One Agency Refuses to Accept Texas Customers

[GQBlues]

What is really is interesting to note about this whole enchilada is...men seem to ignore WHY these legislations are taking root in the first place. It's the 'few' rotten eggs in the basket that makes it tougher for the rest. This entire country can be populated by feminist in totality ( it isn't - far from it), but the fact is, if there never was any reason ( actual cases of sexual predation / abuse) to impose these types of legislations, then there's nothing to legislate.

Blaming these on feminism goes hand in hand with blaming feminism for having to go to impoverished countries just to get a date. That's a cop-out.

The least one should do is aim the crosshair at those who really ARE to blame.

[KenC]

What is really is interesting to note about this whole enchilada is...men seem to ignore WHY these legislations are taking root in the first place. It's the 'few' rotten eggs in the basket that makes it tougher for the rest. This entire country can be populated by feminist in totality ( it isn't - far from it), but the fact is, if there never was any reason ( actual cases of sexual predation / abuse) to impose these types of legislations, then there's nothing to legislate.

Blaming these on feminism goes hand in hand with blaming feminism for having to go to impoverished countries just to get a date. That's a cop-out.

The least one should do is aim the crosshair at those who really ARE to blame.

GQ,
When I first heard of IMBRA, I was quick to jump on the anti-IMBRA bandwagon.  Just a natural reaction to governemnt interferance in personal matters, I guess.  But after actually knowing what it all entails, it is really no big deal.  As this state legislation requiring a criminal report does not seem bad in any way IMO.

I will say though, that the different outlook on the family roles IS one of the very best differences in my mind between AW and RW.
KenC

[Boethius]

There is a flip side to the concept of men sexually harassing women in the workplace.  Almost 30 years ago I started a small company that grew into a successful 300 employee business.  We also had an additional 250 independent reps across the country.  Because of the nature of the business, light manufacturing, packing and shipping, the major majority of the employees were female with only a handful of males.  I cannot tell you how many sexual advances I received from employees and reps looking for an "in" (pun intended) with the owner.  Of course it was a different time then, when a woman sleeping with the boss was scorned for "sleeping her way to the top."  

Today, no matter what the circumstances, the man is ALWAYS the guilty party.  I really don't think human nature has changed all that much, just the public opinion.  I have no love for men that prey on their subordinates nor the women looking to "bag" the boss either.

I have read that the majority of married couples had met their spouses in a work environment.  With today's sexual climate in the workplace, I wonder how it is even possible now.
KenC

I don't doubt any of that, and women can be predatory as well.  But 30 years ago, few women were in positions of power.

I worked at one of the big accounting firms for a time.  Lots of students met and married there.  The firm was very careful in ensuring they were never in a superior/subordinate position.  In a couple of cases, partners had affairs, divorced, and married coworkers, usually secretaries.  In those cases, the parties were told "One of you has to leave.  You decide which one it will be."

Some reliable data to support this claim?

Nationmaster has this information, which is gleaned from a UN study.

And to get back on topic, yes, it is a shame it had to come to this, but one dead woman at the hands of a violent partner is one too many.

[kievstar]

Boethius, not sure what Kiev was like 30 years ago but in past 3 years Ernst Young, Deloitte, and KPMG in Kiev had the worst treatment of women I have seen in a corporate environment in the world.  I could not imagine anything worse. Several of the secretaries were there basically for sex.  They would hire certain women based on certain things.  Of course there were people who had to do the work.  Sine this is a board not to discuss office affairs will keep it at that.  Fortunately about a year ago these firms had to downsize but they did keep there sex toys.  My experience is women sleep around to advance in Kiev in legal, consulting, and accounting firms.  No other way to advance. 

[Turboguy]

one dead woman at the hands of a violent partner is one too many.

Yes, but will it even save a single life?   My guess is it won't and if it has any real effect will probably kill a few more.  What I mean by that is if it has any effect it would be to discourage foreign marriages which will leave more women in societies where they are more apt to be beaten or killed.

This is one more small regulation, one more slight loss of freedom.  Freedoms can be lost in many ways.  In times of great problems people give away their freedom to someone who offers them hope.  (ie, Nazi Germany)  People can lose their freedom also by slowly chipping away at a snails pace where few realize they are being more regulated and have less freedom.  This is another step in that direction.  Americans are being stripped of freedom, being regulated more and more and becoming socialized with the government getting control.  

Just think for a minute if you think this bill is good.  What if..........  Every person in the USA was accompanied 24 hours a day by two FBI agents.  Think how wonderful that would be.  All murders would be stopped.  All robberies would be stopped. All drug use would be stopped.  Heck, they could even stop cell phone use while driving.   In High School I read George Orwells, 1984.  I have seen so much movement that I think in another 20 years we could live in the society he saw.  As I recall the book I read so long ago, people were watched by tv cameras 24 hours a day.  Think back to when Princes Diana died and they had video footage of everything the driver did before he left.  Will our bedrooms be next?   I don't like regulations and don't like losing my freedom.  There is a good side to every regulation but is it worth the price we must pay?

Back on topic, according to the E-Mail Order Bride program on TV last week there are 16,000 international marriages a year.  So, lets assume that there are 50 or 100 thousand people writing and searching.  Lets also assume that it will take the average guy ab out 4 hours and $ 50.00 to comply and that it will take the average agency about an hour for the paperwork.  So we are looking at about 50 million dollars + wasted that could be used more productivly as well as 4 million wasted hours that could be more productive and if anything more women dying as a result, they will just die elsewhere.  

[pitbull]

I will say though, that the different outlook on the family roles IS one of the very best differences in my mind between AW and RW.
KenC

KenC,

Could you elaborate on this? I am curious as to what differences you mean specifically as I haven't noticed any significant ones. Wonder if I'm missing anything.


Thanks 

[Boethius]

Boethius, not sure what Kiev was like 30 years ago but in past 3 years Ernst Young, Deloitte, and KPMG in Kiev had the worst treatment of women I have seen in a corporate environment in the world.  I could not imagine anything worse. Several of the secretaries were there basically for sex.  They would hire certain women based on certain things.  Of course there were people who had to do the work.  Sine this is a board not to discuss office affairs will keep it at that.  Fortunately about a year ago these firms had to downsize but they did keep there sex toys.  My experience is women sleep around to advance in Kiev in legal, consulting, and accounting firms.  No other way to advance.  

I have never denied this was the case.  It was the same in Kyiv 10 and 20 years ago, too.  I don't know about 30 years ago, as I was in high school then.

My point was not about office politics, but about how women are treated on the streets.  Women don't face the same harassment on the streets as they do here.

[Misha]

I have no idea where you live in Canada Boethius, but I can say that my wife has never complained about being harassed in the streets of Canada. Russia is another story. She had a number of incidents where she feared for her safety and well-being inthe past when she lived in Russia. This included a few times when she was attacked on the main square in her city and her fear of stairwells at night in Russia and the friends who had been attacked there at knifepoint...

[Boethius]

Robbed or a sexual motive?  Where I live, being robbed is very common, particularly on public transportation.

[tfcrew]

Unfortunately, the criminal background checks are not case sensitive.
The idea should be, is there a violent history? ..which can also be fueled by uncontrolled alcohol consumption..domestic quarrelling where the cops are called in etc.

Sadly enough such investigation would reveal [esp in Texas]..embarrassing non violent infractions [possession of an illegal substance or joy-riding or drunk driving]
This could damage a potentially otherwise prudent relationship with black marks that have in fact been summarily corrected.

[Misha]

Robbed or a sexual motive?  Where I live, being robbed is very common, particularly on public transportation.

She was stopped by a group of young men who were insisting that she go with them. One was holding onto her and was starting to drag her to force her to join them. Fortunately, she managed to break away from them and managed to run away. Robbery was not on their minds. Her friend was attacked by a rapist.

[Boethius]

I'm happy she escaped unharmed.  However, such occurrences happen here, too. 

I am talking about just daily life, walking down a street.  Many of the men catcalling after women, harrassing women on the street are not rapists, just jerks.  But the problem is, a woman never knows.

[Misha]

I'm happy she escaped unharmed.  However, such occurrences happen here, too. 

I am talking about just daily life, walking down a street.  Many of the men catcalling after women, harrassing women on the street are not rapists, just jerks.  But the problem is, a woman never knows.

Again, my wife has never experienced catcalls in the city where we live or any of the numerous cities we visited: Ottawa, Edmonton, Philadelphia, etc... Her experience does not mirror yours and trust me if she had been harrassed at any point I would have been the first to hear about it...

[Boethius]

You live in a small city, correct?  Not going to happen because of social mores.  

If you are present or she is only frequenting high traffic areas, she won't have these experiences.   In my experience, Calgary and Edmonton are particularly bad in this regard, even downtown Calgary.    These days, it is my daughter, not me (an advantage of middle age!  I now only get panhandled, usually by boys who could be my sons), who experiences this, and she doesn't like it.

[Sculpto]

I just read the document and don't see anything especially bad about it.  What is interesting is it specifies the agency must pay for translations into the language of the girl.  I suspect this is why the Phils agency has objected because they can no longer force the American client to pay for said translations.

Now, about the rather silly Feminist or not argument...

It is not even relevant.  After considerable thought I have concluded this nor IMBRA has anything to do with Feminism.  What I think is in fact taking place is a very misguided attempt to regulate an industry that is ripe for all kinds of abuse by sex trafficers, men with bad intentions and etc.  Unfortunately, as these laws are written they in fact give the agencies more power to screw the paying clients.  The pervs, abusers and trafficers can easily get around these laws with almost no effort.

Here is a little something for the "OMG" crowd...

http://dancegogo.com/

There are several of these companies openly recruiting in a variety of places on the web.  Girl's are paying top dollar for "job offers" and then going to work in this network of strip clubs.. So.. quit wringing your hands together.  The marriage agency business is better off dead anyway.  There is no such thing as a Russian Mail Order Bride.

[Boethius]

It is not even relevant.  After considerable thought I have concluded this nor IMBRA has anything to do with Feminism.  What I think is in fact taking place is a very misguided attempt to regulate an industry that is ripe for all kinds of abuse by sex trafficers, men with bad intentions and etc.  Unfortunately, as these laws are written they in fact give the agencies more power to screw the paying clients.  The pervs, abusers and trafficers can easily get around these laws with almost no effort.

I agree it has nothing to do with feminism.  

I believe the impetus for the legislation came not to regulate trafficking, but after several high profile murders of foreign women by their American husbands.

I also agree many will get around the laws.  However, men with domestic violence charges in the past (as was the case in a few of the high profile cases) will have problems.  

Isn't there now also some sort of Homeland Security screening?

[GQBlues]

I'll add an anecdote to these exchanges based soley on my wife's experiences in these two areas....

In Novosibirsk: My wife used to tell me how much she hated having to take the bus after school because usually it's during rush hours, or when there's quite a few people taking the same line. She said men will always exaggerate having to cozy up against her/women and actually rub their groin against the women when the bus gets so full people had to stand.

Another instance is, after meeting me in Moscow our first meeting, she landed back in Novosibirsk fairly early in the morning (4/5 AM) and took the taxi home. After I got home and phoned her, she relayed her experience of her trip back to Siberia. Part of what she shared was how stupid and scared she felt because when she took the taxi it turned out there were two men in it. Just when they were leaving, another men got on with them. Nothing happened as she got safely home BUT - she felt foolish because she said the chances of her getting raped was high. When I asked her about the police, she dismissed it only by saying they would've either ignored it, or maybe participated.

When she arrived here, we used to live in the Marina. Before she learned to drive, she would take the bus to get where she wanted to go. Unfortunately, she would have to walk nearly a mile from our place to the nearest bus stop. She hated this walk not because of the distance but because what would always happen. Cars/guys would stop and try to speak with her, or give her business cards, ask for her number, etc...or cars would drive by and honk and wave, or even drive slow and closely along while she walked. Men actually get even more interested when they hear she can barely speak English and she carried a very heavy acent.

The point of this post? In as much as we say women are women - it is also true that men are men, FWIW.

[Misha]

I chatted with my wife about the content of this thread. She then reminded me of another event that had happened in her city to her best friend. Her friend had been abducted by a group of young men on one of the main streets of her city, in front of the university, in the middle of the day. They dragged her into their car and drove her off to an isolated dacha where she was kept tied up while her abductors smoked marijuana and drank. She was able to trick one of the people at the party to untie her so she could go to the washroom, and then she ran for it.... Anecdotal yes, but another example showing that the streets of Russia are hardly the peaceful utopia as is being presented.

[Boethius]

GQ, can you imagine a WW getting into a cab with 2 unknown men?

The subway groping is pretty common across the FSU.  I had that experience as well, and at that time, it would not have happened where I live.  Now, it does.  In fact, it even happens at bus stops.  My MIL was groped on the tram.  My FIL went the next day, pulled the guy off the tram, and punched his lights out.

Misha, I am not suggesting the streets of other cities are peaceful utopias.  I can relate several cases in almost any North American city of girls and women being abducted in broad daylight, often out of parking lots with security cameras, and being raped, often murdered.  Don't take the extreme case.  I'm not talking about rapists or perverts.  What I am referring to is the rhythm of daily life.  My specific point was that there is a reason women in North America dress down.  

[Misha]

GQ, can you imagine a WW getting into a cab with 2 unknown men?

Misha, I am not suggesting the streets of other cities are peaceful utopias.  I can relate several cases in almost any North American city of girls and women being abducted in broad daylight, often out of parking lots with security cameras, and being raped, often murdered.  Don't take the extreme case.  I'm not talking about rapists or perverts.  What I am referring to is the rhythm of daily life.  My specific point was that there is a reason women in North America dress down. 

These are not cases read about in newspapers: there are cases involving my wife or her immediate friends. A big difference.

As for dressing down, I am not convinced of your explanation, but I prefer not to quibble on that point.

[Jack]

while her abductors smoked marijuana

ahhhhh, it was that damned mary jane that caused it!

[Misha]

ahhhhh, it was that damned mary jane that caused it!

Didn't cause it, but they certainly enjoyed partaking in a multitude of illegal activities 

[Boethius]

Not a big difference.  But if it's personal accounts you want, here you go.

I have a friend who was volunteering for a film festival.  She went to the Greyhound station at noon to pick up the film.  The guy at the desk told her it was in the back, and she should come have a look to ensure she picked up the right film.  When she went back, she was attacked by the guy and a worker in the back.  She was pinned to a wall and groped.  She is not a wilting flower, and started screaming and kicking.  They let her go.  I told her she should report them, particularly since there is a security camera in front which would have corroborated her account (i.e. - of going to the back), but she was just happy she wasn't raped, and wanted to forget the whole thing.

Another friend was walking home from a bus stop, when she was attacked and pulled into an alley by two young men and repeatedly raped.  Her rapists will go on trial this fall.

The daughter of a colleague had her drink spiked at a party.  She was "helped" to an upstairs bedroom by a someone from the party.  She awoke the next morning, dishevelled, undressed and bleeding.  She doesn't remember what happened.

If you don't think this happens frequently in Canada, you are mistaken.  Most rapes don't even get reported.  Now, I will say that the situation for women wrt sexual assault is vastly superior in the West.  There is no comparison.  But violence against women is pretty common.

You don't have to be convinced of my explanation, but then, you're not a WW.  Not drawing attention to oneself (at least in larger cities) is pretty common for women who are out and about on their own.

[Misha]

If you don't think this happens frequently in Canada, you are mistaken.  Most rapes don't even get reported.

And do you think most rapes in Ukraine/Russia are reported? I don't disagree that women are attacked in Canada, but I am countering the impression that you were giving that women were so much safer in the streets of the FSU than they were in Canada. If you think that is true, then you are truly mistaken.

[Boethius]

I can assure you, in Ukraine vs Canada, that is the case.  But my point was not about safety.  It was about harassment.