VO vs VM: What are the similarities and differences?

[Mars]

AJ posted that VO and VM are very similar, up to a point:

“that one group , BOTH narrowing the field by letters and phone,

the other group  is narrowing the field by meeting in person
(like real life everyday meetings do.  So its not some horrible practice its made out to be)”

I will now expand on his points.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

In most (but maybe not all) cases the man (woman) starts out with a data base(s) of possibilities that contains more than one person of the opposite sex.

Long before any finalization of a VO or VM, there occurs a screening process.  This process likely starts right within the data base itself, before any contact is made at all.  Screening for age, looks, height (but never weight), education, language skills, existing children, wants children, location, etc.  This is the first stage screening. 

This screening is facilitated by the ability to compare each person to the others in the data base.  Perhaps through the ability to compare, the person decides he or she must lessen their demands, or maybe they realize they can become more selective than originally thought.  At the end of the phase one screening, the data base now shrinks to a smaller subset of the original data base(s).

Next likely comes contact via written communication, snail mail or e-mail.
In this process, second stage screening occurs.  This screening is facilitated by the ability to compare each person to the others in the data base.  Perhaps through the ability to compare through actual communication, the person decides he or she must lessen their demands, or maybe they realize they can become more selective than originally thought.  The data base now shrinks to a smaller subset of the first phase data base.

In the third stage of the screening process, there is likely an exchange of phone calls and possibly video enhanced phone calls.  This screening is facilitated by the ability to compare each person to the others in the data base.  Perhaps through the ability to compare, facilitated by the real time give and take of verbal communication, the person decides he or she must lessen their demands, or maybe they realize they can become more selective than originally thought.  The third phase data base now shrinks to a smaller subset of the second phase data base.

It is likely that for both VO and VM, the above will describe, more or less, the procedures and thought process involved.  There may have been considerable differences in the sizes of the beginning and sub-set data bases, screening criteria, specific contact methods, speed of moving through the stages, etc.  However, there should be little room for disagreement about the logic and rationality involved in the process itself.

There has been some talk that the VO person spends more time getting to know the other party prior to the trip, and thus can make better pre-trip judgements.  However, this is not necessarily true.  Depending on the time available and skills of the VM traveler, he/she can spend just as much time pre-trip with each of their parties as does the VO person with their party.

The two procedures (VO and VM) now diverge at this point, the fourth phase.

By definition, there is only one person left in the fully screened data base for VO, and two or more persons remaining in the VM data base.  But in actuality, there can still be variations even here.  For instance, a person may be planning on a VM and actually only perform a VO because either:
a) one or more persons drop out after the trip is planned or even after arrival of the traveler.
b) after first person is met, the traveler refuses to meet with others who had agreed to meet.

And now we can address an issue which asks about the logic of actually planning a VO vs VM.  As pointed out above, there is little to no difference in the screening processes of the first three stages followed by either VO or VM.  But there is a difference in the decision to have two or more prospects to meet, compared to having only one prospect to meet.

There has been much talk on these boards of the ‘chemistry’ factor, perhaps more so from the women than the men.  It has been well reported here that, regardless of the number of months and frequency of phone and video communications, chemistry will only be determined at face to face meetings.

So how will this chemistry thing play out?  It would seem the VM traveler has flexibility and probability on his/her side.  The VO traveler might claim their more extensive pre-trip time would lessen any chemistry surprises.  However, as noted above, any given VM person with enough time could devote the same extensive pre-trip time with two or more persons, same as the VO person does with one person.  And we are still left with the known fact that chemistry will only finally be determined at meeting time.

As AJ pointed out, the VO narrows the field to one before a meeting.  The VM allows for a meeting to narrow the field further.

The fourth phase is the visit.  Screening continues, by both sides, during this phase of course.

A major difference in the fourth phase screening process, relative to the first three stages, is the ability for comparisons.  Now it is true, that for average persons who have previous dating experience, they can compare their current dates to past dates over the previous months and years.

However, the VM approach will now allow for a real time comparison with two or more persons who perhaps the traveler finds much different in culture, etc., relative to past dates in their home country.  The VO traveler will not have this real time comparison.

A VO traveler might likely see very few flaws in his/her date.

A VM might likewise see very few flaws in his/her first date.  But after dating person 2, he/she might now realize something disagreeable about person 1.  And likewise they might see something that bothers them about person 2 relative to what they experienced with person 1.  The more persons he/she dates, the larger becomes the list of flaws found in not only the latest dates but, upon reflection, in the earlier persons dated also.

Is there any value or harm in this ability to compare or not to compare, and discover the inevitable flaws in us all?

Perhaps it depends on the urgency with which the individual parties feel the need to get married.

One could hypothesize that this lack of comparison is a major contributing factor to the ongoing poll here that indicates more marriages resulting from the VO method as compared to the VM method.

As a side issue, I note with some humor the tendency for some to label  getting a person of the opposite sex to agree to marry you ‘success.’
That agreement is one of the easiest things in life to obtain.

As a teenager I entered into a marriage which lasted for nearly 30 years and was only terminated when I became a widower.  Two children resulted, both of whom have achieved a good education, are not on welfare, have never been arrested, and are not addicted to drugs.  This gives me some reason to think of the term ‘success.’  And yet even this pales in comparison to the ‘success’ of my grandparents, one set of which was married for 68 years and the other set for 72 years.

[vwrw]

Great and well -thought out post, Mars!

Do you have any idea why women associate themselves with meat when men use VM approach? Thanks to your comprehensive comparison of the two approaches, everyone can see that women are screened regardless of what approach men use. However, they feel treated as meat when men use VM. This mystery seems to be beyond my comprehension.

[Ade]

The two procedures (VO and VM) now diverge at this point, the fourth phase.

Actually, a lot of VO are WO so they diverged at your stage 2. There is no writing to several at the same time to compare and select the best. There's the writing to one and if you are compatible you meet.
 

A VO traveler might likely see very few flaws in his/her date.

A VM might likewise see very few flaws in his/her first date.  But after dating person 2, he/she might now realize something disagreeable about person 1.  And likewise they might see something that bothers them about person 2 relative to what they experienced with person 1.  The more persons he/she dates, the larger becomes the list of flaws found in not only the latest dates but, upon reflection, in the earlier persons dated also.

Is there any value or harm in this ability to compare or not to compare, and discover the inevitable flaws in us all?

Perhaps it depends on the urgency with which the individual parties feel the need to get married.

Seriously, do you think that VO men have absolutely no experience with women and require a sample pool to learn about "women's flaws"? What's more, you are assuming that VO men have the sense of half a house brick when it comes to establishing whether he and the woman he's visiting are compatible or not. I'm starting to believe that your are projecting your own inadequacies onto this argument; it's understandable that you wouldn't have much experience with women in general given that you were married for so long. Don't sweat it; date as many women as you want, just don't assume the rest of us need to.

I had to edit and split this sentence off so I could do this ...

One could hypothesize that this lack of comparison is a major contributing factor to the ongoing poll here that indicates more marriages resulting from the VO method as compared to the VM method.

[Mars]

Great and well -thought out post, Mars!

Do you have any idea why women associate themselves with meat when men use VM approach? Thanks to your comprehensive comparison of the two approaches, everyone can see that women are screened regardless of what approach men use. However, they feel treated as meat when men use VM. This mystery seems to be beyond my comprehension.

I have no answers because those ideas are a mystery to me also.

There are many mysteries in this endeavor such as why something is OK for one person and not OK for another.  Why it is OK to to screen for certain variables but not others.  Why it is wrong for a man to VM, but it is OK if the woman receives many suitors. Why men currently or previously married to a FSUW can say something but another man will be hung for saying the same thing, etc., etc.

Another phenomena here is the tendency for the VO men to rigorously support each other with frothy vigor, whereas VM men seem to be more laid back and less prone to vicious attacks or even supporting one another.  Don't know what this indicates exactly, but it has some parallel to what happens in political debates.

I made the original post, not to bring ridicule to either approach, but to demonstrate that the two approaches are very similar in most respects up to some point.  However, I was certain that some posters, rather than discuss the common points and merits and have a rational discussion, would choose to make personal attacks on me.

Also have you noticed that certain posters follow other posters around from thread to thread solely for the purpose of attack?  Seems they have some sort of unnatural obsession with the person.

[greg2654]

Seriously, do you think that VO men have absolutely no experience with women and require a sample pool to learn about "women's flaws"?

Right on the dot!!
I would hope that men looking overseas for a wife have already dated, married, divorced and have, at least, a stumbling idea of what they're looking for.

[Mars]

Quote from: SeriouslyJaded on Today at 04:53:00 PM
Seriously, do you think that VO men have absolutely no experience with women and require a sample pool to learn about "women's flaws"?

Right on the dot!!
I would hope that men looking overseas for a wife have already dated, married, divorced and have, at least, a stumbling idea of what they're looking for.

Greg, you have fallen into the well laid trap to agree with someone who deliberately misinterprets and mis-states what another has said.  :-))

I clearly said in the OP:  "Now it is true, that for average persons who have previous dating experience, they can compare their current dates to past dates over the previous months and years."

[vwrw]

Also have you noticed that certain posters follow other posters around from thread to thread solely for the purpose of attack? 

Yes, there are some annoying, closed -minded bores here.

A VO traveler might likely see very few flaws in his/her date.

A VM might likewise see very few flaws in his/her first date.  But after dating person 2, he/she might now realize something disagreeable about person 1.  And likewise they might see something that bothers them about person 2 relative to what they experienced with person 1.  The more persons he/she dates, the larger becomes the list of flaws found in not only the latest dates but, upon reflection, in the earlier persons dated also.

Is there any value or harm in this ability to compare or not to compare, and discover the inevitable flaws in us all?

Perhaps it depends on the urgency with which the individual parties feel the need to get married.

I agree with you. Often, being under a romantic influence, knowing that a woman belongs to a different culture, and having very limited experience in communicating with various representatives of the culture may lead a man to ascribe the woman's flaws to her culture rather than her personality. Meeting several women could help the man recognize invalid attributions. However, when man's goal is to not lose the only woman who thinks she can live with him, he is not interested to know anything but how to keep her beside him.

[greg2654]

However, the VM approach will now allow for a real time comparison with two or more persons who perhaps the traveler finds much different in culture, etc., relative to past dates in their home country.  The VO traveler will not have this real time comparison.

This is the part that I have a problem with.
First let me say that I feel that VO or VM depends on what works with your own personality. Myself, I just can't deal with more than 1 woman at a time.

If a person has to do a side by side comparison it sounds to me as though he's going on a fishing trip with no clear idea of what he wants. These women will know if your going to meet other women and they will treat you with the same level of indifference, (or decide that they need a new coat). Why not? You're probably not coming back anyway.

[Ade]

Quote from: SeriouslyJaded on Today at 04:53:00 PM
Greg, you have fallen into the well laid trap to agree with someone who deliberately misinterprets and mis-states what another has said.  :-))

I clearly said in the OP:  "Now it is true, that for average persons who have previous dating experience, they can compare their current dates to past dates over the previous months and years."

You also said, "However, the VM approach will now allow for a real time comparison with two or more persons who perhaps the traveler finds much different in culture, etc., relative to past dates in their home country.  The VO traveler will not have this real time comparison."

Which to most people is an absolutely bizarre statement and totally wipes any credibility from the sentence that came before it. You then went on to say, "One could hypothesize that this lack of comparison is a major contributing factor to the ongoing poll here that indicates more marriages resulting from the VO method as compared to the VM method."

You seem to think that "real time comparisons" of multiple women is a necessity and without that, any relationship resulting from a VO is somehow flawed and rushed. Well, for some people like you it may very well be that you require a "comparison sample" but I can assure you that the rest of us do not need it to be able to determine if a person is compatible or not. 

Another thing you are missing in all of this bizarre rhetoric that you continue to post is that no matter what you think about which method is the best, ultimately, it's the women you will be visiting that will decide if your method is to their liking or not. From what I've read and heard here and elsewhere, the majority of women do not like the VM approach and regardless of whether their reasoning is logical or not, their opinion counts as it's their decision which your visit will depend upon. You could always lie of course, and from what you've said in previous posts, I guess you will.

I have no answers because those ideas are a mystery to me also.

Which says it all really.

Another phenomena here is the tendency for the VO men to rigorously support each other with frothy vigor, whereas VM men seem to be more laid back and less prone to vicious attacks or even supporting one another.  Don't know what this indicates exactly, but it has some parallel to what happens in political debates.

Maybe you're referring to a different forum than this one but I don't see any less "frothy vigor" from one side or the other. What tends to be different is that most VO men say, "fine, do a VM if you wish just be open and honest and be aware that most women do not approve" and most VM men say, "VO is an idiotic risk that stand little chance of success."

I made the original post, not to bring ridicule to either approach, but to demonstrate that the two approaches are very similar in most respects up to some point. 

And in the process insult and infer that our VO relationships are somehow flawed because of the method used to start them. Maybe you are too oblivious to actually realize what you said?

However, I was certain that some posters, rather than discuss the common points and merits and have a rational discussion, would choose to make personal attacks on me.

Also have you noticed that certain posters follow other posters around from thread to thread solely for the purpose of attack?  Seems they have some sort of unnatural obsession with the person.

And then there's this. I was pretty sure you'd pull a comment like this out of your hat. Well, I'll bite so let me explain. Your views are generally diametrically opposed to mine, in fact, I think that most are illogical and are at best foolish. You show the empathy of a brick and an immaturity, or maybe that's more of an inexperience with women, that I can only attribute to a teenager. But I guess this comes from 30 years of marriage.

You'll also notice that I'm a member here. I guess you are also observant enough to notice that I reply to many other people and threads besides yours. In fact, more of my posts are directed at them than at you. Maybe I have obsessive hots for them too, right? 

If you want a logical discussion (or in your vocabulary, a logical "attack"), stick to facts and logic and stop insulting and using wild supposition. 

[Shadow]

The basic difference here is the amount of time and emotions that can be allocated.

The WOVO will invest full emotions in one person, a WMVO will compare the contact and visit the most likely candidate, keeping others for either later visit or inform them if the trip ends in forming a relationship.

A VM visitor will have limited time, as most VM can not travel for a month or longer.
Due to the obligations of meeting others and the limited time that can be allocated to each, chances of having in-depth meeting with any are lower.
Unless the VM has possibility for frequent travel, chances are high that the 'relationship' with the one he decides to pursue after the first VM meeting will fade due to lack of time together.

This danger holds for the VO as well, however as he can express commitment face-to-face the 'cooling period' will be longer.

As for women feeling treated as meat, it depends on the method. Any man who decides to go over and meet 20 women over a cup of coffee is thinking in the way of selecting an employee, not trying to establish a lasting relationship.
It may happen, as, in the famous words of JB, even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes.

[Turboguy]

If you want a logical discussion (or in your vocabulary, a logical "attack"), stick to facts and logic and stop insulting and using wild supposition. 

Isn't 90% of what we say on RWD "wild supposition"?   We all feel that whatever method worked for us is the only thing that will work and anyone who tries something else or believes something else is an idiot.

Frankly I think "happenstance" may be the biggest factor which makes VM or VO the choice.   If whatever method you use gives you one person who has you convinced she may be the woman of your dreams, then go see her.   If instead you think a RW may be right for you and you have some women who seem nice and like they could have potential, go see them but take enough time to really get to know them.   A cup of coffee won't do it.   And if you have no prospects at all then go use an agency and meet 20 women for coffee or place a classified and meet everyone who responds for a brief meeting.

Don't be convinced by the statement of a couple of ladies who would refuse to meet a VM guy that all RW are that way.  I just met too many women on VM trips to belive it will be a problem for the majority of the men.   Everyone has a right to make thier own decisions and set their own standards.   We have a few women who have set their standards high and that is fine.   If you are going to visit a woman for 5 days she knows you are serious.  If you ask to meet her for a cup of coffee she knows you are not.   Funny though, most internet dating in the USA starts with a coffee date.   

[Ade]

Isn't 90% of what we say on RWD "wild supposition"?  

No.

We all feel that whatever method worked for us is the only thing that will work and anyone who tries something else or believes something else is an idiot.

Uh, no.

[vwrw]

No.

Uh, no.

Certainly, not. Your opinions are based on hearsay rather than on suppositions. You are like a parrot who is trained to repeat words but it cannot make own supposition because of its biological limitations. LOL

Your views are generally diametrically opposed to mine, in fact, I think that most are illogical and are at best foolish. You show the empathy of a brick and an immaturity, or maybe that's more of an inexperience with women, that I can only attribute to a teenager. But I guess this comes from 30 years of marriage.

I think you are projecting your own mental deficiencies onto Mars. You are like a foolish child who says that others are idiots because they "illogically " assume that the stars are huge in their size. You simply are lacking some knowledge (which are probably filtered out or blocked by your defense mechanisms or belief's system to avoid damaging your prone to negative exaggerations consciousness), and that lacking of fundamentals affects you and leads to your incomprehension of Mars's logic.

[boaterguy]

Can I throw a wrench in the pot? I was a WOVO because I was not actively searching for a woman abroad. I guess I R A lucky chap! I signed up on globalladies out of curiosity(1 night after the umptenth crappy match.com date)...forgot about it...then started getting letters. After a 100 or so letters I finally started looking at the ladies that were "writing to me?". My wife's letter tweeked my curiosity enough to start corresponding. Finally reached the point that I felt I would always be thinking the shoulddda,coulda,woudda's if I did not go meet her! I never even browsed through the catelogues, much less wrote to a woman first!

[KenC]

And the silly debate continues..................

Everyone's goal is to eventually get to the VO stage.

Many of the circumstances are unique.  Personally I was a WOVM!     I communicated with Lena for a few months before I went over.  Due to our age difference and postponement of any romantic leanings, she was well aware that I would be meeting others.  I wrote an introductory letter for the other women and lined up meetings.

Sometimes I think the VM crowd has just not yet come across "the one" yet.  At least not through written or any other communication besides face to face.  I also think that the VM crowd is willing to make the additional trip in order to make their final decision, while the VO people are just willing to make their semi final decision without the benefit of a face to face experience.

There are so many factors involved that there is no one correct way to do this.  How good of a connection two people are able to make before meeting is one of them.  How serious each of the couple are in pursuing each other is another.  How high the standards are for each is another.  Expectations, experience, personality, available time, schedule flexibility, income, .....the list of variables is endless.  Nailing down one specific "correct" method is impossible IMO.  Do what you think is right for you.
KenC

[BillyB]

I would hope that men looking overseas for a wife have already dated, married, divorced and have, at least, a stumbling idea of what they're looking for.

A lot of men deciding to go overseas are older and probably just recently divorced. They have little or recent dating experience.

When I was a younger man I always focused on one woman at a time. Because I didn't allow myself to date other women, I didn't have other women to compare against the one I was dating. I ignored a lot of red flags and tried too hard to catch one woman. I was basically a blind squirrel looking for a nut(the right woman).

My social skills with ladies are much sharper now and I can date multiple ladies without feeling any pressure to marry. I also learned some of these lady's goal is not to marry since they just want companionship occasionally.

I was on one dating site where it shows when a man and woman are logged on. One lady being jealous accused me of writing other women and I told her that it was true and I consider her a friend first because we never met. I told her if she has feelings for me, then we can discuss where we should go with those feelings and if we should plan to meet. At the time she was my favorite woman I communicated with. She said she did not want to talk to me anymore. I remained a gentleman and I wrote back that I'll respect her wishes and will not write or call her on the phone. If she was the only woman I wrote to, I may have begged her to continue with me and phone her all the time in hopes she'll talk to me. I think a lot of you "one woman at a time" guys know exactly what I'm talking about since you may have not found your "one" until dozens of years past the time you first became a man.

 A week later of no communication between us she writes back to me wanting to continue talking. Although ladies want a man who will only focus on one woman, they want a man in demand. They are more attracted to men who have options in their life and that has many women desiring him. If you don't have any women chasing after you, there may be a reason for that and it's not appealing to women to know that you're not desired by other women.

When I was younger and focused on one woman at a time, looking back at the past I realized I gave many signals of desperation to make things work between the woman and myself. Desperation = turn off for women. When I was younger and a woman wanted to stop talking to me, it affected me emotionally. If a woman told me she wanted to stop dating me now or found another man, I will wish her well and good luck. Having other options(women) in life makes that easier to say.

[Ade]

Certainly, not. Your opinions are based on hearsay rather than on suppositions. You are like a parrot who is trained to repeat words but it cannot make own supposition because of its biological limitations. LOL

I think you are projecting your own mental deficiencies onto Mars. You are like a foolish child who says that others are idiots because they "illogically " assume that the stars are huge in their size. You simply are lacking some knowledge (which are probably filtered out or blocked by your defense mechanisms or belief's system to avoid damaging your prone to negative exaggerations consciousness), and that lacking of fundamentals affects you and leads to your incomprehension of Mars's logic.

Does TurboDude know you have a crush on another really old dude?

And that's about as close as I can get to answering your silly post.

[BC]

I think you are projecting your own mental deficiencies onto Mars. You are like a foolish child who says that others are idiots because they "illogically " assume that the stars are huge in their size. You simply are lacking some knowledge (which are probably filtered out or blocked by your defense mechanisms or belief's system to avoid damaging your prone to negative exaggerations consciousness), and that lacking of fundamentals affects you and leads to your incomprehension of Mars's logic.

I had difficulty understanding this one, so used an online translator to translated it back into Russian, then to German and back into English..

The result: "You're an a$$hole"

[Ade]

I had difficulty understanding this one, so used an online translator to translated it back into Russian, then to German and back into English..

The result: "You're an a$$hole"

No surprise there then.

[Turboguy]

I had difficulty understanding this one, so used an online translator to translated it back into Russian, then to German and back into English..

The result: "You're an a$$hole"

That and she thinks the posts Mars makes are logical.

Does TurboDude know you have a crush on another really old dude?

Thats ok, I'm not the jealous type.   

[Turboguy]

And the silly debate continues..................

Everyone's goal is to eventually get to the VO stage.

I thought your post on the topic was one of the best here Ken (not particularly the part I quoted though).   I do think it is an individual thing and some of it is what your feelings are for the person or people you are communicating with.   Some of it may as well be the experiences you have had.   I had a lot of trips where I thought someone was going to be the one and meeting them was a big disappointment.   That left me seriously jaded.  Doing WOVO trips just didn't make sense.   

I think another factor is that times have changed.  When I started my search there was no video chat, there wasn't even internet and getting to know someone without spending time was more difficult when you wrote letters and the time between sending one and getting a response was 4-6 weeks.   Probably these days with video chat and cheaper phone calls you can get to know someone well enough to make a VO more logical. 

[Gylden]

Turboguy,
I have to say IMO you and KenC are some of the most respect worthy guys here. (despite the occasional mooning) lol.
Kens comment which you quoted IMO hits the nail on the head!
I do think it is also part of the benefit here on RWD that there are such diverse experiences for those who poke their noses in to draw from.

It is a given that it can get pretty hot at times, but it is just the nature of the public forum.

I look forward to becoming an old geezer here eventually!
 

[vwrw]

Does TurboDude know you have a crush on another really old dude?

And that's about as close as I can get to answering your silly post.

Not surprisingly, making silly claims is all you can do.

[Boethius]

Never stay up on the barren heights of cleverness, but come down into the green valleys of silliness. - Ludwig Wittgenstein