RWD Commandment #2 - Time to Rethink It?

[spectris]

OK, just a stray commnet here, but after my few weeks of exploring this new prospective dating pool of EU women (which seems to be FAR superior to what the US has to offer btw), I can't help but think this Commandment is just fundamentally wrong.  Perhaps in 2006 when it was originally posted it might have had some validity?  But it's 2010 now and from what I've experienced in these past weeks is the women I've communicated with are very technologically savvy (more so than many of my employees sadly) and are very willing to participate in video chat, IM's, even FaceBook if they are interested in you.

So, just curious how do you justify a "backup plan" when you travel half way around the world to meet someone you have developed some relationship with and arguably grown fond enough to now meet?  If I was a woman, I would disregard, out of hand, any man who brought a "list" with him.  This Rule sounds encouraging men to go on an EU "shopping trip" which definitely has it's own appeal with a pocket full of only superficial acquaintances I completely understand.  The mantra of this forum however, seems pretty universally adamant about having only good intentions when meeting these women.  I don't know, but if you are really looking for a serous relationship, I don't think a backup woman is the answer - a no change fee airplane ticket sounds more appropriate.

Seems it might be time to update the "10 Commandments" to "9 Commandments" soon...

[ECOCKS]

Simple, there is no meaningful relationship until you test out that chemistry in a face-to-face meeting.

So, having a backup plane, whether it involves other women you've been talking to, arranging dates on the spot during the remainder of your visit or simply going into tourist mode, beats the heck out of sitting in your room moping around while gnashing your teeth, self-flagellating and donning sackcloth and ashes.

[Misha]

As Ed says, a back-up plan can be bringing a copy of the Lonely Planet guide with you and simply being a tourist. There are many wonderful things to see in the FSU.

[groovlstk]

I don't know, but if you are really looking for a serous relationship, I don't think a backup woman is the answer - a no change fee airplane ticket sounds more appropriate.

Seems it might be time to update the "10 Commandments" to "9 Commandments" soon...

I propose something different: How about the champions of WMVM, WOVO, or whatever, quit moralizing about why their intent is more pure or fruitful than those who do WOVM or whatever the acronym of the day is, and simply choose the dating strategy they are most comfortable with?

There is no moral issue here.

[Daveman]

Yeah, it's great to have a WOVO work out. I've yet to have an initial meeting fail, however, a BU plan doesn't necessarily need to be a list of other ladies. It can be as simple as a couple of agency numbers in the area, or other travel plans, whatever. But, sometimes a WOVO does crash and burn miserably within seconds of meeting.  Much better to be prepared and ready with the next steps than to sit around in a hotel or apartment scrambling to figure out what to do, or worse, waste a trip completely. 

[SANDRO43]

So, just curious how do you justify a "backup plan" when you travel half way around the world to meet someone you have developed some relationship with and arguably grown fond enough to now meet?

Because, as Sun Tzu

so aptly stated in his authoritative opus The Art of War, defecation happens , to which Robert Burns

later added:

The best laid schemes o' mice an' men
Gang aft agley,
An' lea'e us nought but grief an' pain,
For promis'd joy!

[Dave13]

A backup plan could just be some contact information, also its not a real relationships until you meet!

[kievstar]

Not having a backup plan is not smart.  Just having addresses of agencies is helpful.

You can always VOWO and than if it does not work walk into agency and open the catalog and have a blind date.   

[tfcrew]

I can't help but think this Commandment is just fundamentally wrong.  Perhaps in 2006 when it was originally posted it might have had some validity?  
So, just curious how do you justify a "backup plan" when you travel half way around the world to meet someone you have developed some relationship with and arguably grown fond enough to now meet?  If I was a woman, I would disregard, out of hand, any man who brought a "list" with him.  

There is more 'validity' now than ever.
A 'list' is not necessarily what is meant there.
It would be prudent to have some kind of idea of what you would do if you were simply not met with the expectation you had when you left.
Or just not met at all!
Standing around and feeling like a shmuck is no fun no matter where you go.
In any event................................
Good luck
Karl

[Shadow]

Do you have  to plan everything ?

[Dave13]

My last visit to Russia in 2007, at the airport, watching a very upset AM walking around holding some flowers
and no one showed up to meet him. 

[viking]

Those 10 commandments are there for a reason. They were compiled by the thousands of men who went before you. And they work very well. If you think it is necessary to challenge them or change them, perhaps it is better that you do not begin this journey.

[Shadow]

Has anyone except me ever used the woman he was visiting as backup plan ?
Just wondering, and this is my reasoning:

If you are making a trip to visit a woman, there must be some kind of connection from both sides. When this connection does not translate in to chemisty, it is an awkward feeling, but it is also time to face reality.
In many cases the woman you are visiting had set some time apart to meet you, so why not use it ? It is possible to agree there will be no romance, but to keep the connection as friendship, where you can help each other.
This way you may tap in to her single friends, or she might notice those women on the street who have itnerest much faster than you.

If you can get over the initial disappointment (which is easy if you do not set your expectations to maximum) it can turn out to be the best backup plan.

[GregfromGa]

Those 10 commandments are there for a reason. They were compiled by the thousands of men who went before you. And they work very well. If you think it is necessary to challenge them or change them, perhaps it is better that you do not begin this journey.

Good advice Viking. I've witnessed it many times. Some guy who has never set foot on FSU soil comes here and wants to rewrite the way others should go about the process. I'm feeling nice today so I will give him a pass on this one if he'll admit he doesn't know shiat just yet.  LOL

[Mars]

A man or woman doesn't need to set foot in FSU to realize the logic of a backup plan.  A man or woman doesn't have to any experience at all to realize the logic of a backup plan.
Either the man or woman is halfway intelligent, or they are not.

[Gylden]

Spectris,

Don't let the old boys here give you too much shiyat, as everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Although I am sure you would actually agree that having a backup plan is a good idea. Whether you are a one woman kind of guy or like to be surrounded by a flock of beauties a back up plan is just plain common sense. Now your back up plan should fit to the kind of guy you are. If you don't feel right about seeing other women, just plan to do something else. I remember one of the members here said he had one of the best fishing trips of his life (was one of his back up's). Anyway use your imagination and if all goes well, then you won't need it, but many here will tell you that it saved them more often than not.
 

[Faux Pas]

My tag line for awhile was a quote by Steven Wright "experience is something you can't get until just after you need it". It was meant to be funny but is very appropriate concerning a visit especially when meeting women in the FSU countries.

Spectris, a backup plan as some have mention doesn't necessarily need to be other women to meet. Although if that is the reason you went in the first place, it sounds like a logical plan. It can be as simple as an agency phone number, a list of women's phone numbers, tour guides or other alternatives in which to spend your time. Chemistry with a lady or ladies you have been communicating with can and do go South in a hurry. More specifically if your communication has been through an agency of questionable reputation. My first visit was a WOVO and my back up plan was nothing more than the address of a near by agency. I am pretty good about entertaining myself is strange places as I travel and do it often but, that would probably make me the exception instead of the rule.

[GregfromGa]

A man or woman doesn't need to set foot in FSU to realize the logic of a backup plan.  A man or woman doesn't have to any experience at all to realize the logic of a backup plan.
Either the man or woman is halfway intelligent, or they are not.

So what are you saying here? Someone who has been to the FSU has a far better perspective on the importance of a back up plan then someone who hasn't. Keeping in mind that as Glyden and Faux Pas has pointed out it doesn't have to be 29 different girls phone numbers. I've witnessed grown men almost crying in their beers at Obriens because Olga didnt show up to meet them at the airport or because when the finally met Luda face to face there just wasnt any chemistry or when they met Sveta, she was wanting to go shopping before he was able to get his bags in the room.  I'm just saying it happens more often then one might think and certainly more often than one wants to admit happened to them.

[Gylden]

I think what Mars is saying is that if a grown man, most likely in his 40's or 50's is sitting in that bar crying, he probably should just forget the whole idea about finding a woman from a foreign country. Because it isn't such a complicated concept.
 

[BillyB]

  But it's 2010 now and from what I've experienced in these past weeks is the women I've communicated with are very technologically savvy (more so than many of my employees sadly) and are very willing to participate in video chat, IM's, even FaceBook if they are interested in you.

Yeah and they are video chatting, IM's, and Facebooking a ton of men out there. What makes you think that if you get on a plane to see her that she has to devote herself only to you?

So, just curious how do you justify a "backup plan" when you travel half way around the world to meet someone you have developed some relationship with and arguably grown fond enough to now meet?  If I was a woman, I would disregard, out of hand, any man who brought a "list" with him.

 

Many of those women have 10 men telling them they will come visit them among making many other promises. Maybe one will visit. Unless they are a hopeless romantic, they are probably dating the local boys and not yet ready to dedicate their life to a man they never met. It's almost crazy for a woman and a man to dedicate their lives to a stranger. Very few couples have such quality correspondence and an understanding that they were made for each other before meeting and I'm not even sure those guys know what they're actually feeling.

[tim 360]

OK, just a stray commnet here, but after my few weeks of exploring this new prospective dating pool of EU women (which seems to be FAR superior to what the US has to offer btw), I can't help but think this Commandment is just fundamentally wrong.  Perhaps in 2006 when it was originally posted it might have had some validity?  But it's 2010 now and from what I've experienced in these past weeks is the women I've communicated with are very technologically savvy (more so than many of my employees sadly) and are very willing to participate in video chat, IM's, even FaceBook if they are interested in you.  So in 3 weeks you've had some IM's, video chats and some FB and you think you have a "relationship???"  Please.

So, just curious how do you justify a "backup plan" when you travel half way around the world to meet someone you have developed some relationship with and arguably grown fond enough to now meet?  If I was a woman, I would disregard, out of hand, any man who brought a "list" with him.  This Rule sounds encouraging men to go on an EU "shopping trip" which definitely has it's own appeal with a pocket full of only superficial acquaintances I completely understand.  The mantra of this forum however, seems pretty universally adamant about having only good intentions when meeting these women.  I don't know, but if you are really looking for a serous relationship, I don't think a backup woman is the answer - a no change fee airplane ticket sounds more appropriate.Those commandments are there for a reason, though you are free to ignore them. Again,  you think you have some relationship and you are just one of tens of thousands of guys who may chat them up too.  In real life things may be quite different than in your internet life. 

Seems it might be time to update the "10 Commandments" to "9 Commandments" soon...Prolly not.

[GregfromGa]

I think what Mars is saying is that if a grown man, most likely in his 40's or 50's is sitting in that bar crying, he probably should just forget the whole idea about finding a woman from a foreign country. Because it isn't such a complicated concept.
 

Just for the record, I didnt see those guys actually shedding tears but it wasnt that far off. They were so far out of their element because they had no idea as to what to do next after the wheels had came off. A guy in his 40's and 50's are exactly the kind of people that need to be doing their homework. A guy in his 20's or early 30's will have a much easier time rolling with the flow when things go bad. And they do go bad more often than not. A guy in his 40's and 50's already thinks he knows most all the answers to all the questions. As far as a complicated concept, I disagree. This is a very complicated endeavor. There is certainly more failures than success.

[Markus]

spectris,

My backup plan consisted of, "I'll go home on the next available flight." But, it was a backup plan.
After all, I did have to plan when the return flights were available since they did not operate
every day. Perhaps a backup plan is simply an exit plan.

I think it's wise to consider the possibility of not having chemistry with the lady you are going to
meet. Having a plan in case this happens is a good idea. A plan could be as simple as "I'll depart
on an earlier flight."

Mark

[spectris]

Wow, I just sort of gave up on this thread pretty much instantly after the first comments.  I was writing seriously about having a real 2nd (or 3rd or...) woman in queue - not worrying about how to spend time if I was unexpectedly found alone w/ time on my hands.  Not even sure what to say to that actually - would anyone REALLY even consider just sitting in desperation, or just sitting period, if Plan A didn't work out?  I hope not. <sigh>

I was referring to having an actual woman #2 or #3 as a formal "back up plan" - as in you took the time (and who has that much time anyway?) and spent the energy and the $$ to get to whatever level it takes for you to actually get on a plane and travel 6000 miles to actually meet someone – it takes a LOT for me.  Nothing I've read here has convinced me that those of you who continue to defend this idea (in my context at least) are not just wrong.  And absolutely you can develop relationships w/o meeting in person.  I have Friends, customers and suppliers all over the globe – some I've met and many that I've never met in person, but all are "relationships" in some form (if you are equating “relatonship” with “love” – we are not on the same page).  I’ve communicated with several women in the FSU that arbsolutely genuine, real and interested - none of which is hard to verify btw if you are willing and able to put the effort into it. 

In the pre-internet days when men were apparently working from address lists and agency guides – maybe a BP was appropriate back “in the day” – but its 2010 now.  You (we) are very blessed in that you (we) can fly many places in the world in  right now and just because you (we) are an American Man you can use that as leverage w/ women in most countries in the world – if that’s what you want.  It’s not what I want.

[Gylden]

Hey Greg,
I really agree with you up to the point that IMO if a man at this age is thinking to go to the FSU to meet a woman and he hasn't already thought about the possibility of something not exactly going as planned on his own recognisance (without somebody telling him). IMO he is the wrong kind of guy to start this sort of endeavor in the first place and he will inevitably fail farther down the road anyway.
 

Spectris,
You see? you have a backup plan and you didn't even know it! So even without knowing you were following the 2nd commandment!