RW and Astrology

[Shostakovich]

My view is that there is always a bit of gamesmanship going on between people and that is because people are always trying to get what they want and to constellate others towards their ends.  Human desire/need and the psychological channels through which it expresses itself is a very interesting, albeit long, subject. 

But as long as we are on this subject: new query.  I often see references to astrology in ladies profiles.  The belief in astrology seems to be more pervasive among women than men and more pervasive among R/U women than their Western counterparts.  Anyone care to comment?  I am a great one for many of the systems that are around to characterize the dominant features of the personality.  I am thinking primarily of the Myers-Briggs system but also the Enneagram.  Compared to these the zodiac seems to be a fairly weak system, perhaps because it is so complex.  So what would you say, R/U ladies - is interest in the zodiac quite pervasive in your home country and is it used as a way to understand personality or as a means of predicting the future?   

[Avis]

hehe

quite a task to judge the whole nation

you need to remember we've been living in atheism for almost a century (well a bit less still rather long ) this must have affected the country in certain ways.
apparently after USSR collapsed we insanely went deep into all this misterious stuff, and this includes not only horoscopes but also magic, a variety of religions since we're a multinational country, and all sorts of mistificitaions available
anyways, from what i see now, russian women tend to try and find some zodiac stuff here and there
me personally stick up for the idea of compatibility in this regard whether this right or wrong 

this approach suits me fine since i'm an Aquarius, and my BF is a Libra. All the horoscopes say we are a perfect match

to be honest i tend to believe what zodiac says about personal characteristics and definately find those in myself
at the end of the day you believe in what you want to believe in

[Shostakovich]

Oh!  The interest in astrology can be a positive thing.  Interesting how if one is perceived as being critical one gets the judgmental label and if complimentary then one gets the appreciative label.

Aquarius, eh?  As it turns out I am a Libra also.  Did you see the scales at work in my sentence above?  I know Libra/Aquarius can be a good combination.  One of the ladies I write to is Aquarius.  She is very intelligent, with an inquiring mind.  But that is the thing about astrology - it can be one of the things that clues you in about a type.  I have a very analytical mind, make my living in sciences but am not rigid.  I tend to believe in a thing when theory matches up with fact.  Last GF I had was a cancer, not a great one for a Libra they say but if you can see the issues coming you stand a greater chance of working around them.  And she had those cancer qualities: changeable, insecure, creative and artistic.  I can see it too with another lady I write to, a Scorpio.  Another one that is not the most ideal for a Libra.  She is not an intellectual and her modest ways hide a very emotional and passionate self.  I am convinced I can have a relationship with any type, though will likely stay away from a Capricorn.  In relationship with an opposite you widen your life.  A big question for me is whether I go this route or choose compatibility.  A upcoming visit to the Ukraine will decide these questions.

But now I suppose we are off topic ... 

[Lily]

Shostakovich, I arranged your new thread so that you are no way off topic now

My opinion would be that there are as many astrology fans in America and Europe as they are in the FSU. Slighly more women then men among the adepts;) Where the people are, there are also beliefs in all kinds of supranatural things. Or I'd better say, the non-conventional or barely discovered things.

Someway I also do not leave the astrological things without my attention. If throughout my life I have met a lot of people for various reasons and occasions, and every time looking at their dates of birth in their IDs I found out that those born under the signs of Earth turned to be my best friends and supporters, no exceptions, then I probably have some reasons to believe that the astrology works. At least some good reasons for it.

[Avis]

Shostakovich,


i didn't mean to blame you not at all, it must've been my poor language, as well as my analytical approach
just tried to paint the picture not being too emotional obviously failed

anyway, IMO starting out a new relationship a person might try and make some sort of assumptions whether this one is going to work or not, zodiac is just another guessing

[KenC]

Shostakovich, I arranged your new thread so that you are no way off topic now

My opinion would be that there are as many astrology fans in America and Europe as they are in the FSU. Slighly more women then men among the adepts;) Where the people are, there are also beliefs in all kinds of supranatural things. Or I'd better say, the non-conventional or barely discovered things.

Someway I also do not leave the astrological things without my attention. If throughout my life I have met a lot of people for various reasons and occasions, and every time looking at their dates of birth in their IDs I found out that those born under the signs of Earth turned to be my best friends and supporters, no exceptions, then I probably have some reasons to believe that the astrology works. At least some good reasons for it.

Happy New Year Lily,
I think you misunderstand Americans' "interest" in astrology.  While there may be a small portion of Americans that believe in the astrological signs and their meanings, a far greater majority look upon them as a cute joke and do not take them serious in any way.  Most everyone I know does not give any credibility to astrology.
KenC

[tfcrew]

  Most everyone I know does not give  any credibility  to astrology.
 

I don't know any Russians that do either.
Happy New Year


Karl

[BrianW]

Lily, are you a Taurus? I am 


Astrology is pretty creepy, in my opinion. One time I was at a friends apartment and someone had a web page up for an astrology site. My friends were Capricorns, Sagittariuses, Pisces, Cancer and Taurus. We went around the room and read the description of each sign and their personality and they fit each person perfectly.


My Mom is not superstitious but reads her horoscope every day in the newspaper for fun and says its almost always accurate. Strange.

[SANDRO43]

Astrology is pretty creepy, in my opinion. One time I was at a friends apartment and someone had a web page up for an astrology site. My friends were Capricorns, Sagittariuses, Pisces, Cancer and Taurus. We went around the room and read the description of each sign and their personality and they fit each person perfectly.

No wonder, since sign descriptions dwell mostly on positive personality traits, and people are quite willing to accept good news .

I faced a related problem many years ago with my first astrological publication - on match book covers (www.floriani.it/astro-eng.htm) - for reasons of available space, so I dwelt on the positives only.

Furthermore, a given personality trait may be welcome by some, and obnoxious to others. To cite just one example, Cancers are considered VERY affectionate persons, but their affection may be found oppressive and stifling by some, like the 40 y.o. Aries son being scolded by his 70 y.o. Cancer mother for not dressing warmly in the summertime .

[SANDRO43]

I found out that those born under the signs of Earth turned to be my best friends and supporters, no exceptions

How about arguments on details ? An oft-repeated personal experience: family sitting down at dinner, Father (Taurus/Virgo), Mother (Virgo/Libra), and I (Aquarius/Sagittarius) - a total of 3 Earth signs at the table.

One of them - irrelevant who - would make a remark like: "Sophia Loren carries her 37 years quite well."
The other - irrelevant who - would reply: "She's 36, not 37."

This would turn into a heated argument, some times broken dishes flying around, with me watching in astonishment and wondering "Why the hell are they arguing about THAT ?".
 

[Lily]

Happy New Year Lily,
I think you misunderstand Americans' "interest" in astrology.  While there may be a small portion of Americans that believe in the astrological signs and their meanings, a far greater majority look upon them as a cute joke and do not take them serious in any way.  Most everyone I know does not give any credibility to astrology.
KenC

Happy New Year Ken and everyone else on the board ,

Well, probably I misunderstand the 'interest'`of Americans in this indeed. Being not an expert in modern American society, I tend to believe that in very populated and developed countries like the U.S., there must be a number of people who take astrology pretty serious. No idea on how large or small this number may be. Never saw any stats on this. Besides, there also must be some people out there who just take astrology as a sort of entertainment, reading the published daily horoscopes or some general predictions for coming time for various signs.

Lily, are you a Taurus? I am  


Astrology is pretty creepy, in my opinion. One time I was at a friends apartment and someone had a web page up for an astrology site. My friends were Capricorns, Sagittariuses, Pisces, Cancer and Taurus. We went around the room and read the description of each sign and their personality and they fit each person perfectly.


My Mom is not superstitious but reads her horoscope every day in the newspaper for fun and says its almost always accurate. Strange.

Brian, I always smile when I hear words 'ARE YOU this or that sign'   People cannot be a sign . There are many planets that may be even more important than the sun. What about the moon for example.When someone is born, the sun may stay in a certain sign; this gives to people some reason to consider themselves as 'a sign'. But hey, there are lots of positions and aspects of various planets. Mars and Venus do matter. An ascendant sign might play a role, although it may be placed differently then the sun. There are certain homes; there also are the angles and aspects. You can contact any expert in case you want to know more of it.

Sandro, you pictured some sad little family battle apparently out of nothing I am afraid I don't get it what you mean.

The thing about Sophia Loren can be resolved instantly with looking for her correct date of birth that should be publicly available somewhere. Or did you mean to say that your parents tried to confirm her time of birth by astrological means and got into some differences?

Also, what did you mean by slash like Virgo / Libra? Sun in Virgo and moon in Libra, or?

[Shostakovich]

Hello Lilly,

Thank you for initiating this thread in my name.  It seems this topic would have general interest.

I'd agree with KenC above, most are skeptical about astrology.  I can't see any value in it as a means of predicting future events and the 'horoscope' column in the newspaper seems to have little more value than as an amusing pastime.  If it has any value it is in its ability to elucidate certain features of the personality.  Here I find sympathy for the system across across all strata of society, albeit in minority numbers.  It is not surprising as there are only so many psychologically minded people around and, as Lilly alluded to, the zodiac is a complex system: One may extract some value from the system through knowledge of the sun-sign but one needs knowledge also of the moon-sign, rising-sign and position of critical planets in order to round out the picture.  It is just too much work for most people and so the system tends toward hackneyed use.

 

[SANDRO43]

the zodiac is a complex system: One may extract some value from the system through knowledge of the sun-sign but one needs knowledge also of the moon-sign, rising-sign and position of critical planets in order to round out the picture.

Precisely. One has to contend at least with:

- Celestial bodies ("planets") = 10
- Zodiac signs = 12
- Houses = 12

IINM, that alone produces 1,440 permutations. Russian astrologer Nikolai Sementovski-Kurilo (born Poltawa, 1901) interpreted them all in his "Astrology: A Complete Theoretical-Practical Treatise" - and it took him most of its 900 pages. 

Plus you have to add planetarian aspects, any birth chart has at least a dozen - counting the major ones only. Thus a single horoscope will have a minimum of 20+ significant features. These then have to be re-evaluated in order of importance: for instance, a strong Mars in Aries in the 1st House may be a much more significant feature than those of Sun or Moon in many horoscopes.

Casting a horoscope professionally is no mean feat , it requires a lot of sensitivity and experience. Astrology is a symbolic system after all, and that means there are no rock-solid certainties. (1+1=3 or -13, depending ). In a way, it's more like being handed a Lego construction box, rather than a jig-saw puzzle that has only one correct solution.

It is just too much work for most people and so the system tends toward hackneyed use.

Correct. The forecasts one sees in newspapers/magazines are, for the most part, based on the assumption that Ascendant=Sun sign (meaning a dawn birth) to simplify calculations. 

I've been receiving from an Italian website a daily personalised forecast for the past 8 years, and it has proved somewhat accurate only about half-a-dozen times so far .

[Shostakovich]

Casting a horoscope professionally is no mean feat

As I understand it, the practice of the zodiac, like the practice of Chinese medicine is an intuitive art - meaning that a valuable reading  is as much dependent on the practitioner as it is on the factual information that underlies it.  These kinds of things tend to become dismissed by our 'objective' mindset.  Objective methods are all well and fine as they result in standardization and mitigate against incompetence.  With the zodiac, incompetent practice is more the rule than otherwise but this does not diminish the potential of the system.  It is important to remember, in our scientific age, as old Protagoras proclaimed, that "Man is the measure of all things".  Objective fact ultimately has its origin in perception.  The perceptive practitioner can go far beyond understood science, though such people are rare.  These are golden people, if you can find them-you are lucky, but in order to do so you must widen your gaze beyond conventionally accepted norms that govern behavior.

Largely because of the complexity, my interest in the zodiac has not really taken root.  I find other systems of personality characterization to be of much more utility, even if their descriptive potential is considerably lessened with respect to a system like the zodiac.  In particular I have in mind the Myers-Briggs, which some tend to think of as being 'scientific', since it is based in the work of a 20th century psychologist (Carl Jung).  But if you've read Jung you know he's as mystical as they come.  Then there is the Enneagram, with roots in ancient Sufism.  The 16 permutations of the Myers-Briggs and 9 types of the enneagram make these systems far more tractable for amateur use.

[SANDRO43]

As I understand it, the practice of the zodiac, like the practice of Chinese medicine is an intuitive art - meaning that a valuable reading is as much dependent on the practitioner as it is on the factual information that underlies it. 

I agree. In my experience, the actual divining methods used (horoscopes, tarots, coffee grounds, whatever) are just 'props' to put a sensitive practitioner into a receptive state, something to occupy the rational mind with and thus let another part come forward, synthetic rather than analytic, noticing general patterns rather than details. One may call that intuition, but IMO it's a different, older form of perception.

The perceptive practitioner can go far beyond understood science, though such people are rare.

I don't know about beyond, certainly somewhere else, for now . These practitioners may often stun you with revelations about your past, but are usually rather vague when it comes to the future. There are several theories to explain that, my own is, for want of a better term, deep telepathy: every day we write something in our mental diary, which becomes voluminous with age. They seem to have the uncanny ability of picking up some random 'pages', usually emotionally charged, and present them back to you, who may have forgotten or even subconsciously removed them. Future pages are obviously blank yet, but previous pages may point the experienced in certain directions, also considering that their petitioners are often VERY repetitive: in Italian we say that they are only concerned about their three Ss - Sesso, Soldi, Salute (sex, money, health).

But if you've read Jung you know he's as mystical as they come

I have, but I'd define him mythical rather than mystical . Joking aside, he was curious and open-minded, but I don't recall much mysticism in his works.

[Shostakovich]

I don't know about beyond, certainly somewhere else, for now .

When I wrote beyond I had the following idea in mind: Science gives you facts but not experiences.  One may model the mind and show exactly how the various chemicals and impulses are going around but in so doing will not have the experience that mind had while, for example, viewing a blue sky.  My view is that humans fundamentally desire experience and only use facts as vehicles to get there but if the experience were to be offered directly, that is more powerful.  But this becomes convoluted as the process of scientific discovery yields an experience also 

 
Future pages are obviously blank ...

A key factor determining the future is one's decision.  The future of one with a strong will can't be predicted. 

I have, but I'd define him mythical rather than mystical

Jung's association with myth comes from that fellow Joseph Campbell, who was one of his devotees.  Jung was a well-trained and careful scientist but he also came under the influence of that trend in European thinking that had been gathering steam ever since Schopenhauer convinced academicians to take Indian thought seriously.  For example, in his system, modes of psychological functioning were originally three: thinking, feeling, sensation -- empirically observable.  In India, three is the number of nature(prakriti) and these modes give one the means to maneuver in the concrete world.  But to support modes of perception that provide for mystical experience or transcendence (which Jung accepted) another mode of psychological functioning needed to be conjured - intuition.  With this discovery Jung knew he did not need to go further as in the old Upanishadic literature, 4 is the number of transcendence.   

[rambler]

I think Chinese and western astro can help predict compatibility ands more importantly incompatibility.  I didn't meet a girl in the last 12 months in Ukraine, France or Russia without checking out the following sources.

How else do you know how to handle each woman before you know her? How to choose the right ones to go and see?  Don't spend any time trying to learn the system - it takes years. Leave it to the professionals. Buy the cookbook style instructions on relationships.

I use Liz Greene and Suzanne White
http://suzannewhite.com/astrology-compatibilities/love-match.html


astro.com   Relationship horoscopes Liz Greene  - these are very very good and you can order online and get the results instantly.

OK you don’t believe in it? I am not going to debate about it here -  you can understand exactly what to expect by getting a reading on the relationship by these women.  Just send in your two birthdates, times and locations.  Buy their books, search for girls born in the right YEARS only.  If you are Dragon, forget Dogs,  forget Oxen  …. Find a Monkey or a Rat or a Rooster.  Then if you are going to meet, get a computer generated reading from Liz Greene. 

You can buy SW s books online and look up each woman on your shortlist. Using the Chinese system as the leading indicator, I set up a spreadsheet with the dates of birth,  and ages of girls -  ruled out certain aged girls strictly on the basis of incompatibility with my Chinese sign and looked for animal signs that are good matches. Then consider the western sign. I saw only 6 girls and it was the second one I met that I am about to marry.  I  could have married and bee happy with 2 others of those 6. That is a very high hit rate.

Going to meet women and making an impression is not cheap. If you have a very positive attitude about a certain woman and you can tell her a lot about herself, predict her reactions, and be confident that you can overcome any obstacle, you can make a big impression. You are in no doubt before leaving home that you have made a wise choice. 

I set up searches in EM for girls of certain ages only.  Watch out for lunar new year dates. You'd be amazed how many times you are initially attracted to exactly the wrong Chinese sign.  All my worst relationships were with Chinese animals with which a Dragon is known to be incompatible.  Not to say they weren't loving, passionate or dynamic relationships,  just doomed. 

So there are 12 western and 12 Chinese signs, 144 combinations and about 5 of those are ideal matches per person. So - this is very ancient wisdom, use it to find that very small %age of potential partners with whom you are compatible.  I have been observing this system in my relationships and friends for a lonnnggg  time and these two astrologers are the best out there in terms of relationships, price and accessibility.   Really if your Chinese signs are a no-no fugetaboutit, save yourself a life.  Check it out.

R

[brad5959]

I agree with the Chinese zodiac method of compatibility.  it also makes it a lot easier to weed out potential dates and narrow it down to a manageable number.  just google chinese zodiac compatibility.  you will see there are twelve animal signs in the chinese zodiac, and based on the date of birth of your potential partner whether or not he/she is a good match to you.

[Shadow]

I agree with the Chinese zodiac method of compatibility.  it also makes it a lot easier to weed out potential dates and narrow it down to a manageable number.  just google chinese zodiac compatibility.  you will see there are twelve animal signs in the chinese zodiac, and based on the date of birth of your potential partner whether or not he/she is a good match to you.

In Russia they just mix all systems and believe the one that brings them good news for the day.  As for the Chineze zodiac, almost every Russian knows 2010 is the year of the Tiger, where 2009 was the year of the Buffalo.
This because the Chinese New Year gives them a reason to extend the parties from the Jewish Hannukah in December until the end fo January. 

[Faux Pas]

I agree with the Chinese zodiac method of compatibility.  it also makes it a lot easier to weed out potential dates and narrow it down to a manageable number.  just google chinese zodiac compatibility.  you will see there are twelve animal signs in the chinese zodiac, and based on the date of birth of your potential partner whether or not he/she is a good match to you.

Yeah, Good luck with that 

[rambler]

Well - if you don't believe in the Chinese compatibility system - just do yourself a favour anyway- If it says you two are incompatible just keep on looking and save yourself a personal disaster.  Avoid signs 3 and 6 Chinese signs from yours - Go for 4 and 8 signs difference ....  You'd be amazed how many times people that are the  least compatible by this system are strongly attracted and wrongly. 
If you are compatible you can go for it and just totally concentrate on the positives and sweep aside all doubts she may have.  If you are serious about her get a reading done as mentioned above. 

R

[SFandEE]

This subject is kryptonite for me in a social situation.  I have found how to manage the subject so that if I am not interested I can move along.  If I am interested I can let her know that astrology is for "entertainment purposes only" for me even though I really don't find it entertaining, but if you do I'll try to figure out how to learn more about you as you talk about crabs, fish, and bull!

What would be interesting would be to talk about culture, history, science, your friends, your pets, me, or even better you!

[brad5959]

Well - if you don't believe in the Chinese compatibility system - just do yourself a favour anyway- If it says you two are incompatible just keep on looking and save yourself a personal disaster.  Avoid signs 3 and 6 Chinese signs from yours - Go for 4 and 8 signs difference ....  You'd be amazed how many times people that are the  least compatible by this system are strongly attracted and wrongly. 
If you are compatible you can go for it and just totally concentrate on the positives and sweep aside all doubts she may have.  If you are serious about her get a reading done as mentioned above. 

R

Suzzane White is an idiot.  she is saying Cat instead of Rabbit.  I will stick with Chinese practitioners.  sorry if you are getting some sort of kickback from her.

[Jooky]

Suzzane White is an idiot.  she is saying Cat instead of Rabbit.  I will stick with Chinese practitioners.  sorry if you are getting some sort of kickback from her.

I had to follow that link to see what you meant. Wow. I don't follow this stuff, but I know the Chinese zodiac signs. How can an expert get something so basic wrong?

[SFandEE]

In another part of the site she refers to Cat/Rabbit.