't impose Canadian ideals of the "good life" onto another country. The women that I met in Russian villages were not desperate to leave. Those who wanted greater social mobility went to university or moved to cities and got jobs in cities where the overwhelming majority of the citizens of Russia live (more than 80% if IIRC). The problem facing the Russian countryside is that it is emptying out. Most peole living there are much older women as the men tend to die at an earlier age and the young leave. So, yes, maybe some of the babushki in the villages would gladly marry a foreigner to save them some effort in drawing water from the well, but something tells me there won't be many takers    

Sixty per cent of Western Ukrainians are unemployed.  In some regions, it is 100%.  Almost every family survives only because one or two family members is working illegally abroad, especially in the Czech Republic, Poland, Portugal, or Spain, and sending money home to support the rest of the family.

Yet, the official statistics for all of Ukraine peg the unemployment rate as of December 2009 at 6 to 7% (this according to the Kyiv Post: http://www.kyivpost.com/news/nation/detail/32336/). And this is much higher than it was at the start of the year.  

Access to quality medical care is also spotty.

Still much better than what you are likely to find in Zimbabwe or Mongolia.  

In Kyiv, wild dogs run unchecked, and have maimed dozens and killed two children in the past year.  The city has no money to deal with this problem.

And? Stray dogs were rampant in Moscow in the 1990s, yet the many Muscovites that I met in those years affirmed that Moscow was a city that rivaled London, Paris and New York.

Infrastructure investment since the collapse of communism has been spotty, at best.

I agree, but still much better than what would will find in the poorest countries of the world.

As for your self satisfied "clear choice" post and the smug responses thereto, that is easy to say, not having experienced the grinding poverty these people have.  That is what I meant about your high horse.  Here is what I am talking about -

Let's see, the first years of my life were spent in a log shack with no toilet (aka no running water and an outhouse). In the morning our eyes would often be frozen shut as we would wait for our father to stoke the wood stove and heat up the house. In other words, I lived a lifestyle that pretty much resembles that you describe for the "third world" Ukrainians. Yet, oddly enough, we were quite happy as children, did not consider ourselves poor, and did not experience our life as "grinding poverty." If anything, I enjoy going to the Russian countryside as it brings back fond memories of my childhood: the milk fresh from the cow, meat that was raised on the farm, the friendly people who are more than happy to welcome any guest and site around the kitchen table drinking tea or coffee.... If that makes me smug, then I will wear the title as a badge of honor.  
 

As Somerset Maugham put it, poverty doesn't ennoble the spirit; It's just the opposite, it degrades the spirit and morals.  

I will have to tell my mother then that our childhood degraded our spirit and morals  

[KenC]

Mars on Today at 10:41:30 AM

1) Ken, I don't understand your viewpoint.  

Boethius is one of the most intelligent and insightful members here IMO

2) Yes, she posts some interesting and insightful things that point out some real problems in Ukraine.

 The post above is an example of the tremendous wealth of information she shares here.

3) However, for the most part her posts are irrelevant to the discussions at hand.  

I disagree

4) She continually ignores the very simple logic such as posted by Misha and goes on with the heart tugging stories, none of which are caused by or the fault of the posters here.

I disagree.  Misha is also a source of great information.  Both are great resources for RWD.  Their viewpoints are often from a different perspective due to the sum of their personal experiences.  Both are valuable.  I for one enjoy their debates very much.
KenC
(Your comment regarding her "heart tugging stories" comes across insensitive and condescending IMO)

[Turboguy]

I think poverty does little harm to the spirit unless it is accompanied by hoplessness. The real sadness of poverty is here where our attempts to deal with it nearly always results in a huge case of entitlement attitude.

[Boethius]

Yes, and Russia has an incredibly high rate of alcohol consumption which leads to Russian men having a much higher mortality rate than the women, even though they live in the same country. The life expectancy for men in Russia is roungly 59 years and women 73 years. Yes, in other countries women tend to live a bit longer than men, but find me another country where women live close to 15 years longer in terms of life expectancy than the men.

I wasn’t posting about Russia.  Nevertheless, your response is irrelevant to the issue.  Life expectancy is an indicia of the wealth and availability of health services.  Ukraine’s life expectancy, for both men and women, is far lower than any of its European neighbours, other than the Russian Federation, which has a higher rate of alcoholism.  

As for other indicators, let us look at GDP (PPP) per capita. Ukraine in 2008 according to the IMF (numbers courtesy of Wikipedia) came in the 94th place with $7,342. It is roughly located in the middle. I agree, it is a poor country and does much worse than Russia ($15,948 at the 52nd spot). However, let's compare it to other countries: Zimbabwe ($268), Afghanistan ($760), Nepal ($1,144), Haita ($1,317), Tajikistan ($2,023), Vietnam ($2,794) and Moldova ($2,984). In other words, it still has a ways to go before catching up to the richest countries of the world, but it still doing much better than the truly poorest countries of the world that most people associate with the "third world."

Ukraine’s GDP in 2008 was $6,900.  Wikipedia’s number is an estimate.  My number comes from the Ukrainian state and the World Bank.  Ukraine’s GDP is lower than that of Belarus, which does not have the infrastructure or industry that Ukraine is blessed with.

What you are missing in the equation is that Ukraine, unlike most of your examples, has a highly educated and highly skilled labour force, almost universal literacy, a high level of industrialization, and a democratically elected government.  Yet, despite all this, almost two decades after the collapse of communism, a large percentage of the population still lives in third world conditions.

What does this mean? Well, I would say that, yes, women in Ukraine can gain economically by marrying a foreigner and moving to Europe or North America, but they are still doing relatively much better than much of the world.

Again, irrelevant, and has nothing to do with my original point.
 

Listen, I have spent a fair share of time in villages in Russia and I did drink the water. Yes, many of the locales did not have running water, but it still did not mean they were desperate and they were lacking in basic amenities. One such region, for example, had buses running regularly through the villages so people could go to the larger center and the train station. They had electricity, televisions, schools, hospitals,.... Sure they were not "rich" but they raised their own cattle, grew their crops and raised their family. I have a friend who lives in such a village in Russia. She now has high speed internet and we chatted on Skype. She is doing well. Both of her daughters were in the city studying. One daughter had just returned from a trip to the United States (one of these programs offered to students so they can go work for a few months in the USA). We chatted for close to an hour. Overall, she was quite happy.

Well, good for you.  I have spent a significant amount of time in rural Alberta.  Should we compare notes?

Like rural Alberta, Russia is not Ukraine.  Nevertheless, your anecdote has made my point.  Your friend and her daughters are not leaving the country to work abroad illegally and sending money “home”.  They have ready access to hospitals, which many rural Ukrainians do not have.  Many rural Ukrainians don’t have computers, let alone internet access.  My cousin’s child bled to death because there was no ambulance to take him to the nearest town, 20 km away, for treatment.  That is a third world condition.  

Simply put, one can't impose Canadian ideals of the "good life" onto another country. The women that I met in Russian villages were not desperate to leave. Those who wanted greater social mobility went to university or moved to cities and got jobs in cities where the overwhelming majority of the citizens of Russia live (more than 80% if IIRC). The problem facing the Russian countryside is that it is emptying out. Most peole living there are much older women as the men tend to die at an earlier age and the young leave. So, yes, maybe some of the babushki in the villages would gladly marry a foreigner to save them some effort in drawing water from the well, but something tells me there won't be many takers    

Well, thank you for the lecture on Russia.  But once again, it is irrelevant to the point I was making.  

Poverty is poverty.

And what makes you think all Ukrainian rural dwellers (in some oblasts, as much as 50% of the population) are babushkas?

Yet, the official statistics for all of Ukraine peg the unemployment rate as of December 2009 at 6 to 7% (this according to the Kyiv Post: http://www.kyivpost.com/news/nation/detail/32336/). And this is much higher than it was at the start of the year.  

Go read Ukraine’s government statistics.  I am referring to Western Ukraine. Or go visit Toronto, where a lot of illegal immigrants from Western Ukraine are working.  You will get a completely different picture, even anecdotally.

Still much better than what you are likely to find in Zimbabwe or Mongolia.  

Because Zimbabwe is the standard of measurement to which a country should aspire?

And? Stray dogs were rampant in Moscow in the 1990s, yet the many Muscovites that I met in those years affirmed that Moscow was a city that rivaled London, Paris and New York.

How many people were killed in Moscow by stray dogs?  It is not the fact stray dogs exist.  It is that they are a menace in the country's major population centre, and it doesn't have the will or resources to deal with the problem.

I agree, but still much better than what would will find in the poorest countries of the world.

Irrelevant.  I am not comparing Ukraine to the “poorest countries in the world”.  I am stating that in many respects, its populace lives in third world conditions.

Let's see, the first years of my life were spent in a log shack with no toilet (aka no running water and an outhouse). In the morning our eyes would often be frozen shut as we would wait for our father to stoke the wood stove and heat up the house. In other words, I lived a lifestyle that pretty much resembles that you describe for the "third world" Ukrainians. Yet, oddly enough, we were quite happy as children, did not consider ourselves poor, and did not experience our life as "grinding poverty." If anything, I enjoy going to the Russian countryside as it brings back fond memories of my childhood: the milk fresh from the cow, meat that was raised on the farm, the friendly people who are more than happy to welcome any guest and site around the kitchen table drinking tea or coffee.... If that makes me smug, then I will wear the title as a badge of honor.  

Exactly how my parents and grandparents lived (my grandparents, even when I was a child), although they had coal stoves, not wood.  But the point is not how you, or they, lived.  That is a small part of the poverty I am referring to.  You are no longer living in a log shack without running water or a coal stove, are you?  I would hazard a guess your parents are not, either.   Nor are most Canadians.  You had the opportunities provided by your to change your life.  Most Ukrainians don’t.  That is the point.
 

I will have to tell my mother then that our childhood degraded our spirit and morals

 

See my response to Turbo.

I think poverty does little harm to the spirit unless it is accompanied by hoplessness.

I  agree, and that was Maugham’s take as well.  Keep in mind the (British) society and times he was living in.  It is not poverty itself, but the inability to rise above these conditions that is the issue.  In Ukraine, as I posted above, the populace is well educated.  Yet, despite this, most Ukrainians are like a hamster on a wheel.  No matter how hard they work, they will never be able to advance beyond a certain level.  For the most part, you are on your own there.

[Misha]

Yet, despite all this, almost two decades after the collapse of communism, a large percentage of the population still lives in third world conditions.

This I can agree with. Metaphorically, I could also say that parts of Canada also live in third world conditions.
 

Well, good for you.  I have spent a significant amount of time in rural Alberta.  Should we compare notes?

More than happy to compare notes.

Like rural Alberta, Russia is not Ukraine.  Nevertheless, your anecdote has made my point.  Your friend and her daughters are not leaving the country to work abroad illegally and sending money “home”.  They have ready access to hospitals, which many rural Ukrainians do not have.  Many rural Ukrainians don’t have computers, let alone internet access.

Fine, I will defer to your evaluation of life in Ukraine, as you agree with me that women in Russia are not desperate to leave and will not throw themselves at any man just because he has a foreign passport.

My cousin’s child bled to death because there was no ambulance to take him to the nearest town, 20 km away, for treatment.  That is a third world condition.

My condolences. Certainly a tragic incident. 
 

And what makes you think all Ukrainian rural dwellers (in some oblasts, as much as 50% of the population) are babushkas?

Extrapolating from what I have observed in Russia. The young are leaving rural Russia in droves. Many villages have been abandoned and the population that remains is quite aging rapidly.
 

Go read Ukraine’s government statistics.  I am referring to Western Ukraine. Or go visit Toronto, where a lot of illegal immigrants from Western Ukraine are working.  You will get a completely different picture, even anecdotally.

Fine, you have convinced me that Ukraine is a poor country where everybody is desperate to leave and where women will sleep with any foreigner in the hopes of leaving their homeland.

 

Because Zimbabwe is the standard of measurement to which a country should aspire?

You were the pedant challenging the fact that the Edmonton International Airport was located in Leduc, and not Edmonton, I can challenge your definition of Ukraine as a third-world country 
 

How many people were killed in Moscow by stray dogs?  It is not the fact stray dogs exist.  It is that they are a menace in the country's major population centre, and it doesn't have the will or resources to deal with the problem.

A young woman was killed in Nova Scotia by coyotes, am I to conclude that Canada is covered in forests with packs of coyotes hunting down the citizenry of Canada? Isolated incidents are not in themselves proof of anything.
 

Irrelevant.  I am not comparing Ukraine to the “poorest countries in the world”.  I am stating that in many respects, its populace lives in third world conditions.

Relevant. You said that Ukraine was a third-world country, implying that the country was comparable to the poorest countries of the world. Now, you simply refer to parts of Ukraine living in third world conditions. There is a difference.
 

Exactly how my parents and grandparents lived (my grandparents, even when I was a child), although they had coal stoves, not wood.  But the point is not how you, or they, lived.  That is a small part of the poverty I am referring to.  You are no longer living in a log shack without running water or a coal stove, are you?  I would hazard a guess your parents are not, either.   Nor are most Canadians.  You had the opportunities provided by your to change your life.  Most Ukrainians don’t.  That is the point.

And, you miss my point. When we were living in the shack, we did not consider ourselves poor and we were not desperate. In many ways, we lived better then: we had our own pigs, cows, chickens and therefore always had fresh meat and could eat as much as we wanted. The point is that applying outside definitions of poor and rich is not always appropriate.
   

[facetrock]

  Maybe there should be another question on the poll.  " Would you screw a woman just for fun because she was hoping you might take her out of poverty."
   This has been happening for centuries. A rich man comes to town with bucks and has his way with some of the local woman, old story.  Look at Tiger Woods. Money = Power = all the sex you want with good looking woman.
  But I do understand the point Boethius is making, I just dont think its common in Ukraine or Russia.  To find the women she describes all us men would have to be tramping around every little berg in Ukraine looking for prey. Then when we find them we have to hope they are stupid enough to fall for our BS so we can get laid.
  I have never heard of anyone that has ever striclty traveled to the small villages in search of a wife.  I have visited some small towns in Ukraine(under 5000 pop.) The women didnt look to naive to me walking around in mini skirts and high heels at the local market.
   Almost all men look in places to go with a population of at least 400k. The woman they date have experience with men and are smarter than most of the men they date. They are usually divorced or have had multiple boyfriends in their past. The thought of a foreign man is more a curiosity than anything. Its a rare woman that will actually leave home for a foreign man much less look for one.
  Plenty of men have had their hearts broken in the FSU and have broken a few womens too, but local men break more hearts and shatter more dreams than us foreigners could ever think of.
   
 
 

[Boethius]

I could also say that parts of Canada also live in third world conditions.

Yes, but mostly on reserves.

Extrapolating from what I have observed in Russia. The young are leaving rural Russia in droves. Many villages have been abandoned and the population that remains is quite aging rapidly.

You can't make that extrapolation.  Large parts of rural Russia consisted of empty villages, with just a few old women still living there, in the early 1970's.  That was not so in Ukraine in the 1970's, in the 1980's, and is not so now.  Have a look at the rural/urban demographics.

Fine, you have convinced me that Ukraine is a poor country where everybody is desperate to leave and where women will sleep with any foreigner in the hopes of leaving their homeland.

I have never posted that.  

You were the pedant challenging the fact that the Edmonton International Airport was located in Leduc, and not Edmonton, I can challenge your definition of Ukraine as a third-world country  

It is located in the County of Leduc, or more aptly, Nisku.  You can't change geography, anymore than you can change that an indicia of living standards is easy access to healthcare and running water.

A young woman was killed in Nova Scotia by coyotes, am I to conclude that Canada is covered in forests with packs of coyotes hunting down the citizenry of Canada? Isolated incidents are not in themselves proof of anything.

There is a world of difference between a national park, which is set aside for wild animals, and where that woman was attacked, and a major city of a European country, which also happens to be its capital, its centre of economic and political power, and has a population of 4.4 million (including suburbs).

Relevant. You said that Ukraine was a third-world country, implying that the country was comparable to the poorest countries of the world. Now, you simply refer to parts of Ukraine living in third world conditions. There is a difference.

In terms of living standards, it is a third world country.  Go visit a Ukrainian hospital.  Even in Kyiv, my MIL had to bring your own sheets in order to ensure she had clean linens, and they were changed by her daughter, and pay nurses to have water delivered to her room.  

And, you miss my point. When we were living in the shack, we did not consider ourselves poor and we were not desperate. In many ways, we lived better then: we had our own pigs, cows, chickens and therefore always had fresh meat and could eat as much as we wanted. The point is that applying outside definitions of poor and rich is not always appropriate.    

You also didn't have rich foreigners coming around showing you how much better you live, and offering them an opportunity to escape that poverty.  Do you think that poor people who see well fed, well dressed foreigners are too stupid to put two and two together?


I am not suggesting most men are catting around, facetrock.  Nor do I care about casual sex between consenting adults.  I also am not saying the women are naive or virginal.  I just want you to see the other side of the equation, and the mentality of the people.  Honestly, were I a man looking for a FSU wife, I would avoid Ukraine (no offense to the intelligent and honest Ukrainian women posting here).  

A lot of the women from cities and "smaller towns" in Ukraine are from rural environments, and have moved to those cities, in search of a better life.  You are just as likely to find someone who moved from a village to Kyiv as to find a native Kyiyanin.  Most Ukrainians have a tie to a village.  Two thirds of Ukraine's oblasts still have a rural population of over 40%.  There are rich villages, mostly concentrated around Kyiv, but there are a lot more poor rural areas than there are rich.

[Misha]

You also didn't have rich foreigners coming around showing you how much better you live, and offering them an opportunity to escape that poverty.  Do you think that poor people who see well fed, well dressed foreigners are too stupid to put two and two together?

Again, you are assuming that everybody wants to be a Westerner. It is always possible to define the superior as inferior and the inferior as superior. People are always very capable of boosting up their status and proving that they are better than others. The "poor" can feel superior to the "rich" and Ukrainians (or Russians, or any other nation) can also find ways of defining themselves as superior to American, Canadians, Europeans or anybody else...

[Boethius]

I'm not saying everyone wants to be a Westerner.  But most people who are poor would rather not be.

[Misha]

I'm not saying everyone wants to be a Westerner.  But most people who are poor would rather not be.

We will have to agree to disagree. In my observation, not every person who would be deemed "poor" by a middle-class North American will see themselves as living in misery and will strive to become "rich" as defined by outsiders. Likewise, some people, for example, will take vows of poverty and become monks or nuns to seek spiritual salvation, others will disavow careers leading to big salaries for personal satisfaction.