Perspective and Expectations

[Bruce]

It is very important for a foreigner visiting Russia or Ukraine, especially the first time to not only see things from his point of view, but to do his best to look at the locals point of view as well.  This may seem intuitive to those that have been to the FSU or many foreign countries before, but very often Westerners lose their perspective and focus as well as completely forgetting the perspective, culture, region and history of the country they are visiting.  Its easy to read about local customs like not whistling in the house, giving a woman an odd amount of roses, keeping ones feet on the floor etc., but the thought behind why the customs developed and why a given foreigner should be doing his best to blend in with his new found societal norms often is lacking. 

You finally get to a different part of the world.  Do you really expect anything?  Can you really expect anything?  Did you go back in time, or back to the future?   Are you scared yet?

How you handle yourself will be based upon your life experience, your character and demeanor.  Are you capable of keeping your wits about you, staying calm and learning or are you going to make the mistake of trying to make the foreign country you are now in fit your world? 

What are those girls dressed immaculately in high heels thinking about you?  You obviously are foreign?  Have they met any men like you?  Do they have an angle?  Are you an opportunity?  Are you bait?  Are you their salvation?  Are you a stepping stone?  Do you even exist?

For many of you, your first trip to the FSU was right out of the twilight zone.  Others just stepped in sh*t.   In any event, expect growth, both in yourself and those you meet.

I start this thread to have discussion about what a man should expect and how he should best gear himself mentally for what will hopefully be many trips to the FSU.   The poll will help a newbie gauge what may be his biggest challenge.  One thing I should add is that I obviously love Russia, it is my second country and I am very positive - so if Russia is not initially, it will become a breadth of fresh air eventually.

 

[catzenmouse]

I would have chosen 1, 5 & 9 but chose 9 as an overall impression.

Language: Even after months of listening to the CDs and learning to read basic stuff I could not understand a single thing that was said to me until I used the "Gaviritisia Midlana Pashulshta" and the took pity on this poor dumb furriner. I loved the food, the architecture, and the people in general. The pollution was a bummer but it was good to see the military out picking it up each Saturday morning.

Overall I think I helped myself out a good bit by reading lists like this and by reading other general information about the people, culture, and customs.

Ken

[Bruce]

Ken, I definitely agree with everything you wrote though I voted for cultural differences.

[Albert]

None of the above, unless you could call it cultural.

What surprised me the most, irritated me the most . . . and still does after more than 20 trips to FSU . . . is the complete arrogance and indifference of the people in a position to help customers.  i.e. the service personnel.

The first word that FSU people learn as a baby is Nyet.  And the service people practice this word many times each day just to make sure they do not forget it.

If you ask for something not available in a particular store or shop, they immediately say Nyet . . . and nothing else . . . even when they full well know that the very item is available in the next aisle, the next shop, just around the corner, etc.

Many of the women we meet are not much better at helping us.  They merely relay the Nyet to us and then have to be prodded to ask the next question . . . then where can we find the product or item?  I honestly don't know how most of them survive since they seem to accept the Nyet and seem at a loss to know what to do next.

[BC]

Voted for nr. 9

Difficult to describe.. I think I simply found it 'down to earth'.

People with very little pretence.

A world revolving around the proverbial 'kitchen table'

Content personal minimalism.

Cities with beautiful parks.

Trees as far as eyes could see.. beautiful natural scenery.

in all much much more than I ever expected.

[Photo Guy]

[size="3"][color="darkred"]My impressions. Kiev.

Beautiful women of ALL ages, who dress to attract. They're quiet in  public. Neon signs- like 'SONY'. Beer sold and drank on the streets.  Bright stadium lighting on the square. Somber hotel. Inexpensive  furnishings. Great food. Fast chaotic driving, but precise. Small cars.  Most men are in black. Straightforward chat. Bad English dubbing in  movies. No pews in Church.  A variety of weather.  Couples  kissing on public benches. New high-rise condo constructions.  Bleak-looking apartment complexes- soviet era. Very amateur rock  musicians on streets. Very pro classical musicians on streets. A former  Soviet General posing for photos for cash. A statue of Lenin. A high  quality market. A very small grocery store. A very interesting  soulfulness. A teary-eyed TV show host. People waiting their turn to  use a guy's cell phone, instead of a pay phone. Passports, books,  souveniers, and Orange Revolution items for sale on the square.[/color][/size][size="3"][color="darkred"] A  political rallye against the selling of tress from the public park. (vote for #5)[/color][/size]

[Shadow]

First trip to Eastern Europe was actually to SU. But not chasing women at that time

Trip to Kiev re-confirmed my ideas. Eastern Europe and Western Europe are not that different. Some economic and political challenges, but in general very compatible both in history and people.

It showed me that most of the local population does not want out. And it is very good possible to find an attractive female who does not want out and takes the first mule (or goat) that comes along.

 

[RacerX]

OK, so I guess I will have to admit to being superficial: I voted for 5.

On my first of many visits I went to Petersburg to attend a scientific meeting and was simply astounded at all the incredible women walking up and down Nevsky Prospect toting a shopping bag.

I partially figured out the women, but still have no idea why they use those bags.

[BC]

I partially figured out the women, but still have no idea why they use those bags.

yep.. FSU 'bag ladies'.. come to think of it those fancy ones I brought from the duty free perfume shop were snatched up quickly.. could probably make a small fortune selling high end shopping bags..

RVR where are you... we in business??? :brightidea:

[andrewfi]

Perhaps RacerX's recollections are a tad dated...

A few years ago, it was common for people, particularly women, to buy, from street sellers, carrier bags printed in the logo and design of upmarket brands. These bags were not even replicas of the real thing. They would be carefully looked after and retained for multiple uses. They were not cheap.

Brands such as Harrods, Gucci, Burberry were popular. For most of the people using these bags, this was as near as they would ever come to owning anything actually carrying these brands.

As time went by these bags became less popular and common, in concert with increasing wealth and the possibility for many to realise their consumer ambitions. By the time of my last visit, the sellers on Nevski had ceased selling bags and it was only at the rynoks that they could still be found, but by now they were just ordinary bags with no 'status' attached and, to my recollection they appeared to be overstocks and remainders of real bags used by retailers elsewhere in Europe.

Even now though, women do tend to keep the 'upmarket' branded bags for reuse. The ordinary ones are used for trash disposal.

 

 

[Todd]

I voted for 5, but I was definitely surprised by the way men treated women in Minsk.  I stayed at a nice hotel, which had a strip joint...Very different.  Also, I wasn't surprised much by the language barrier, but I was surprised by how prevalent English was and how utterly difficult it is to get around when you don't know the alphabet.  I experienced the same thing in the Far East, but there everyone knew that I wasn't from around there and none expected me to have any knowledge of Conji.

 

[Jet]

I voted along the lines of BC, again hard to describe but provincial Russia has a certain "broken-down charm" to it, like the old Ma & Pa Kettle movies of old.

[Ste]

No radio button for my choice but:

I love the place cos:

You can park anywhere with no traffic wardens or yellow lines

You can turn left or right while driving! - Anywhere - no stupid signs

No percievable rush hour (in Urals)

In short - I felt it was like UK in the 70's during my top-level shagging years, not taking the piss at all, i really love it there.

Maybe that's why so many have this age diff, seems to be this generation issue, Nadias dad is only 5 yrs older than me but he seems like my dad despite me telling myself he IS my generation.....

The collapse of the SU seems to have created this chasm of parents stuck in 50's/60's, kids getting up to speed for 90's/2000..

Of course now the youth of Russia specifally is the same as European youth of today but you can still see the gulf wrt parents. You don't learn that by reading a forum though......

You have to go!

Ste

[ronin308]

Andrew while didn't see bags for sale along the upscale stores but I did see them marketed in the Rynok with various values depending on the store it was from.

It made me think of the business opportunity thing, but when you realize that even "upscale" bags aren't worth more than $2 or so meaning it would take a hell of a lot of bags to make a living.  Most of the stalls selling bags did so as just one of many items they were selling.

My first trip to Ukraine was during the orange revolution so the biggest shock was watching the political process unfold around me.  The one thing that interested me is that the people were a lot more friendly than I expected.

[andrewfi]

Yes, they are sold at the markets, but nowadays with no special 'cachet'. I mentioned that upthread. Folks just use 'em for shopping. At one time girls (only ever girls) would parade along Nevski in their rynok haute couture with their branded bags, carrying their lunch sandwiches, or instead of a proper purse or handbag, obviously wanting give the impression of something they were not and their connection with their consumer aspirations. Now, whatever the brand on the bag, it is used to carry the fruit & spuds!

[RacerX]

Perhaps RacerX's recollections are a tad dated...

A few years ago, it was common for people, particularly women, to buy, from street sellers, carrier bags printed in the logo and design of upmarket brands. These bags were not even replicas of the real thing. They would be carefully looked after and retained for multiple uses. They were not cheap.

Actually Andrew, I believe you are correct - I was recollecting from about 7 years ago.  Now that I think about it, earlier this year when my wife and I visited, I don't recall seeiing this charming bit of the past.  To be honest, I didn't notice the girls so much on this last visit - which I think is a good sign, too :dude:

[al-c]

I went with the most popular item here, #5.  There are so many beautiful women there that I had a hard time maintaining eye contact with the one women I was talking to in the park at any particular time, with all of these "eye magnets" walking around.

Most of what I saw there met my expectations, such as the Soviet style drab apartment buildings and the low speed that people serving you worked at.  I just kept saying to myself "You are not in New York, so just be patient".

The fixed police checkpoints on the highway were a bit of a trip, as was the practice of not passing a police officer on the road until you are waved on, but I got used to that rather quickly.

The lack of air conditioning in the hotel was a total surprise, but that was in Novosibirsk.  The one in Moscow had it, but it was 3X the price of the one in Novosibirsk.

I did not find most of the service people rude.  Most of them went out of their way to help me.  I did find a real winner, though, in the currency exchange in Novosibirsk, a short stocky lady in her 50s or so who said two words:  PASSPORT when I handed her the U.S. dollars to be exchanged, and COUNT when she handed me back the rubles.

 

[KenC]

I voted for #15. Architecture.  Both good (Red Square) and bad (drab Soviet style housing projects) caught my eye.  But the biggest suprise for me was the similarities. The more time I spent there the more I realised that people are just people.

KenC