RWD Commandment #2 - Time to Rethink It?

[Shadow]

I was referring to having an actual woman #2 or #3 as a formal "back up plan" - as in you took the time (and who has that much time anyway?) and spent the energy and the $$ to get to whatever level it takes for you to actually get on a plane and travel 6000 miles to actually meet someone – it takes a LOT for me.  Nothing I've read here has convinced me that those of you who continue to defend this idea (in my context at least) are not just wrong. 

The question you would have to ask yourself here is that if it takes a LOT for you to be willing to get on a plane, does that mean you will be investing such emotion and energy on the #2 and #3 as well ? If not, how useful do you think the backup plan will be ?
You speak of not sitting in desperation, but you run the risk of being in a state where you just found your high investment turned down, and meeting one or two other prospects that you have no investment in. Apart from having some nice company, I sincerely doubt that would work.

If you are going to visit multiple women, invest equal amount of time and emotion in them, and spend equal time visiting them before making a choice of pursuing one, or none. Using the #2 and #3 as 'consolation date' will most likely lead to nothing and waste precious time and hopes for these women.

[GregfromGa]

Spectris, so when are you planning your next trip?  I'm sorry your first trip?  It's pretty easy to sit back and say that we are all wrong about having a back up plan but until you actually come down from the stands and get in the game then you really have no clue. Of course you are entitled to your opinion. So again back to my original question. What is your timetable for going to visit someone? Have you already met someone on this internet in which you speak about?

[Misha]

Spectris, a backup plan as some have mention doesn't necessarily need to be other women to meet.

Exactly. People travel to other countries all the time without the express goal of meeting women. It is called plain old tourism  A backup plan can be a man making a list of all the things he wants to do in Russia or the FSU. It is doing some research, buying one or two travel guides, and planning a trip whereby he can have fun on his own. And, if things work out, he will already have a full itinerary of things to do with a lovely woman accompanying him  Also, she will be very much impressed by a man who knows something about her country and actually knows of nice places to go 

[GregfromGa]

I just don't get why having a backup plan doesn't have to involve meeting another woman. I mean a person is in the business of meeting a potential spouse right? Why would one waste an opportunity to do that with another woman while there? I mean it's not like you are there every month. If I'm going to meet a girl and the wheels come off, I'm not touring churches and WW2 monuments for the next 2 weeks. As much as I appreciate those things, I'm trying to meet another sincere girl with my time while there. I'm just saying why would one waste a trip because things go bad?

[Faux Pas]

I just don't get why having a backup plan doesn't have to involve meeting another woman. I mean a person is in the business of meeting a potential spouse right? Why would one waste an opportunity to do that with another woman while there? I mean it's not like you are there every month. If I'm going to meet a girl and the wheels come off, I'm not touring churches and WW2 monuments for the next 2 weeks. As much as I appreciate those things, I'm trying to meet another sincere girl with my time while there. I'm just saying why would one waste a trip because things go bad?

I agree with you. That would be what "I" would do as well. I suppose I have been rejected enough that it doesn't phase me as much as I have seen it affect some others. Face it Greg, we're not all the same. I tend to dust off my britches, pin my ears back and go for some more of that horse that bucked me.

My point is, no matter what one finds  to occupy and entertain themselves when going to meet a woman 5000 miles away in a strange country, they should prepare themselves to do it. Alone if need be. Life has a way of kicking us in the teeth and one way it does it is with a woman we've pined for. Disappointment in this pursuit is a very high probability. Before pissing away what could be a grand vacation and sulking alone in some flat or drowning sorrows in a beer at some Pub, prepare for the worst and expect the best I say.

[Jumper]

Wow, I just sort of gave up on this thread pretty much instantly after the first comments.  I was writing seriously about having a real 2nd (or 3rd or...) woman in queue - not worrying about how to spend time if I was unexpectedly found alone w/ time on my hands.  Not even sure what to say to that actually - would anyone REALLY even consider just sitting in desperation, or just sitting period, if Plan A didn't work out?  I hope not. <sigh>

I was referring to having an actual woman #2 or #3 as a formal "back up plan" - as in you took the time (and who has that much time anyway?) and spent the energy and the $$ to get to whatever level it takes for you to actually get on a plane and travel 6000 miles to actually meet someone – it takes a LOT for me.  Nothing I've read here has convinced me that those of you who continue to defend this idea (in my context at least) are not just wrong.  And absolutely you can develop relationships w/o meeting in person.  I have Friends, customers and suppliers all over the globe – some I've met and many that I've never met in person, but all are "relationships" in some form (if you are equating “relatonship” with “love” – we are not on the same page).  I’ve communicated with several women in the FSU that arbsolutely genuine, real and interested - none of which is hard to verify btw if you are willing and able to put the effort into it. 

In the pre-internet days when men were apparently working from address lists and agency guides – maybe a BP was appropriate back “in the day” – but its 2010 now.  You (we) are very blessed in that you (we) can fly many places in the world in  right now and just because you (we) are an American Man you can use that as leverage w/ women in most countries in the world – if that’s what you want.  It’s not what I want.

You are simply trying to pigeon hole the "commandment " into something that fits your dispute.
and are changing it o more of a WVMV vs WOVO debate.
 If you want to debate WMVM vs WOVO for the  millionth time here..
just keep in mind not everyone operates the same .
And because they don't want ,EXACTLY, what you want ,wouldn't change  good general common sense advise
 to have  a backup plan.

Please refer to pacifica's . (a RW) thread on WMVM, and see if you find anything wrong with when the shoes on the
other foot?
 
 The commandment you think is outdated by new communication methods,was never intended to state
men should  have in depth communications with women  2 3 and 4.
in case #1 doesn't work out.

if it was intended that way it would state that..

As odd as iot may seem to you ,yes many men have gone over so love struck and sure there was a true romantic relationship developed before meeting that they had no idea what to do when things fell apart in the first ten minutes.
Its happened far more often, than "happily ever after" despite due diligence.
and caused the commandment to be #2 on that list.

For you to come here and decide those men simply dint communicate well enough initially is odd at best.
Men have been going over the to the FSU..for over  a decade..
and every imaginable scenario has occured.
The commandments  i would say are more of  a guideline ..established by their previous success, failures, and experiences
 I certainly broke a few ,and to this day would break them as my comfort level allowed . they arent carved in stone literally.

To think the second one is outdated .. is odd ,its just  good advise
( in the context it was written,without you extrapulating it to mean have in depth woman 2 and 3 set up)  

To be sure , some men put in a year of communication first..
Some may not have. The point is none of us know?
 but we do know the end result .
They should have had a backup plan,or NOT invested themselves totally in a romantic  relationship until one actually existed after meeting.
Others have went,  and the woman and the man both hit it off exactly has they had in correspondence.. perfect!

For you to say that *a  relationship* can develop before a face face to meeting is of course  accurate? No one is disputing that? but define *relationship*?

I like the "it takes a lot for me" line.
and can understand it.
For you ,that's ok? and you should do what suits you best right?
It would also suit many people.

For me it takes a whim..
Why should I conform to your ideal of  the perfect way to start something as unpredictable as a romantic relationship?
When most relationships in the world certainly did not "begin" with some plan or extended communication.

I happen to subscribe to:
boy meets girl, things follow,or they don't.

They can communicate first ,which is great!!
or just meet ,see if their are sparks and communicate after they  both know there is something "there"

In the past they could communicate IN DEPTH,  with letters or carrier pigeon,
later by telegraph and the phone.Only the time of sending receiving was shortened by *email*
and that did not change the dynamic of a  relationship based on communication without meeting.

The only advancement now is video.. which is an improvement.

All the other means are  the same as they have been for a decade at least right?
So you are suggesting that video chat is such a good  improvement asa means of communication that the "rules" are now outdated.

While i agree its  a much better means of communicating ,,.
I still don't think it changes the tone of none face to face of relationships much..
They either gel instantly when first meeting, or they go south quickly.

and that leads back to the commandment.

The only thing actually any different in 2010 is vid chat.
You are really stretching to imply facebook or VK etc etc, is any better form of communication than regular email and phone  in the past..

Perosnally i cant advise a new guy to simply toss aside the guidleines established by others ,
over vid chat.

1.It's still not a real meeting
2. Not every RW has it, or if she does , she may not have a level of english (or him, russian)
 to use it effectively.

Technology is wonderful ! ..I just dont think it lets a couples' due diligence be much more effective than the past forms of communication.

[Misha]

I just don't get why having a backup plan doesn't have to involve meeting another woman.

Quite simple, men who are capable of enjoying themselves alone without having to go sulk in a bar are the type of men who will be IMHO most attractive to women. You would be surprised at how many women you are capable of meeting in Russia when you are simply out, having fun, doing things you enjoy without being obsessed about finding a woman 

[kievstar]

Greg you make a very good point on the purpose of the travel but I think many men are not really serious or not as focused.  They also really do not know what will happen like you say until they have done at least 1 trip.  

You were successful in your search as you were focused.  I like to go back and look at men who came on here 1-2 years ago and thought they had the answers before 1st trip (none of them are married now and many have given up).  I mail some of them for a status update.  I met some of them personally in Kiev.  One thing I noticed is that many really did not want to be married or were really clueless on dating younger women.  

I learn everyday on this board and change my views often (not just about women).  But many men are stubborn.

I think we will learn a lot from the OP and hope he does a trip report.  Unlike others the OP does read a lot.  

[kievstar]

Misha, I agree just being about you will meet women however from Monday to Friday majority of the sincere women are working and you will meet the gold diggers.  Saturday and Sunday many of the women will be busy with friends.  However public transportation can be a good place to meet women. Focus on the train stations and bus depots. 

Expats really have an advantage. 

[groovlstk]

I’ve communicated with several women in the FSU that arbsolutely genuine, real and interested - none of which is hard to verify btw if you are willing and able to put the effort into it. 

You're currently at the most sanatized, fantasy-inducing stage of the search where possibilities seem endless, scammers are easy to weed, and everyone seems genuine and enthusiastic. It's not reality and if you spend enough time at this your opinion will eventually change.

[Shadow]

You're currently at the most sanatized, fantasy-inducing stage of the search where possibilities seem endless, scammers are easy to weed, and everyone seems genuine and enthusiastic. It's not reality and if you spend enough time at this your opinion will eventually change.

Indeed. The possibilies will seem more limited. The rest still is correct.

[myrddin]

You're currently at the most sanatized, fantasy-inducing stage of the search where possibilities seem endless, scammers are easy to weed, and everyone seems genuine and enthusiastic. It's not reality and if you spend enough time at this your opinion will eventually change.

I'd say it is reality - for now.  It is the first stage of a long process.  Just don't let the fantasies get out of hand.   There are a lot of experiences ahead....

While it never hurts to re-examine your initial assumptions, there's a reason those guidelines were raised to the label "Commandments". 

spectris, it will be interesting to see your thoughts after a trip or two.  Good luck!

[Misha]

Misha, I agree just being about you will meet women however from Monday to Friday majority of the sincere women are working and you will meet the gold diggers. 

Sincere women also have interests and holidays  Trust me, there aren't many gold diggers kayaking in the wilds of Russia 

[Shadow]

Sincere women also have interests and holidays   Trust me, there aren't many gold diggers kayaking in the wilds of Russia  

And the gold diggers you will meet there  are not interested in American men.

[kievstar]

Misha, kayaking the wild sounds interesting but lets keep it real.  That would not make a good backup plan or have a high success rate as a 1st choice. 

[Misha]

Misha, kayaking the wild sounds interesting but lets keep it real.  That would not make a good backup plan or have a high success rate as a 1st choice. 

Again, the point I am trying to make is very simple. There is more to Russia than women, and expat hangouts. A man who can enjoys himself and enjoys his life, will invariably find other people who also enjoy life, and if he meets enough such people, he will invariably find women who will be interested in him, and among those women, he will eventually find the one for him. When I was dating, if I had met a woman who had no interests other that finding a man, I would never have pursued her as she would have been dreadfully DULL!

[ECOCKS]

IMO the number of men who have unrealistic expectations is surprisingly high. Lately, I am wondering whether it's just "huMAN nature" or a plausible excuse for failure, necessitating multiple trips to sample th..er, uh, keep on looking for the right woman.

After hearing so many lament that they were scammed or there just wasn't any "chemistry" or whatever, I noticed that people keep making the same mistakes, or at least, performing the same process over and over again. Given the failure rates, it makes me wonder why more don't try to change their game. Most "Change" seems to be geographic rather than tactical or strategic.

As for the expats, yes they date and seem a bit more successful since they have that most precious element, time, on their side. Also, as mentioned above, the circumstances of their meetings, dates and relationships are more normal than many here. They are taking weekend trips with the gal they went out with 2-3 times a week for the last month. Having a beer with friends and other expat couples in their own little social circle, working and, generally, having a life which the girl (and expat) can observe. Since many live together for long periods they have had the chance to see each other in those :normal" conditions. Nothing like sharing a bathroom and seeing her morning face for a few months to know whether you're really going to be compatible.

[GregfromGa]

I'd say it is reality - for now.  It is the first stage of a long process.  Just don't let the fantasies get out of hand.   There are a lot of experiences ahead....

While it never hurts to re-examine your initial assumptions, there's a reason those guidelines were raised to the label "Commandments". 

spectris, it will be interesting to see your thoughts after a trip or two.  Good luck!

Truer words have never been spoken. Let the OP get a trip or two under his belt and then we'll see if his opinion changes. That's why I asked when he was planning his first visit.

[kievstar]

Misha, unless your retired, semi retired, or an expat your not going to have the time to just tour Russia and meet your wife.  Odds are very low.

[Misha]

Misha, unless your retired, semi retired, or an expat your not going to have the time to just tour Russia and meet your wife.  Odds are very low.

Likewise, if you don't like the idea of spending a two-week vacation in Russia or anywhere else in the FSU, then IMHO you should not be looking to marry a RW either 

[kievstar]

So Misha you think a 2 week tour of part of Russia is a good approach to find a wife? I think you should increase that to 2 months for your tour of Russia and kayak the wild approach.

[Misha]

So Misha you think a 2 week tour of part of Russia is a good approach to find a wife? I think you should increase that to 2 months for your tour of Russia and kayak the wild approach.

No, a man can go to Russia to meet with a woman, but he need not be paranoid that things will not out. He can go, meet her, and if things work out, great. If he goes, and it does not work out, he should be able to spend two weeks in Russia doing something that he enjoys without having to go into a tizzy trying to find women to date. There are many wonderful things to do in Russia and if a man can't find anything to do in Russia that would be enjoyable to him (i.e. he does not like the country, the people, the culture, etc...), then IMHO, he should be looking elsewhere for a bride.

[spectris]

Really, not sure how this got so far off-topic, but all I was ever trying to say is that you can (well I can ) get deep enough into a relationship without actually meeting even from even 5,000 miles that having the Back Up Plan w/ another woman demeans both the woman and the potential new relationship.  I'm no stranger to dating (see other thread "Why Try This" if you want my opinion on dating AW), I just ventured here to see if there was another option from what is easily available in the US - I'm assuming that's why ALL of you are here as well - unless you have no option in the US, but that too would be off topic.

I have "met" several woman so far from the FSU (sorry w/ the EU reference earlier) that do seem to have a different perspective on life than the AW I date here.  I've now become close to someone and I want to sincerely give this new relationship a shot.  She is genuine (in that she is who she says she is) plus she was far more wary of me than I was of her initially.  We both did basically a background check on each other before even progressing to video chat.  Neither of us have the time or inclination to have a pen pal or video friend (I'm a single dad, own a business, travel, etc. - she has a pretty high level job by Ukrainian standards, is a single mother and has extended family to care for). 

So after all of this effort, and by effort - I mean TIME and ENERGY - both precious to me.  In fact, I only post here late at night and when I'm out of town as I am now sitting in the airline club waiting on my flight.  To invest this same amount of effort in a Back Up Plan not only seems just basically wrong to me – it would be impossible anyway. And no need to remind me that we haven't "met" yet unless it's important for you to do so – I really do understand that.  However, despite not physically meeting yet, I know more about her already than any woman (or wife) that I ever have at the beginning of a relationship.  Because of my schedule I’m not able to meet her until April, but I’ve made arrangements piggybacking on a business trip and am very much looking forward to it.

So, I guess I have no more opinion to offer here because it is absolutely correct that I have not met her, but I’m fine with the MOWOBUP (Meet One w/o Back Up Plan) and I promise my heart will not be broken if things don’t work out – just disappointed.  At the end of the day, it’s just another trip – but one that seems worthy to me.

 One last question for you guys please – how many of you are happily married to your “back up plan”? 

[BillyB]

 One last question for you guys please – how many of you are happily married to your “back up plan”? 

How about this question. "How many of you are married to the first woman you asked for a date and had your heart set on?"

A guy may have to go through 20 women here or in the FSU before he finds one that's good for him AND willing to marry him. Traveling to the FSU with the intention of marrying a woman you never met is somewhat insane. Fact: An overwhelming majority of guys who get on a plane to visit a RW do not marry a RW ever.

A bunch of guys who married a RW from an agency most likely dated a few agency girls before falling in love with their wife.

[tfcrew]

 
 One last question for you guys please – how many of you are happily married to your “back up plan”? 

Me.
After 10 years, a lot happier than with anyone else before.
What worked out there is that the 'agency' was local.
It was the agency director who met me at the airport.
That is what I would recommend..a personal touch like that.
I suggest locating into Odessa... this time of year especially.