Ukraine Changes Leadership..Who Will It Be?

[Boethius]

Culture evolves over time.  Less than 0.5% of Ukraine's population is from either Africa or Vietnam, and most of those are students or illegals, not citizens.

Polish culture is not as intertwined with Ukrainian culture because, through the ages, it is generally the elite that move culture forward.  Tsarist Russia recognized Ukraine's nobility as its equal.  Poland did not.  You also are likely unaware of the huge impact Judaism had on Ukrainian culture (since, until the Bolshevik Revolution, Jews were restricted in their ability to live in Russia proper).

Have you read Gogol?   Listened to a Tchaikovsky symphony?  Read Babel?

Honestly, kiev, you don't really strike me as a guy who knows much about culture beyond pop culture.  

Ukrainian will still be taught in schools, because that's what the population generally wants.  It will also remain the language of government.  I do business in Ukraine, and I can tell you that all documents and laws are in Ukrainian, every official document is in Ukrainian, but the language of business is still Russian.  This is because of the age of most of those making the deals.  As new generations come up, this will change as well.  

[Shadow]

While I have no direct part in this, I see it as useless to try and remove Russian language from Ukraine.
There are numerous ethnic Russians living, Russia is the largest rade partner, and will probably remain so for the nearest future.
Instead of making progress by allowing a double language, there has been a tendency to divide the people. Payback seems to be more important as making Ukraine a country for everyone who lives there.

[Boethius]

I don't think there is any attempt to "remove" Russian, Shadow.  Were that the case, there would be no Russian language media in Ukraine.

On independence, Ukrainian was made the official language of the state.  In Soviet times, Ukrainians could, by law, demand official documents in Ukrainian, but it was "discouraged" and Ukraine was derided as a "hick language".  This attitude still persists among ethnic Russians, which is why, I suspect, you note the attitude displayed here by kievstar.  The funny thing is that still, there is no unique "Russian" or "Ukrainian" culture, as they are still both "Sovietized" cultures, and that is the commonality.  Further, if one looks at, say, pop stars, you will see a lot of crossover.  Ukrainian artists are popular in Russia, and vice versa.

Even in Soviet times, Ukrainians could attend Ukrainian language schools, and in rural areas, the populations speak Ukrainian, not Russian.  That's pretty universal, even in Eastern Ukraine.  In fact, there are large swaths of rural Russia where the population speaks Ukrainian.  The Kuban boasts the best Ukrainian choirs in the world to this day.

Without going into the 19th century, I will state that there have always been waves of "Ukrainization" - in the 1920's, in the late 1950's to mid 1960's, and in the mid 1980's, followed by arrest and suppression (even during Gorbachev's time).

In Western Ukraine, the population never spoke Russian so, in the late 1960's, after a massive wave of dissident arrests and show trials, huge numbers of ethnic Russians were settled in the cities to Russify them.  After the collapse of the USSR, most of those ethnic Russians moved back to Russia.  People demanded the right to speak in their own language.  Some Russians may view it as a rejection of their language, but that is not the case.  I will also state that in Ukraine, you will rarely hear pure Russian spoken, unless the speaker is a native Russian.  It is almost universally surzhik.  

[Shadow]

I don't think there is any attempt to "remove" Russian, Shadow.  Were that the case, there would be no Russian language media in Ukraine.

On independence, Ukrainian was made the official language of the state.  In Soviet times, Ukrainians could, by law, demand official documents in Ukrainian, but it was "discouraged" and Ukraine was derided as a "hick language".  This attitude still persists among ethnic Russians, which is why, I suspect, you note the attitude displayed here by kievstar.  

It might be 'anti-Ukrainian propaganda' however do you not think that the ethnic Russians should be able to get official documents in their language if requested, even if it is 'discouraged', or get prescriptions of medicines ih Russian ?

This is what I see as payback, where to let Russian be a second 'official' language would solve many problems. As far as Ukrainian being a 'hick' language, this come from the fact that the language which is spoken in the villages in Russia is quite similar.

When I hear South-African speaking their version of Dutch I do think of a farmer language as well, so it nothing more than a natural thing.

[Boethius]

It might be 'anti-Ukrainian propaganda' however do you not think that the ethnic Russians should be able to get official documents in their language if requested, even if it is 'discouraged', or get prescriptions of medicines ih Russian ?

Can Ukrainians, who are the largest ethnic minority in Russia, and who, by EU standards, would be entitled to minority language rights, get official documents or prescriptions in Ukrainian?

As far as Ukrainian being a 'hick' language, this come from the fact that the language which is spoken in the villages in Russia is quite similar.

Uh, no, it is not.  The languages are linguistically close, but someone from rural Central Russia speaks a language far different from someone from Ivano-Frankivsk.  A Ukrainian speaker in Ivano-Frankivsk will speak the same language as a Ukrainian speaker from Poltava, albeit with different accents.

When I hear South-African speaking their version of Dutch I do think of a farmer language as well, so it nothing more than a natural thing.

No offense, but this is just appalling ignorance.  Ukraine is not a language of "farmers".  How much Ukrainian literature have you read?  

Afrikaaners is a Dutch language, modified over time in the same manner Québécois French differs from French spoken in France.  Ukrainian and Russian, on the other hand, are distinct languages, just as German and Dutch are distinct.  The latter would be a better comparison.  Do you have the same thoughts when you hear a Berliner?

[Shadow]

Can Ukrainians, who are the largest ethnic minority in Russia, and who, by EU standards, would be entitled to minority language rights, get official documents or prescriptions in Ukrainian?

Are they taught to speak and read only Ukrainian or might they have education to read Russian ?

Uh, no, it is not.  The languages are linguistically close, but someone from rural Central Russia speaks a language far different from someone from Ivano-Frankivsk.  A Ukrainian speaker in Ivano-Frankivsk will speak the same language as a Ukrainian speaker from Poltava, albeit with different accents.

If it is liguistically close, that means it sounds alike. While it may be different in many points, its the sound that makes the impression.
 

No offense, but this is just appalling ignorance.  Ukraine is not a language of "farmers".  How much Ukrainian literature have you read?  

I do not claim Ukrainian to be a language of 'farmers', you claim yourself it is labeled a 'hick' language so do not take offense at my posting a languages *sounds* like a farmers language.

Afrikaaners is a Dutch language, modified over time in the same manner Québécois French differs from French spoken in France.  Ukrainian and Russian, on the other hand, are distinct languages, just as German and Dutch are distinct.  The latter would be a better comparison.  Do you have the same thoughts when you hear a Berliner?

Afrikaans is an independent laguange, with its own structure and grammar.
Could you please determine at which time the Russian and Ukrainian languages diverted, as they stem from equal origins ?

[Boethius]

Are they taught to speak and read only Ukrainian or might they have education to read Russian ?

There are Russian language schools in Ukraine.

If it is liguistically close, that means it sounds alike. While it may be different in many points, its the sound that makes the impression.

The "sound" of Ukrainian is very different from the "sound" of Russian in Central Russia.  But then, the "sound" of Russian in St. Petersburg is different from the "sound" of Russian in Moscow.  The former is much more pleasing to my ear.

 I do not claim Ukrainian to be a language of 'farmers', you claim yourself it is labeled a 'hick' language so do not take offense at my posting a languages *sounds* like a farmers language.

No, I posted that in Soviet times, when policies of Russification were put into play, Ukrainian was portrayed as a hick language.   The purpose?  To wipe out the language.

Afrikaans is an independent laguange, with its own structure and grammar.
Could you please determine at which time the Russian and Ukrainian languages diverted, as they stem from equal origins ?

By the 17th century, the languages were distinct.  The differences began occurring after the break up of Kiev Rus.

[kievstar]

Boethius you very well know that majority of the East speaks Russian and does not want Ukraine language - including villages. When was the last time you spent more than 4 days in a row in Kharkov and Donetsk regions?

You also know that is was this past decade that Ukrainian became the official language over Russian for official documents. You also know that most politicans in Eastern Ukraine do not speak good Ukrainian language and the reason the new president would not debate Yulia this past month as he does not know the Ukraine language well enough to debate.  Imagine that - the President of Ukraine can not debate in the official language of the country.

Boethius I do not claim to be an expert on everything but you come across in your posts that your words are gospel. But what I have posted above is true hard facts.

Russian speaking people voted and it was the East and South which won the election.  Not your friends in Kiev and Western Ukraine. 

[Boethius]

Boethius you very well know that majority of the East speaks Russian and does not want Ukraine language - including villages. When was the last time you spent more than 4 days in a row in Kharkov and Donetsk regions?

Khakhiv and Donetsk were always "Russian" cities, Kharkhiv going back to the Russian Empire.  Donetsk is a working class town that has a large population of Russians who emigrated in Soviet times.  But you're wrong about the countryside.  Even these two oblasts, in the last census, Donetsk was only a little over one third ethnically Russian, Kharkhiv oblast, about 26%.  Ethnic Ukrainians tend to list Ukrainian as their mother tongue - on the last census, it was about 68%.

You also know that is was this past decade that Ukrainian became the official language over Russian for official documents.

Actually, that happened earlier than a decade ago, when the Constitution was passed, which is about five years after Ukraine's independence.

You also know that most politicans in Eastern Ukraine do not speak good Ukrainian language and the reason the new president would not debate Yulia this past month as he does not know the Ukraine language well enough to debate.  Imagine that - the President of Ukraine can not debate in the official language of the country.

Neither could Kuchma, who is an ethnic Ukrainian and could speak Ukrainian in his youth.  Tymoshenko, who is not an ethnic Ukrainian, can't speak Ukrainian either.  But, so what?

Boethius I do not claim to be an expert on everything but you come across in your posts that your words are gospel. But what I have posted above is true hard facts.

You can disagree, and I don't care.  However, I am presenting facts, readily verifiable, not opinion.  

Russian speaking people voted and it was the East and South which won the election.  Not your friends in Kiev and Western Ukraine.  

Who said they were "my friends"?  I deal in reality.  Those same voter blocs supported Yanukovich in the last presidential election, and I don't think you can know who voted for him by oblast, as those results are not yet finalized.

You will also note on page 1 of this thread that I predicted Yanukovich would win.  He was the least evil of three bad choices.

[kievstar]

In my past in Ukraine I did political consulting work so I know a little about voting trends in Ukraine.  Do not look at ancestry as that is misleading.  Yulia can speak very good Ukrainian language she studies it all the time.  But when she was 25 years old could speak very little. Yulia got less than 35% of the East in this election. 

What will be interesting in this election if they publish the results in the East for people under 25 who they voted for and 25-35.  I think Yulia will have more than 50% here in 25 and probably 25 to 35 as well, if not there was voter fraud. 

Regarding Ukraine language being official language I know 4 years ago most documents were still being done only in Russian and people ignored the law.  The former President put an end to it.  I know as it impacted me when I lived there. 

[Boethius]

The first contract I negotiated with the Ukrainian government was during Kuchma's presidency. long before the Orange Revolution.  I have a photo of him signing that contract, with the negotiation team (both sides) behind him.  All the documents were in Ukrainian, and not at our team's request. 

I've heard Tymoshenko's Ukrainian.  It is not fluent.  She can speak from a written speech, but not spontaneously.  I could give a speech in French were it written for me, but I could not speak it spontaneously.

[kievstar]

Tymo is a non native speaker of Ukrainian language so she is not ever going to sound like a native speaker or fluent.  She does debates but not hard when majority of the politicians speak little Ukrainian. 

The new President made promises during the election to bring back the Russian language.  Something that Yulia could not promise or lose her Western voters.  But the bulk of the population of Ukraine is in the East and South. 

The only thing for certain is that Nato and EU are out.  Who knows what will happen on language but currently less than 6% of schools are Russian speaking and 10 years ago it was more than 40%. 

[Boethius]

Tymoshenko can't form a normal sentence in Ukrainian spontaneously.  That is not merely a non native speaker issue.  It's a fluency issue.

The only thing for certain is that Nato and EU are out.  Who knows what will happen on language but currently less than 6% of schools are Russian speaking and 10 years ago it was more than 40%.  

True, but the EU has always put major roadblocks before Ukraine.  The majority of Ukrainians, even during Yushchenko's tenure, did not support NATO membership, and yeah, I thought it was stupid.  I think the turning point came on Obama's election.

So have you been following all the scandals around Kateryna Yushchenko?

[OlgaH]

Can Ukrainians, who are the largest ethnic minority in Russia, and who, by EU standards, would be entitled to minority language rights, get official documents or prescriptions in Ukrainian?

According to the census 2002 the largest ethnic minority in Russia is Tatars - 3,8%, Ukrainians are the second largest ethnic minority - 2%.   The next All-Russia census will take place in October of 2010. Would be really interesting to know about the changes.

[kievstar]

Not aware of the Kateryna Yushchenko scandals.  

[Boethius]

According to the census 2002 the largest ethnic minority in Russia is Tatars - 3,8%, Ukrainians are the second largest ethnic minority - 2%.   The next All-Russia census will take place in October of 2010. Would be really interesting to know about the changes.

I think you will find the Ukrainian population has dropped, as they claim they face prejudice and can assimilate quite easily.  I don't buy the 2% - the Ukrainian population of Russia, if the census information is accurate, dropped by about than 1.4 million in 13 years.  Given Ukrainian immigration (both legal and illegal), that is difficult to believe.

[OlgaH]

I think you will find the Ukrainian population has dropped, as they claim they face prejudice and can assimilate quite easily...

Russian population also has dropped.

In 1989 the number of Ukrainians living in Russia was 4, 362 872 (2,9%), Tatars - 5, 522 056 (3,7%).

Russians in 1989 - 119, 865 946 (81,5%) in 2002 - 115, 889 107 (79,3%)

All population in 1989 was 147, 021 869 and in 2002 - 146, 166 731

The population of such ethnic group as Abazin, Abkhaz, Avar, Azerbaijan, Armenian, Kazakh and many other including Americans   increased to 2002.  

[Boethius]

Muslim populations have higher birth rates.

Two million Ukrainian citizens also work in Russia illegally.  The next highest number was 500,000, in Poland, but most of those have returned from Poland, because of the economic downturn.

[OlgaH]

Two million Ukrainian citizens also work in Russia illegally. 

Honestly, I will not be surprised.

[Boethius]

That's an "official" Ukrainian statistic.  It could even be higher.  It increased a lot in the last three years.

[OlgaH]

Muslim populations have higher birth rates.

Plus migration process.

[tfcrew]

No surprise....

Ukraine's defeated presidential election candidate Yulia Tymoshenko will challenge results of the bitterly contested polls, aides said Tuesday, rejecting calls on her to ease tensions by conceding defeat.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=tymoshenko-to-challenge-ukraine-vote-results-2010-02-09

And what is up with this Yulia hair-doo?
It never changes from that Heidi look. 

[Boethius]

It is to be closer to the people, tf!  (a hairpiece, BTW)

[OlgaH]

I think "We have all the evidence to prove" sounds more persuasive than "We will do everything to prove"

[OlgaH]

It is to be closer to the people, tf!  (a hairpiece, BTW)

Do you think it would help?   (just a joke)