Definition of a good man and gentleman.

[DaveY]

When reading women's profiles, I often see them listing "looking for a good man, gentleman."

Now, I have a rather idealistic view of what a good man/gentleman is suppose to be. I have cultivated this image though my life experiences, through the men I have known and even characters from movies and literature.

If we are to believe that good men are so hard to find in the FSU, then where do Russian women find their inspiration to draw from?

I am asking for your own personal opinion on what constitutes a good man? How did you formulate this image? What influenced your decisions? And, whether this mirrors the sentiments of FSU women in todays society?

[Admin]

When reading women's profiles, I often see them listing "looking for a good man, gentleman."

Now, I have a rather idealistic view of what a good man/gentleman is suppose to be. I have cultivated this image though my life experiences, through the men I have known and even characters from movies and literature.

If we are to believe that good men are so hard to find in the FSU, then where do Russian women find their inspiration to draw from?

I am asking for your own personal opinion on what constitutes a good man? How did you formulate this image? What influenced your decisions? And, whether this mirrors the sentiments of FSU women in todays society?

Dave,

I trust you will receive some good feedback to your question from our RW members.

In the meantime, you might take a peek at the "Men's Code of Conduct" (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?pid=45) we developed some time back - and with the aid of several female RWD members, and assistance from a RW site.

It will hopefully give you some ideas about the meaning and intent.

Best of luck!

- Dan

[Lily]

For me it is just a normal man, therefore I never make this kind of requirement to a man in my profile. Plenty of them around me at work.

Suggest asking a requestor what is 'good man and gentleman' for her.

[mies]

When reading women's profiles, I often see them listing "looking for a good man, gentleman."

Now, I have a rather idealistic view of what a good man/gentleman is suppose to be. I have cultivated this image though my life experiences, through the men I have known and even characters from movies and literature.

If we are to believe that good men are so hard to find in the FSU, then where do Russian women find their inspiration to draw from?

I am asking for your own personal opinion on what constitutes a good man? How did you formulate this image? What influenced your decisions? And, whether this mirrors the sentiments of FSU women in todays society?

DaveY  - how would you describe a "good woman and a lady"?
If we are to believe that good women are so hard to find in USA and around the civilized western world - where do Western men find their inspiration to draw from?

[DaveY]

For me it is just a normal man, therefore I never make this kind of requirement to a man in my profile. Plenty of them around me at work.

Ok, so your opinion is good men are just normal men and that you're influenced by men that you meet every day, right?

Suggest asking a requestor what is 'good man and gentleman' for her.

I thought that's what I was asking for?

DaveY, I wish I 'd give you more meaningful answer than that, and really sorry that in my book, good men and gentlemen are just normal people that are around, and not anything special that you probably wanted to read from a woman. I don't have this definition.

My point is that when writing a profile, a woman obviously have something in her mind putting this 'normal man and gentleman' in words. Therefore, a good idea would be to ask the writer what did she mean.

[DaveY]

DaveY  - how would you describe a "good woman and a lady"?
If we are to believe that good women are so hard to find in USA and around the civilized western world - where do Western men find their inspiration to draw from?

mies, if I have insulted you then let me say I am sorry! This was not my intent.

However, if your intent is to start a pissing match, there is a member of this forum who can more easily accommodate you.

I have already stated what influences reflect upon my idea of a good man and these I also apply to my idea of a good woman.

[mies]

mies, if I have insulted you then let me say I am sorry! This was not my intent.
However, if your intent is to start a pissing match, there is a member of this forum who can more easily accommodate you.

of course no! you are very far from insulting me

I am plainly reflecting on your question.
1) how would you describe a good woman and a lady? (if you have an image of good woman in your mind, probably you also have an image of a good man by her side - then you should know what woman means when she says she is looking for good man)
2) many Western men who are searching for certain ideals in Eastern European countries complain that they no longer see these good virtues among Western women. So the only natural question is - how do they know of these good qualities if they cannot observe these qualities in local women? And since they do know about these good qualities - in a same way Russian women may know about good qualities in men, even if Russian women may not always observe these qualities in their immediate social environment.

do I still sound to you like I am pissed?

off-topic: due to physiological reasons it's hard for a female to compete with a male in a pissing match Females are greatly disadvantaged in this sport.

[SMS60]

To understand what it means you must translate it from woman talk to something you can decipher.

It means when she tries to steal your backbone with tears and batting eyes you don't allow her to manipulate you with her emotions. You stand up straight with your backbone still in place.

She will see you as a hero man

[DaveY]

of course no! you are very far from insulting me
I am plainly reflecting on your question.
1) how would you describe a good woman and a lady? (if you have an image of good woman in your mind, probably you also have an image of a good man by her side - then you should know what woman means when she says she is looking for good man)

Yes, but it's my image and not yours or any other Russian woman's. I'm clear about my own, I'm asking for yours.

Like I said, I have a rather idealistic view of what a good man and therefore, what a good woman is like. I would never presume to impose these ideals upon someone else.

[DaveY]

2) many Western men who are searching for certain ideals in Eastern European countries complain that they no longer see these good virtues among Western women. So the only natural question is - how do they know of these good qualities if they cannot observe these qualities in local women? And since they do know about these good qualities - in a same way Russian women may know about good qualities in men, even if Russian women may not always observe these qualities in their immediate social environment.

Your answer is more of what I was really seeking. Forget for the moment that I'm asking for a definition, and more for the reasoning behind it.

off-topic: due to physiological reasons it's hard for a female to compete with a male in a pissing match Females are greatly disadvantaged in this sport.

Our only advantage is that we have better aim.

[mies]

Yes, but it's my image and not yours or any other Russian woman's. I'm clear about my own, I'm asking for yours.

Like I said, I have a rather idealistic view of what a good man and therefore, what a good woman is like. I would never presume to impose these ideals upon someone else.

If you are matching your own idealistic views of a good man - you will do just right for any woman with more idealistic, or more realistic expectations. Don't you think so?  

In the recent movie "up in the air" - the blond heroine describes quite well what kind of man is a "good man" for her.

the phrase "good man" in the profiles of Russian women most likely comes from Russian attitude "...most importantly - he/she should be a good human" - "главное чтобы человек был хороший".
You can google it in Russian and see how widely it is used by both men and women. I don't remember where does this phrase come from, but every native russian speaker knows it. It means - that some quazi-superficial qualities - such as appearance, or age, or education, or income - are secondary, and the primary quality - is genuinely good personality. "Good man" - does not  have exact definition, but rather there is a common understanding of what "integral goodness" is.

Good man - does not cheat, does not take advantage, is considerate, kind, wise, helping, often a doer (but not necessarily), reasonably sensitive to others, sensible in his decisions and actions, sets good example for kids and loves kids, is not mean or malicious, isn't violent (in most cases - though in some cases aggression may be excused in "good man"), follows moral values and societal norms, follows his heart and "internal moral compass" but is reasonable and would not jeopardize the safety of people for superficial ideals (religious, political, economical etc), is loving towards family members, is respectful and nice/pleasant towards all other people, more often than not - has vibrant and fun personality, isn't complaining over hardships, isn't paranoid, isn't overly suspicious about motives of other people but at the same time isn't too naive/gullible, self-confident but not arrogant. Good man is reliable, dependable, and honest - but really good man - can always share his goodness with people around in such way that his family (and not friends or work) is always priority #1. He gets respect of people around him and everybody agrees that he is a good man.  
Normally - this definition isn't about financial nor social status.  Good man can come from any layer of society and may have any income level. Does not require a man to be religious or represent any particular religion.

--
Sometimes this phrase is used with more subtle meaning. When one party says "most importantly you are a good human" - they may be hinting that in their opinion you are deficient in some qualities, but  they are willing to make a deal/negotiate and develop relationship. And if you are "good" with them - comply with their expectations and definition of a "good person" - they are willing to work with you/date you/marry you. Such, when a mother-in-law may say about her new son-in-law "most importantly he is a good man" - she may either mean it explicitly - that she is really thinking he is a good man, or she may imply that he isn't rich enough, or doesn't have the looks, or isn't educated well enough, but she is willing to "adjust" her expectations - if he is going to take good care of her daughter, will be attentive to requests of in-laws, and will try his best to earn their love. It's just a random example. To some extend - this can be observed in work environment too.

[Jumper]

mies -
seriously ,very nice explaination,
and also the part where it can be used with a "qualifier" in a different situation..



But-in that light-
i really can't believe noone has brought up the " man needs to be just better than a monkey " phrase 

[mies]

But-in that light-
i really can't believe noone has brought up the " man needs to be just better than a monkey " phrase  

Thank you, AJ. The monkey comparison is  100% true - also very popular. It refers only to the looks. My high-school teacher liked to talk during classes: "Beauty requirements for men are very low. Just a little better than ape - and already a handsome man!"  :evil:
can also be used in a highly derogative way. When one woman is complaining that certain man is not handsome, another woman may respond "well, what did you expect? It is really hard to find a handsome man. Our reality: man is a little better than monkey, and we can consider ourselves lucky."

Dear Western men, when you read in the RW profiles expectations for men "don't have to be handsome, appearance isn't important for me" - this woman is probably a representative of "a little better than monkey" group. Man sees this phrase and expects that such "special woman doesn't care about the looks and understands real values" will like them for who they are. but it can be more complex than that. Quite often such woman will look down on the men, and think that men by definition are "ugly and not attractive". And will often require/demand from man - to compensate the lack of looks with some other qualities.

[Gator]

DaveY,

Listen to Mies.  She is focusing the discussion, and she certainly is giving you some useful, comprehensive information.

Many men go to the Russia believing the hyped doctrine that "good RM are rare, and because I am a good man some young, pretty RW will love me." 

Yes, a RW wants a good man. Who wouldn't?  Read Mies's definition very carefully.  It is far more than having good intentions and an honest, warm heart.

I have learned over my many years that a significant percentage of so called "good men" are actually naive about much of life.  Not stupid, but naive.  IMO, a RW will more than likely not respect a naive man, and instead he could easily become prey for an unscrupulous RW who would abuse him.  Fortunately, most RW in my experience are not unscrupulous.
 
One guideline is that if an AM has a good social life with AW, he will do fine with RW in his league.  OTOH, there is no reason to expect RW will somehow be the answer to his loneliness. 

[DaveY]

DaveY, I wish I 'd give you more meaningful answer than that, and really sorry that in my book, good men and gentlemen are just normal people that are around, and not anything special that you probably wanted to read from a woman. I don't have this definition.

My point is that when writing a profile, a woman obviously have something in her mind putting this 'normal man and gentleman' in words. Therefore, a good idea would be to ask the writer what did she mean.

Lily, thank you for your reply. An honest answer is hardly something to be sorry about.

I'm no longer certain, exactly what I was trying to find when I first started this topic. I think I was fishing for something, something that I knew was out there but I couldn't get a handle on. Luckily, mies came and gave me a big fish to chew on.

[DaveY]

But-in that light-
i really can't believe noone has brought up the " man needs to be just better than a monkey " phrase 

Thank you, AJ. The monkey comparison is  100% true - also very popular. It refers only to the looks. My high-school teacher liked to talk during classes: "Beauty requirements for men are very low. Just a little better than ape - and already a handsome man!"  :evil:
can also be used in a highly derogative way. When one woman is complaining that certain man is not handsome, another woman may respond "well, what did you expect? It is really hard to find a handsome man. Our reality: man is a little better than monkey, and we can consider ourselves lucky."

Dear Western men, when you read in the RW profiles expectations for men "don't have to be handsome, appearance isn't important for me" - this woman is probably a representative of "a little better than monkey" group. Man sees this phrase and expects that such "special woman doesn't care about the looks and understands real values" will like them for who they are. but it can be more complex than that. Quite often such woman will look down on the men, and think that men by definition are "ugly and not attractive". And will often require/demand from man - to compensate the lack of looks with some other qualities.

Mies, thanks for the very detailed and insightful posts. You've given me quite a lot to mull over.

It's ironic that you and AJ should reference this monkey comparison. As a boy, my family use to call me "monkey boy" because I was always climbing up trees or the staircase railing. I'm going to take this as a good sign that there maybe hope for me yet.

[Aloe]

The man Mies so eloquently describes is a PERFECT man in my eyes
A good man in my eyes is someone who has many good qualities, not necesserily a perfect man.
Good man for me (i took the qualities out of Mies list, cuz it is such a great list, most important qualities are highlighted)
does not cheat, does not take advantage, is considerate, kind (doesnt mind feeding stray kitties), helping,  sets good example for kids and loves kids, is not mean or malicious, isn't violent, follows his heart and "internal moral compass" but is reasonable and would not jeopardize the safety of people for superficial ideals (religious, political, economical etc), self-confident but not arrogant. Good man is reliable, dependable, and honest. his family (and not friends or work) is always priority #1.
That is all that makes a good man in my eyes. Now he may have flaws like being a little jealous or suspicious of others, or he may be naive, but that in no way will affect my thinking that he is a really good man

[DaveY]

The man Mies so eloquently describes is a PERFECT man in my eyes
A good man in my eyes is someone who has many good qualities, not necesserily a perfect man.
Good man for me (i took the qualities out of Mies list, cuz it is such a great list, most important qualities are highlighted)
does not cheat, does not take advantage, is considerate, kind (doesnt mind feeding stray kitties), helping,  sets good example for kids and loves kids, is not mean or malicious, isn't violent, follows his heart and "internal moral compass" but is reasonable and would not jeopardize the safety of people for superficial ideals (religious, political, economical etc), self-confident but not arrogant. Good man is reliable, dependable, and honest. his family (and not friends or work) is always priority #1.
That is all that makes a good man in my eyes. Now he may have flaws like being a little jealous or suspicious of others, or he may be naive, but that in no way will affect my thinking that he is a really good man

Yes, I agree. It's a great list. I still need to work on a couple of items myself.

Thanks for your contribution!

P.S. Love your avatar, it always cracks me up!

[DaveY]

In the recent movie "up in the air" - the blond heroine describes quite well what kind of man is a "good man" for her.

Just saw "Up in the air." Really enjoyed the movie. Thanks for the heads up! I'm not ashamed to admit that I have a huge man crush for George Clooney.

But, I don't get it? Was Alex talking about her husband or rationalizing about her marriage? Anyway, her image of a good man evidently wasn't good enough because she had no problems cheating with Clooney.

What I found more intriguing, was when Alex told Clooney, over the phone "think of me as yourself, only with a vagina." So, what do you think about this? Do you think some people secretly look for someone just like themselves?

[mies]

Just saw "Up in the air." Really enjoyed the movie. Thanks for the heads up! I'm not ashamed to admit that I have a huge man crush for George Clooney.

But, I don't get it? Was Alex talking about her husband or rationalizing about her marriage? Anyway, her image of a good man evidently wasn't good enough because she had no problems cheating with Clooney.

What I found more intriguing, was when Alex told Clooney, over the phone "think of me as yourself, only with a vagina." So, what do you think about this? Do you think some people secretly look for someone just like themselves?

thank you for nice words, Dave

In my understanding - she was talking about her husband. While Clooney's character at that time was matching the description to himself and was somewhat hoping she was talking about him. He didn't match several of her descriptions - she could not know whether he likes kids, and also the movie gave impression (at least to me) that she was earning not less and probably more than him. 

Regarding the phrase "think of me as yourself, only with a vagina" - I am not quite sure whether it was only a catchy phrase used by female heroine to increase interest of the male character, or it was a phrase with a deeper meaning. I tend to think that this phrase is important in the context of this movie. There are quite many business men who are able to perfectly compartmentalize their life. They travel a lot on business, often - worldwide, they take good care financially of their family, and they are trying to be good fathers and husbands while at home - because family is very important to them. At the same time - they have lovers on a side, or one-night stands - wherever they travel. This behavior is much more typical for men than for women. But as feminism spreads, and more women have executive positions, higher income, greater responsibility, more travel, less time at home - do we assume that women should keep their traditional qualities, or they can adopt typical male behavior? I had highly negative emotions about Alex in the end of the movie, and more so - specifically because she is a woman, and a mother. But isn't this situation quite common among men - when a married guy has a lover, and when lover wants their relationship become exclusive - man tells her "family is really important to me - don't you dare to mess it up!"?
In most cases public tends to justify male behavior, saying that most importantly man is a good provider, and family is most important to him. People believe this is a female lover who is responsible for man going astray. The lover is guilty for seducing a man because men are weak, and the man doesn't really harm anybody as long as affairs stay secret and he respects his wife.  (or something like that - is commonly said in FSU). So what is so different when a woman acts same way?

[Mars]

In most cases public tends to justify male behavior, saying that most importantly man is a good provider, and family is most important to him. People believe this is a female lover who is responsible for man going astray. The lover is guilty for seducing a man because men are weak, and the man doesn't really harm anybody as long as affairs stay secret and he respects his wife.  (or something like that - is commonly said in FSU). So what is so different when a woman acts same way?

More deep thinking Mies!!  :-))

This is a very complex topic.

The different ways of viewing (in terms of acceptability) actions of men and women with respect to many variables has developed over the centuries.

It will take much time for traditional male actions to be accepted with respect to women; and vice versa.  But probably not centuries.

The more important consideration . . . how will it impact on society as a whole, and children in particular.  I have no answers.

[Mars]

Regarding the movie itself:  I  found it amazing that it is so popular, in view of the extremely depressing nature of the work.  

Movie goers enjoy seeing people get fired????

Although I enjoyed the day to day interaction between the two lovers, the overarching theme was so depressing, I would certainly never watch it again.

[mies]

This is a very complex topic.

The different ways of viewing (in terms of acceptability) actions of men and women with respect to many variables has developed over the centuries.

It will take much time for traditional male actions to be accepted with respect to women; and vice versa.  But probably not centuries.

The more important consideration . . . how will it impact on society as a whole, and children in particular.  I have no answers.

Thank you for your input, Mars!
I am not advocating either of the sides. Rather interested in speculations and opinions about this topic. Because it is indeed very complex - as you said.

[DaveY]

More deep thinking Mies!!  :-))

This is a very complex topic.

The different ways of viewing (in terms of acceptability) actions of men and women with respect to many variables has developed over the centuries.

It will take much time for traditional male actions to be accepted with respect to women; and vice versa.  But probably not centuries.

The more important consideration . . . how will it impact on society as a whole, and children in particular.  I have no answers.

Acceptability will come as women acquire more power and wealth in society. Those with power make the rules. They determine what's acceptable in the public eye. What's acceptable on a purely personal level is up to the individual. I feel most people are sheep and will accept the status quo as long as it doesn't affect their lives dramatically.

[DaveY]

Regarding the movie itself:  I  found it amazing that it is so popular, in view of the extremely depressing nature of the work.  

Movie goers enjoy seeing people get fired????

Although I enjoyed the day to day interaction between the two lovers, the overarching theme was so depressing, I would certainly never watch it again.

I think people could just relate to what was going on. The whole situation and all the relationships, not just the main character's. Oh, and the whole inner world of the frequent flyer, that most of us don't know about, that was interesting too.