ATMs in Kiev

[Horatio]

Can anyone list a few safe places to use ATMs in Kiev? By safe I mean machines that aren't likely to make copy of your card; record pin, etc.

Thanks.

[BC]

I would check your bank or card website for a listing of international ATM's.

[Shadow]

Kiev is not crime centre Horatio. I believe I have not yet read any reports here of ATM cards being copied and money stolen from anyone during a trip.

The best ATM is of course an American with a filled wallet......for UW

[Horatio]

This is what the US Embassy in Kiev has to say about ATMs:

"Credit card and ATM fraud is widespread. Ukraine operates as a cash economy, and money scams are widespread. Although credit card and ATM use among Ukrainians is increasingly common, we nevertheless strongly recommend that visitors and permanent residents of Ukraine refrain from using credit cards or ATM cards."

 

[Leslie]

Horatio,

Try the ATM by the coffee shop in Globus.  The shopping mall under Independance Square.  It is on the first floor overlooking the food hall.  In central Kiev you can trust all the atm's which are inside the banks or post office building.  On the street or in Railway stations the there is a chance of the card details being scanned but simple robbery is far more common !

You have very little to worry about in central Kiev during the day or evening.  Wandering around very late and drunk is another matter.  You may as well wear a sign saying "Rob Me!"

 

[Admin]

This is what the US Embassy in Kiev has to say about ATMs:

"Credit card and ATM fraud is widespread. Ukraine operates as a cash economy, and money scams are widespread. Although credit card and ATM use among Ukrainians is increasingly common, we nevertheless strongly recommend that visitors and permanent residents of Ukraine refrain from using credit cards or ATM cards."

And I would never suggest that someone should ignore anything from the US authorities - however - I recall some pretty impressive scare tactics employed to describe train travel and bad roadways and numerous others differences from American standard.

I seldom find their standing warnings to be of too much value other than to create a general sense of vigilance. While true that some negative events occur every year to Americans visiting Ukraine - Ukraine is not nearly as dangerous and crime-ridden as other parts of the world - and probably no more so than most major cities in the US.

FWIW

- Dan

[dorogoyroberto]

Horatio,

Both Dan and Leslie are correct.

I live in Kiev. There are not assassins on every rooftop, land mines  awaiting every step, pickpockets over every shoulder and assorted  missiles and ne'er-do-wells waiting around every corner.

In general, you should definitely be vigilant but certainly not to the  point of being so paranoid you would coldcock every sinister-looking  babushka encountered. Bank ATMs (known as Bankomats) such as Leslie  described are what to look for, and in seven months I have not had any  problems.

It is reasonable and prudent to register your travel itinerary with the  State Dept., if only for added peace of mind. See:  http://travelregistration.state.gov/ibrs/ for the process. Since I  live here, I did this during my first week here, and it only takes a  few minutes.

As Dan indicated, the Warden Messages one receives from the U.S.  Embassy tend to be overly dramatic. I read the messages anyway so I  know what is being bandied about.

Roberto
Kiev, Ukraine

[wxman]

Pretty scarey how criminals can disguise a normal atm and steal all your information.

Look closely at the pictures, as you can't tell it's not a normal atm.

http://www.snopes.com/crime/warnings/atmcamera.asp

[Shadow]

The procedure and fraud is well-known here as well. However think of the organization behind it:

1. Placing the ATM reader and camera without being seen

2. Observing the machine, to make sure it is not discovered

3. Reading out data and constructing ATM cards

4. Using the cards within limited time span.

The equipment to read and make cards is not cheap, chances of this happening on a large scale are small.

 

[wxman]

I agree, it is not an easy task, and generally only for the really organized criminal, but nonetheless is has been done. We just had an incident last week in the US where thieves did just this, and stole over $100,000 in a few days time. The best time do to this is on a weekend, when most transactions do not get posted until monday, so the criminals can steal as much as they can, before the people figure it out.  

[Albert]

Contrary to some above statements:

I DID lose money from my checking account after using ATM in Kyiv.

I did use only ATMs in the lobbies of large, established banks.

In my case, it was nothing to do with fake ATMs, hidden cameras, 'slieves' in the ATM machines, etc.  As was explained to me later by my bank in USA, this is widespread throughout Ukraine, Russia and all FSU.  It is the internal bank employees who are doing this.  They have computer programs set up to capture the data and your punched in PIN number from your ATM card when it is placed in the machine for the normal transaction.  They then use this data to manufacture a new ATM card which is a clone of yours and they have your PIN number.  These cards, or just the info, is sold to various locations throughout the FSU and the withdrawals may occur anywhere.

And it does no good to read about someone who has used ATM cards for X years or Y months without any problems.  I, myself, had used ATM cards for over 15 trips to FSU without any problems.  But that didn't help me at all when the odds finally caught up with me.

Luckily, my USA bank reimbursed me for all the money taken from my account.  But I have heard from others that their banks refused the reimbursement.

Also, lukily, my account only lost $1,000 each day for 2 days as that was the daily limit I set on it.

And even more lukily, I was just returning to USA when the withdrawals occurred, so my bank was able to get ahold of me and then they put a stop on all further withdrawals and issued me new ATM cards with different numbers.

It was all pretty scarry for me, thinking of what might have happened had the total gotten higher and my bank had not reimbursed me.

Although I hated to do it, on my trips since then, I have carried $3 to 4 thousand in cash on my body and have not used the ATM machines.

[dorogoyroberto]

Albert,

Your experience does indeed sound scary, and I can understand why you would want to avoid using Bankomats in Kiev.

May I ask which bank told you of the widespread usage of programs by  bank employees in the FSU to steal money? I would like to tell that to  my primary bank in the U.S., Washington Mutual, and get their comments.

You wrote: "And it does no good to read about someone who has used ATM cards for X years or Y months without any problems."

I respectfully disagree. This is, after all, a forum to share  information. What I do is use an account that always has a rather low  balance. When I need more, I jus transfer it from an account not linked  to the ATM card I use, replenishing funds as I use them. Thus, I do not  expose any significant funds to any kind of access.

Roberto
Kiev, Ukraine

[Admin]

Albert,

Your experience does indeed sound scary, and I can understand why you would want to avoid using Bankomats in Kiev.

May I ask which bank told you of the widespread usage of programs by  bank employees in the FSU to steal money? I would like to tell that to  my primary bank in the U.S., Washington Mutual, and get their comments.

You wrote: "And it does no good to read about someone who has used ATM cards for X years or Y months without any problems."

I respectfully disagree. This is, after all, a forum to share  information. What I do is use an account that always has a rather low  balance. When I need more, I jus transfer it from an account not linked  to the ATM card I use, replenishing funds as I use them. Thus, I do not  expose any significant funds to any kind of access.

Roberto
Kiev, Ukraine

Robert - I think it is a little like heart disease. We hear all about the warnings and the many steps we should take to avoid falling victim to the disease - yet it doesn't mean much to us UNTIL IT HAPPENS TO US. Once that occurs, it becomes VERY personal.

While I have never had a problem using ATM's in Ukraine - admittedly, I have not made extensive use of the services. I also have not had problems walking the streets at night, or taking the overnight trains, or being attacked in my apartment by someone laying in wait - though I have heard others make those claims. I suppose, if that HAD happened to me, I would be more inclined - like Albert - to make sure people know it CAN happen - even if the majority of people (like you and I) have never experienced any hint of trouble.

FWIW

- Dan

[dorogoyroberto]

Dan,

You certainly have a point and yes, I hope all the bad experiences that  various posters have claimed on various forums do not become mine as  well. Whether all of them have credibility is another matter, of  course. Still, there is something to be said for circumstantial  evidence, as Thoreau pointed out, such as when you find a trout in the  milk.

Roberto
Kiev, Ukraine

[Albert]

Roberto, my bank is Bank One, 7th largest (by revenue) in USA.

And, I didn't mean that you shouldn't report your experiences.  Just that, as Dan implies, it does little to comfort those who suffer some consequences, to hear that someone else has never suffered such.

Yes, this is a forum to exchange info, but I believe the info should be heavily weighted toward preparing our fellow members about the various problems that can happen.  Not in an effort to freighten them into never venturing outside their house, but just to prepare them.

Stories about good times in foreign countries and good times with foreign women serve a very useful purpose.  But stories like: "Don't worry about drivers in FSU because I ran across 8 lanes of heavy traffic in Moscow and never got hit," tend to rile me a bit.

[dorogoyroberto]

Albert,

I do not consider posting good news other than good times in general to  be detrimental to preparing fellow group members in the slightest.

Your reference to FSU drivers is especially apt, however, because some  of them remind me of Gene Hackman's automotive efforts in "The French  Connection." I really recommend that street crossings here be viewed  with a eye toward caution.

Thank you for the Bank One ID. Will write my bank as this issue does concern me...

Roberto
Kiev, Ukraine

[Oosik]

As I said in the other thread, the outdoor one to the left of the McDonalds is reliable, the one in the bank to the right is not.

[Horatio]

Thank you, everyone, for the information. I should point out that as a rule I am not a nervous Nellie. I am a tall, sturdily built man, who's not easily intimidated. I just wanted to learn about any local scams so as not to become an unknowing victim. In the past I have travelled to South Africa where my local hosts warned me about all kinds of dangers involving car-jacking, etc. but before my trip was over I was driving comfortably and having the occasional drink in the local shebeen. I have also visited the shanty town surrounding Rio and have been chased by a stick-wielding gang in Bangkok. I suspect Kiev can't be a lot worst than what I have already seen.

I notice that there's a restriction on the amount of money one can carry in and out of the Ukraine...? This could potentially be a problem if one were to rely solely on carrying cash.

[dorogoyroberto]

Horatio,

If you list the cash in a customs declaration, you can bring in up to  $10,000 -- see: http://www.ukraineinfo.us/consular/customs.html

Roberto
Kiev, Ukraine

[Shadow]

The next criminal lesson: credit card fraud

Apart from the ATM there is also credit card fraud to be concerned about. People are often insecure about sending their data over the Internet because of possible fraud.

However the same people do not hesitate to give their creditcard in a restaurant for paying the bill. In my opinion this is giving a possibility for fraud. Without supervision, it is easy for the person handling the credit card to copy all data, number, expiry date and control number and, by copying the slip, even signature.

Try not to let your card out of sight, and look if the cashiers are taking notes.