Moscow trip report, I have returned.

[Vaughn]

Olga, K-1 sponsors are not required to be of the male gender. It's not unfair to women,
but perhaps to the beneficiaries - who could be (and sometimes are) male.

[OlgaH]

Tell that to the Judge

So tell us please how many men and women were prosecuted when something did not work between a man and a woman and the woman returned home or how many GC girls were prosecuted for fraud    

[OlgaH]

Olga, K-1 sponsors are not required to be of the male gender. It's not unfair to women,
but perhaps to the beneficiaries - who could be (and sometimes are) male.

Yes, Vaughn I know, I asked the question in such way because there are much more women beneficiaries than men   

[OlgaH]

This lady is telling me there's a good chance she is not willing to move to my country and be my wife.

The woman actually just wants to see your real life. That's it. What was your purpose to visit her in her own country?

It is also very possible that my answer to her would be, "it's not going to work that way and you have made a life decision for both of us...good bye and good luck"

In short words : Marry or Die.  

She just doesn't have any rights to meet your family, you friends, to see how you really live, your life style and so on. I guess it is only male prerogatives  

[Misha]

Misha,

I think it is absolutely unfair to put people in such position.

It certainly makes the process that much more complicated. However, if a woman is granted Canadian permanent residence, there is no requirement for her to stay married to her husband. Just as long as she does not dump him at the airport upon her arrival (which would demonstrate that her application for PR was fraudulent), she can pretty much leave at any time after that and her sponsor is financially responsible for her for 3 years and she can easily apply for citizenship in three years with or without a husband.

[Faux Pas]

The woman actually just wants to see your real life. That's it. What was your purpose to visit her in her own country?

To meet and get to know her. As discussed, our immigration laws do not permit her to come meet me, legally.

In short words : Marry or Die. 

Not at all. More to the tune of love me for me or, move along 

She just doesn't have any rights to meet your family, you friends, to see how you really live, your life style and so on

Why is that so hard to understand? The current US laws do not permit it with the K-1 visa. Has there been a rash of Western men falling in love with a woman's family and friends and using her to be with them? Your comparison is falling woefully short.

I guess it is only male prerogatives 

I thought Vaughn explained that very well. It's not a gender based option 

[OlgaH]

Not at all. More to the tune of love me for me or, move along  

If I would be that woman I would understand from your words that you really don't care about my feelings only about yours  

And after your post the advice as "it is important to meet her family and friends to see how they treat each other, how she behaves in her own environment... sounds as a double standard

I thought Vaughn explained that very well. It's not a gender based option  

And I think I also explained very well why I used such way of a question as I did.

[OlgaH]

Why is that so hard to understand? The current US laws do not permit it with the K-1 visa.

If the current US laws would not permit it at all they would require it like in Canada more comlicated and without any 90 days.  

[Sculpto]

And after your post the advice as "it is important to meet her family and friends to see how they treat each other, how she behaves in her own environment... sounds as a double standard

Olga.. you hit the nail on the head with that one.  When I mentioned that to a certain Siberian lady.. "I think I should meet your family before we get married" her response was.. "why is it so important?  I will not meet your family before I leave my country, family and friends to be with you"

I could not argue that point because she was right.  The sacrifice the ladies make in coming here is far greater than what the men make.  Any man who doesn't understand that, or, who doesn't make an extra effort to compensate for that is probably asking for trouble/divorce.  

How does that old saying go?  "when the lady is happy the man will be happy too"

[Faux Pas]

If I would be that woman I would understand from your words that you really don't care about my feelings only about yours 

Maybe you would   But I would only hope and pray that she felt the same way towards me, love her for her or move along

And after your post the advice as "it is important to meet her family and friends to see how they treat each other, how she behaves in her own environment... sounds as a double standard

Actually, I don't know where you got this but, it isn't quoting me. However, calling it a double standard doesn't make it a double standard. It is the law and the system in which we operate. IMO, there is infinitely more success to be had by working within the system rather than trying to break the laws that govern it.

[OlgaH]

Any man who doesn't understand that, or, who doesn't make an extra effort to compensate for that is probably asking for trouble/divorce.  

Any man who truly loves his woman and cares about her would think as Gylden.

I wouldn't have though about marrying my wife without her first hand knowledge of my everyday life and the different environment in her prospective new home.
Someone needs to wake up!!
 

[OlgaH]

It is the law and the system in which we operate.

Yes, and some men would rather operate with such phrase as "It is the law and the system" than to agree to give a woman two months to see him real. 

[Admin]

Yes, and some men would rather operate with such phrase as "It is the law and the system" than to agree to give a woman two months to see him real. 

Yours is one interpretation.

Another interpretation of the same fact pattern is that *some* men (and women too) believe in living a principled life and wish to adhere to the law.

The latter is certainly a more difficult path, and many are unable/unwilling to hold themselves accountable to such a standard.

- Dan

[Faux Pas]

Yes, and some men would rather operate with such phrase as "It is the law and the system" than to agree to give a woman two months to see him real. 

And risk penalties under law, losing reputation, jobs and a bevy of others up to and including criminal record or jail time

[Sculpto]

Yours is one interpretation.

Another interpretation of the same fact pattern is that *some* men (and women too) believe in living a principled life and wish to adhere to the law.

The latter is certainly a more difficult path, and many are unable/unwilling to hold themselves accountable to such a standard.

- Dan

And some laws are unjust and interfere with the lives of individuals or are sometimes used to specifically persecute individuals or groups of individuals.  Should those laws be ignored or should they be followed because they are the law?  

In the country of Niger slavery was recently outlawed.  A woman, who had been taken as a slave at 12 years old was set free by her master, but, this master demanded they were to be married.  She did not want to marry him.  She appealed to the court which found in her favor.  The master appealed to a higher court which found in his favor.  She attempted a third and final appeal, lost, and was fined $120 and forced to marry her master ( a huge amount for an ex slave in Niger).  But hey.. thats the law.. so I guess she has no choice but to marry the man that enslaved her for 8 years, raped her, impregnated her etc..

Following the rule of law assumes the law itself is principled.  If the law is unjust, the right thing to do is break it, smash it, and then try to force it to be changed.  That my friend is the America I believed (believe) in, the one where an individual can make a difference, where one single person can make things better for everyone.  But.. nooooo... gotta follow the rules.. can't change anything.. can't seek a better way.. can't understand the difference between the law and what is right... sheeple.

[Sculpto]

And risk penalties under law, losing reputation, jobs and a bevy of others up to and including criminal record or jail time

Sounds like the USSR.

[OlgaH]

And risk penalties under law, losing reputation, jobs and a bevy of others up to and including criminal record or jail time

Really? Because a woman at interview said "we are going to marry" but after two months she decided not to and went home  

[OlgaH]

Yours is one interpretation.

- Dan

Yes, and my interpretation is a man who is self-confident and love his woman will let her make her final decision in the frame of 90 days after some time living in his home, in his country. He will let her experience the same things  he experienced when he was visiting her. 

[Faux Pas]

Really? Because a woman at interview said "we are going to marry" but after two months she decided not to and went home  

No. Because he and she lied committing fraud and were caught. There are a great many of us who value our names, reputations, livelihoods, principles and unwilling to take those risks. For those that are willing, power to you. Don't get caught. Lying is apparently something you have no moral or ethical problem with. To each their own.

[Admin]

And some laws are unjust and interfere with the lives of individuals or are sometimes used to specifically persecute individuals or groups of individuals.  Should those laws be ignored or should they be followed because they are the law?  

In the country of Niger slavery was recently outlawed.  A woman, who had been taken as a slave at 12 years old was set free by her master, but, this master demanded they were to be married.  She did not want to marry him.  She appealed to the court which found in her favor.  The master appealed to a higher court which found in his favor.  She attempted a third and final appeal, lost, and was fined $120 and forced to marry her master ( a huge amount for an ex slave in Niger).  But hey.. thats the law.. so I guess she has no choice but to marry the man that enslaved her for 8 years, raped her, impregnated her etc..

Following the rule of law assumes the law itself is principled.  If the law is unjust, the right thing to do is break it, smash it, and then try to force it to be changed.  That my friend is the America I believed (believe) in, the one where an individual can make a difference, where one single person can make things better for everyone.  But.. nooooo... gotta follow the rules.. can't change anything.. can't seek a better way.. can't understand the difference between the law and what is right... sheeple.

>>Following the rule of law assumes the law itself is principled.<<

And WHAT, in this instance, do you find unprincipled about the law in question?

- Dan

[OlgaH]

No. Because he and she lied committing fraud and were caught. There are a great many of us who value our names, reputations, livelihoods, principles and unwilling to take those risks. For those that are willing, power to you. Don't get caught. Lying is apparently something you have no moral or ethical problem with. To each their own.

If it would be a lie and fraud the consulting firms would not tell people and write openly about such advantage of K-1 as 90 days to get know each other better.    A marriage after receiving visa K-1 and coming to U.S. is really not an unconditional obligation  

Faux Pas, it is not about, the laws,  lie, committing a fraud, being caught it is about not to make a mistake in life. It is elementary about people's life. When people tell a consulate officer they are going to marry but not mention such part as only after two months because they want to be absolutely sure is not a lie or fraud it is elementary protection of their lives.

Some people are absolutely sure about their decision as Robert and I were, but some people would like to experience his/her partner and the life in a strange country first and then to make a decision. And my advice to that people would be to take advantage of 90 days.  

If you could read  Russian forums you would see  there are enough women lamenting about their life, especially when they marry in their home towns and then come to U.S. they discover that many things about their so wonderful spouses are not exactly so wonderful and after some period the divorce machine starts.

So choosing between the laws and the humanity I choose the humanity and elementary sympathy and understanding of peoples situation when I say there no need to mention a "tryout" if you are asked the question "Are you going to marry"   To each their own  

          

[Sculpto]

>>Following the rule of law assumes the law itself is principled.<<

And WHAT, in this instance, do you find unprincipled about the law in question?

- Dan

The exclusion and often arbitrary denial of visitor/tourist visas are clearly "forcing" some couples to make K1 visas for trial periods when that is not what they are intended for.  If the law was functioning properly people would not be trying to break or stretch the rules.

[Jumper]

Olga-

If you could read  Russian forums you would see  there enough women lamenting about their life, especially when they marry in their home towns and then come to U.S. they discover that many things about their so wonderful spouses are not exactly so wonderful and after some period the divorce machine starts.

not related to the topic at hand..
but it would be interesting if they more often found issues with the man himself ,
or with their perception of lifestyle, that was not what they envisioned vefore relocation.

[OlgaH]

Olga-
not related to the topic at hand..
but it would be interesting if they more often found issues with the man himself ,
or with their perception of lifestyle, that was not what they envisioned vefore relocation.

AJ, usually it is about a man and his actual life style that a woman never had a chance to experience during his several visits, and also issues with his family and his position.

[UTRO]

um-mm, speaking of Fraud.....

How many of us Men here on RWD have travelled to Russia on a VISA that wasn't exactly produced for the intended purpose written on it........... Tourist, Business......?
This is what we do for our Women, but is it not fraudulent? Condoned or not by the system, are we not knowingly breaking Russian laws? So, how different is this from bending the K-1 rules to your advantage?