Red Flag perhaps??

[Shadow]

Before, all the more reason for her not to nutt up on me.

I'm not going to fly to Russia if I'm just the guy that happens to be on her schedule for the week, or in the least, I would like to know that ahead of time.

And how exactly will you know this ? Because sh told you that she is living like a nun ? 

[berkough]

Lol, no, but if she has enough tact to answer the way that I want, then I know how to play it.

[Shadow]

Lol, no, but if she has enough tact to answer the way that I want, then I know how to play it.

Just for you to know, I passed the question by Mrs Shadow last night. Her answer : I would just not write him back at all.

[facetrock]

Matty and Berkough.. I think you should ask all the women how many men they are writing to that you communicate with. I would go so far as to ask them if they are currently dating any local men too. If this works, go for the big question that is really on your mind.
" When was the last time you were laid."

Guys, your just penpals with these women. Dont pry til you actually meet.

Have any girls asked you how many women you are writing too? In over 5 years of writing I have never had that question asked.

Now if for some reason you have this silly urge to spill your guts and tell them you are writing to 3 or 4 or 5, you lose, and if you honestly say no one else but her, you lose again. Remember, no matter what she tells you after you confess you lose. Think about that for awhile. Let me know when you figure out why you lose both ways. Thats your homework.

Class dismissed

 

[MattyB4]

Oh great teacher facetrock...yawn

i get asked that question all the time, and its quite common for a lady to hint at the question using an indirect "i bet you say that to all the ladies" kind of comment.
Penpals maybe, but if you meet on a dating site, or you both know that you are looking for a partner, and that you are hoping to get to know them better, then there is an expectation. The fact that Ber, was going to fly to meet this girl in future, and she was fully aware of this, gives him the absolute right to want to know that he is at least in some way a special case and not just some guy on a list of email adresses.
All of this, talk of other women saying they wouldnt have replied or saying that its not surpriseing that she got defensive is a load of over-sensitive, over-cautious bull crap. And its clear that people have been taking this in the wrong context. Its not like the guy interrogated her with a flash light and accused her of "Cheating", all he did was innocently as if she was writing to other men, and if she had been genuine, and had nothing to hide, she would have simply answered the question. Trying to insult B and make him feel like an idiot for doing something completely normal and that he is justified in doing, is just proof as to the reason so many people here are single and having trouble with the girls they do meet. Saying you have been writing for 5 years and "Know the score" is hardly something to be proud of, well done you've been writing emails to women across the world for 5 years and still havent gotten anywhere, congratulations.

Go back to class, you clearly dismissed yourself long before you learned anything

[Shadow]

The fact that Ber, was going to fly to meet this girl in future, and she was fully aware of this, gives him the absolute right to want to know that he is at least in some way a special case and not just some guy on a list of email adresses.

The only way he will be a special case is if he tells : "I will be making a trip next month, how much time can you spend with me ?".
That will not only get the answer he wants to hear, but also indicate if she is really interested.

Until the time you make a trip you are just some guy in a list that is writing. If you do not want to be, its up to you to be something special, not up to her.

[MattyB4]

You forget the key issue here, its not that he asked, its how she reacted.
Had she really been offended by the question she would have asked him what made him ask the question. And had she genuinely wanted to meet him, and lets face it, you dont invite a complete stranger to visit from half way round the globe unless there is at least some connection, if this was the case, she certainly wouldnt have just said what is effectively "Fine, get lost"
We have debated more then enough about whether or not he was right to ask, and there will always be a difference of opinion on the matter, different social skills required for different cultures. But there is no denying, that she over reacted, and sad as it is to say, pretty clearly wasnt that interested, and based on how easily she jumped on the defensive, i would say her motives were questionable.
I may not be close friends with anyone here, but i still know when a guy needs a bit of a chin up, and certainly doesnt need to be called a moron by so called "Veterans" of the RW game. i know for a fact that there are guys here who have even less success but manage to maintain a rep just by being a big mouth.

[Daveman]

Think about how your question appeared to her. The disclaimer you stated about
not wanting details was beside the point in her eyes - you were probing a personal
facet of her life that she deemed an intrusion.

Call her ultra-sensitive, or whatever - but the fact is, yours was a pretty bizarre
question to a lady you barely knew. You might want to reconsider how "fair" it was
considering you still have not had a cup of tea together.

Should the two of you get past this item, she will be watching closely for further
evidence of what she perceived to be insecurity.

Absolutely agree with this.  You have to look at it that pretty much all options are open until after you meet and after you develop a relationship in person. 

Of course she will be writing to others, at least at this early stage of communication. But, you're the best so the others don't matter.  She could also vanish as quickly as she appeared, so don't allow your emotions to become involved at all until after you actually meet.  At this point the woman is a dream projection and a pen pal, nothing more.

[Shadow]

You forget the key issue here, its not that he asked, its how she reacted.
Had she really been offended by the question she would have asked him what made him ask the question. And had she genuinely wanted to meet him, and lets face it, you dont invite a complete stranger to visit from half way round the globe unless there is at least some connection, if this was the case, she certainly wouldnt have just said what is effectively "Fine, get lost"
We have debated more then enough about whether or not he was right to ask, and there will always be a difference of opinion on the matter, different social skills required for different cultures. But there is no denying, that she over reacted, and sad as it is to say, pretty clearly wasnt that interested, and based on how easily she jumped on the defensive, i would say her motives were questionable.
I may not be close friends with anyone here, but i still know when a guy needs a bit of a chin up, and certainly doesnt need to be called a moron by so called "Veterans" of the RW game. i know for a fact that there are guys here who have even less success but manage to maintain a rep just by being a big mouth.

Matty, with all your current experience you still have to learn writing to a "real" RW.
While the answer may have been a good indication the two are not compatible, it was triggered by the question.
As noted I asked MrsShadow who would just block the email of any guy asking such question, and you can believe me she is not the most temperamental person around.

My reaction is not to put down the berkugh or to make him look stupid. The reaction is to make him understand that there are things that can get you in to instant trouble, regardless of how innocent it may seem to you.

In matters of RW, education comes often at the cost of losing contacts by making mistakes. You can choose to repeat your mistakes expecting different outcome, or to learn from them and accept the opinion of both RW and veterans.

[facetrock]

  Matty, I dont think a guy that went to see a video chat girl from anastasia should be chastising anyone over a lack of success.
I was almost married once to a real woman, a very good woman. Not a figment of my imagination like video girls.

  So far in my eyes all you have accomplished is falling in love with a picture of a video girl and spending a large amount of money talking on chat with the biggest scam agency in the world.

Lets see, was it you that said you chatted with one girl for six months and then you suggested a meeting but she thought that was too soon. Correct me if I am wrong.

Even when we tried to warn you, you still would not believe it.
  I and others spent alot of time in chat trying to convince you to bail out and we did get through to you a little. But your  fantasy was way to strong for us to complety convince you.

 But now we are just a bunch of loud mouthed unsuccessful veterens according to you. In the end your trip for the most part turned into a big waste of time and money and I dont think you learned much at all.

The truth is Matty you were infatuated with the video girl even after she blew you off the first day. Had to meet her one more time to just make sure the rejection was complete though.

And lets not forget that you didnt even have her phone number, email address, last name or address before you went to see her. You did however decide to get it after spending an afternoon in chat with the loud mouthed unsuccessful veterans.

So in the end Matty I dont know sh!t. You are the man with the plan and I think you should go at this however you want.

Your right, I cant teach anything to a world traveler like you who posted a whole list of things to watch out for before he made his first trip Ukraine. I think you can update your list now Matty, theres a few more things for you to add.

[MattyB4]

thats a shame, i was expecting better.

If you dont want me to chastise you for no success, then dont step into the firing line with arrogant comments and stuff like "Class dismissed"
Yes i went to meet a video girl, who was real, but her intentions were not, she tried to rip me off, and failed, and i met a nice girl who i am not exchanging letters with, which is easier because we already met, had a good couple of dates, and like each other. So yes i agree my one and only trip to the Ukraine was a complete failure, and far worse then spending so much time trying to find someone. Well done you ALMOST got married, thats something i can say on my part too. I almost married a girl in my own country, but the key word is ALMOST, which makes it in no way impressive or a success story.
Its far too easy to be a wise guy on a forum, where almost nobody knows you for real. And throwing crap at people when they need friendly advice just makes you look like a jack ass. All the time i was planning my trip, and worrying, people offering me friendly advice and trying to put me at ease, except one person, who was far too busy being an arrogant ass hole coming out with "You gonna get smoked" and other helpful bs.
SO excuse me if i dont buy into your little "Face is always right and knows all" delusion. Im trying to help Ber by giving him friendly and contructive advice, and he doesnt need some idiot chirping off with "one day you will know what i know, and you will see that you are wrong" which is just a lame way of arguing without being able to justify your point.

Enjoy the loneliness that comes from believing your own hype

[Faux Pas]

Oh great teacher facetrock...yawn

i get asked that question all the time, and its quite common for a lady to hint at the question using an indirect "i bet you say that to all the ladies" kind of comment.

Let her hint away if in fact that is what she is doing. That is a question, you are (as is she) completely within your rights of ettiquette to evade and avoid. At this juncture you are only introduced pen pals and a long stretch from pillow talk.

Penpals maybe, but if you meet on a dating site, or you both know that you are looking for a partner, and that you are hoping to get to know them better, then there is an expectation. The fact that Ber, was going to fly to meet this girl in future, and she was fully aware of this, gives him the absolute right to want to know that he is at least in some way a special case and not just some guy on a list of email adresses.

So is it at this point you are fully within your rights to demand nude photos and verified records of her menstral cycle so that you can plan your trip accordingly? Matty, the question of whom and how many one is writing is an intrusive one and because one happens to be writing to a lady doesn't give them permission to intrude. There are no "absolutes" in this pursuit. A pen pal owes you absolutely nothing. A right of privacy is an internationally accepted concept in dating circles.

All of this, talk of other women saying they wouldnt have replied or saying that its not surpriseing that she got defensive is a load of over-sensitive, over-cautious bull crap. And its clear that people have been taking this in the wrong context. Its not like the guy interrogated her with a flash light and accused her of "Cheating", all he did was innocently as if she was writing to other men, and if she had been genuine, and had nothing to hide, she would have simply answered the question.

It's not BS and as I stated above it can easily be perceived as an invasion of privacy. If you are on the receiving end it is a clear sign and flag to run and throw rocks as this person behaves in such a way in early correspondence a personal meeting would be a waste of time.

Trying to insult B and make him feel like an idiot for doing something completely normal and that he is justified in doing, is just proof as to the reason so many people here are single and having trouble with the girls they do meet. Saying you have been writing for 5 years and "Know the score" is hardly something to be proud of, well done you've been writing emails to women across the world for 5 years and still havent gotten anywhere, congratulations.

Go back to class, you clearly dismissed yourself long before you learned anything

I didn't read anyone trying to insult Berkough. Some just attempting, as I am now, to make sure he and now you understand, this isn't exactly the same as picking up bimbos at your local club with face to face pick up lines. You are questioning facet's advice because he is been in the pursuit for 5 years quite honestly Matty, he is light years beyond you. Berkough just made 1 fatal mistake with 1 woman. It seems you have fatal and flawed thinking. FWIW

[MattyB4]

im not expecting anyone to leap to my aid, Face has been here longer then me, and regardless of how much exprerience a person has in real life encounters, how long a person mouths off on a forum seems to be a far more prevalant detail in this situation. If you come at me sideways, (as face has done from the very beginning) or make some arrogant comment, then i will throw it right back.
Im not going to start throwing crap at anyone who disagree with me, if they can back up their opinion with a valid and cogent argument, which to some degree you have done FP. I may disagree with your opinion of myself and Face, but that is solely your opinion and you are more then entitled to it.
Regarding him being light years beyond me, thats pure speculation, you know very little about me, other then the information which i have decided to impart on this forum, and the same goes for face. you only know things that he wants you to know.
I am a firm supporter of the WOVO camp, because in my humble opinion, writing intimate things to a person, is no different by email then it is face to face. The intent is still the same, and the betrayal is just the same if it turns out to be a lie. Had this lady been genuinely interested in Ber, and they had exchanged emails to the point that he felt close enough to her that he wanted to go and meet her, then asking innocently if other guys were writing to her is perfectly normal. This articular topic can be argued with valid enough points on either side, and nobody will concede. But its pretty clear that regardless of your opinion of Ber himself, she DID over react, and if nothing else came out of him asking the question, at least he knows she is shit nuts.

as for my reaction to facetrok, and my opinion of him, as always i will remain terminally indifferent. But when someone has been looking for 5 years with no success, and thinks he is "Schooling" me, i feel the need to point out that he is the last person i would regard as a useful teacher. Being able to spot scams or knowing something about russian culture is fine, but women are women, and knowing how to handle them is a completely different kettle of fish, and one ive been boiling for just as long, if not longer then other people. So simply dont try to tell me how to talk to a woman because i can garauntee if you wanted to compare "scores" you had better be pretty confident in your numbers.

[Daveman]

Opinions vary and often clash.  That's how we get diamonds here.  Drop the personal insults and the difference of opinion here can be enlightening.

[facetrock]

Hey what can I say.... I have been humbled
Matty, you really know how to handle women. You did a great job in Ukraine with the video chat girl.

[Misha]

So I see that you just try to find the reason to say good-bye.

Any thoughts opinions or nasty comments?

Well, as others, I wouldn't have asked the question.

However, to me, the answer betrays a lack of self-confidence in the woman. If I had asked the question to my wife, way back when, I am sure she would have answered something like this: "I am a beautiful woman. Of course, men are writing to me." Women with a great deal of confidence won't worry that a man is trying to find a reason to say good-bye as they believe a man would have to be a fool to do so  So, my spin is that the woman may expect rejection and may lack in self-confidence. But, as everything else, that is just my humble opinion and you are free to do with it what you will. 

[GQBlues]

Well Matthew, this is Matt and I agree with MattyB. Unless this was a case of you leaving out some other tidbits in your email to her, asking if she's writing to other men is as safe a question as women asking men if they are writing to other women.

Drop the biyatch and be done with it. Women ask. If and when they do, tell. If by chance you stood to being honest with these women and they still ditch you for being so. Move on. They're not much of a loss. I could care less what her reasons may be for reacting that way.

Her reaction and behavior was uncalled for. NEVER ever mistake bad behavior to cultural differences. I am beginning to believe AMs really are the antithesis to RMs. Never ever be a PW to any of these women - Never. Let them wig-out on their own time.

[SMS60]

Drop the biyatch and be done with it.

If you are referring to the OP, he is too late. She already dumped his azz for being an insecure puppy dog.

[Shadow]

Never ever be a PW to any of these women - Never. Let them wig-out on their own time.

A PW guy is one who has to make an estimate of his chances before making an effort.  

[Misha]

If you are referring to the OP, he is too late. She already dumped his azz for being an insecure puppy dog.

No, IMHO she is simply waiting for him to come back and apologize 

I agree with GQ, in my reading of what she wrote, she is coming across as a drama queen. Always a good reason to run and seek solace elsewhere

[facetrock]

  GQ. Its very possible she is a bitch and I agree with you should never write off bitchyness as a cultural difference or any other bad behavoir.
   But at the penpal stage I dont think its appropiate to ask. You should assume they are writing others as they assume you are. Kind of like dont ask dont tell.
   Plenty time to talk about it when you meet. Eventually the closer you get to the girl the subject will come up and once there is a connection between the both of you its easier and less threatening.
  
   But I dont agree with Matty that intimate emails are the same as face to face talks. Not even close in my opinion. Not even phone calls. Face to face is a whole nother ball game.

   And becoming PWed is not a good thing with any woman

[GQBlues]

Facetrock- (pronounced: facet-rock. I used to read that as face-trock until CG amusingly pointed that to me  )

It's far too early to be compromising actions by anyone on either side. He doesn't know her from Eve nor she from Adam. What I see here is the OP believing what he asked her was a harmless question and he was confronted with such a reaction. It's far too early in the juncture to have this much drama with anyone. Why invest time, energy and angst into someone this unreasonable? No one should be second-guessing themselves in this pursuit at any juncture not least of which at the very beginning. This is exactly where so many get scammed and/or fall prey to some of these women. They second-guess their way all the way to Timbukto and making excuses all the while. When they get to the next level, the women already had them eating out of their silly hands, and when snapped - they jump.

IME, women ask me the question within the first two emails I used to get. I never once felt they were being intrusive and replied accordingly. To me, this is part of me they need to know and relate to. No one is forced to cater to my whims anymore than I need to cater to theirs. Like minds will find a way to gravitate with one another.

For the OP, stay true to your conviction and never, ever compromise what you believe is right. Once you do, you have betrayed your own instinct and you'll find yourself physt out of luck holding an empty bag more times than not.

I am not putting this thought in your thread to convince you my way is the right way. It was right for me and it always had been all my life. You have an open option to follow your own. If it parallels to mine great - if not; I suggest you always follow your creed.

[RussianWind]

Now if for some reason you have this silly urge to spill your guts and tell them you are writing to 3 or 4 or 5, you lose,

"I don't need someone who doesn't pay all attention to me"

and if you honestly say no one else but her, you lose again.

"I don't believe this BS" 

Remember, no matter what she tells you after you confess you lose. Think about that for awhile. Let me know when you figure out why you lose both ways. Thats your homework.

So what the correct answer would be...? 

[facetrock]

Well in my experience I cant ever remember having anyone ask if I was writing anyone else.
Now if the OPs girl wouldnt have whined and just said " Sorry none of your business" Then do you dump her? Not much drama with a response like that.

What is strange to me that we here advise men to write more than one for a back up plan. Should we be completly honest and say
" Yes I am writing other women in case it doesnt work out then I have someone else to see" We advise this even if they are planning on only seeing one woman. I dont think that would go over to good with any FSU women even if they lied through their teeth and said it was ok.
 
I would bet big money almost all women continue to write other men until the man actually lands on the ground. Especially if they have been promised visits by a few keyboard romeos in the past that never showed. Even while you are there I would be surprised if they dump the other men. Why would they do that anyway? They dont know if its going to work out with you. Its the smart move. As far as you know she could have a man there while you are writing her intimate emails. How would you ever find out?

I accept this arrangement. As far as I am concerned it goes on whether we know it or not. Just another part of the game.

 I am not saying Matty or Berkough should second guess themselves. Why open a can of worms when you are just pen friends?
Why create drama you dont need? If they are adamant about knowing and are always going to ask then there will be some dissapointments and some women will be offended and disappear. Some could be very good women. And the big question is why do they have to know if their pen friend is writing other men? What do you have to gain? Will it make you feel better if they tell you they are writing only you? That screams of a controling and insecure personality to some women.

But maybe the reason I dont get asked is because I write older more mature women who dont have to ask me to know the truth. I dont have to ask them either because I know the truth too.

[facetrock]

RussianWind.. You really dont know the answer to this  
Hey, how many men are you writing to right now?