My Stupid WOVO trip to FSU

[StupidGuy]

I am 44 year old guy, average looking, average shape, average income, yada, yada, yada.  Found a dating site with a lot of RW quite by accident about a year ago.  It was a monthly pay site.  Contacted 30 or so gals who seemed to meet what I wanted.  Also saw this site and did a lot of reading without registering or writing anything myself.

Saw all the arguments about WOVO vs WMVM.  The WOVO group of men, and of course all the women here, touted how it was the only honorable way to go.  So I did it.

Focused in on one gal, Natalia.  She was 38 with 17 year old daughter just starting to University in this fall.  Natalia was very tall and slender, pretty in face, masters degree, yada, yada, yada.

We exchanged maybe a hundred emails over a couple of months and talked on the phone (I thought) about 15 times.  She told me in emails that she was studying French, but her (I thought) English was near perfect on the phone.

I only get 2 weeks vacation per year, and I took it all in mid-April to go visit my chosen one on the very honorable WOVO approach.

I check on internet and find a person highly recommended by many to find me an apartment for the two week period.  I gave a checklist of what I wanted, and was assured that the apt met all what I wanted.  Sent a deposit via MoneyGram and paid for airport pickup and delivery to my apt also.

But upon arrival, the apt was a disaster as far as meeting what was on my checklist and what I had been guaranteed.  I was still shell shocked from the jet lag, so just paid the rest of the money due and hit the rack.  I was promised that everything would be fixed up as soon as possible.  But it never was.

In morning made phone call to Natalia.  After much jabbering in the background, etc. I found I was talking to Olga who was Natalia’s 40 year old married sister.  WTF

Olga explains to me that she actually wrote the letters to me, but they were the words that Natalia wanted to say, and anyway, they were like twins, so knew what each other thought at all time.   AND , GET THIS, ALL MY PHONE CALLS WERE WITH THE MARRIED SISTER OLGA!!!!!!!!!!!    Bu t that’s OK also, because they think alike.

So the deal was Olga studied English and Natalia studied French.  Olga didn’t need a husband, but Natalia did.  So when an English speaking man wrote to Natalia, it was simply the proper thing for the English speaking sister to write and SPEAK for the French speaking sister.  It was all very logical, proper and honorable.  So now the very honorable WOVO idea was coming face to face with the reality of honor in the FSU.

But anyway, Olga tells me that my meetings with Natalia will go on as scheduled and that Natalia was very wanting to meet with me.  She did actually have some English skills, BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY

“Language isn’t really important in relations between a man and a woman.  What is important  are eyes, smile, voice and something inside.”   Words to live by for sure.

So, I said sure, no problem, let’s meet.  After all that was my options 1, 2, 3 and more.

Met Natalia at agreed place at 2 PM.  She rushed to get across street. I gave her small one armed hug.  She supposed to be 38, but looked 10 years older maybe.  She was sort of strange looking from some angles, but then could seem to look very good  from other angles.  Maybe like a Susan Sarandon or Lauren Bacall  Not that she looking like them, but you know how they are not really pretty, yet something about them attracts men.

She 5 feet 10 inches tall, which was nice as I am 6 feet 3.  Makeup not done well.  Teeth had black in places between which was never visible in her pics.  Very large thin nose.  But very nice light green eyes and luxurious black hair and beautiful smile which had attracted me in many of her pictures.  Noticed later that she had sort of a small stomach bulge high up like men get.

She told me first thing that her English was weak . . . and it really was.  Maybe 2-3.  She was taking French lessons and kept throwing Russian and French words at me.  She kept apologizing for her English, but maybe a little defensive about it also, saying ‘I told you so.’  Yeah, like 10 minutes ago.

We went right across the street to a restaurant.  Interior was supposed to look like a restaurant  from the Czar’s era.  Two men were smoking inside but we sat on opposite side of room.  Soon we were the only two in the place, which was great.

No English menu and Natalia limited English, but I was semi-prepared.  I said Chicken Kyiv and Natalia caught on to it.  We also managed to figure out potato.  And I could say voda biz gaza.  Natalia had the same except tea instead of water.  Her tea came with a chocolate bon bon which she ate entirely without offering any to me.

Bill was not too bad at around $30 equivalent.   Natalia pulled out equivalent of $30 from my stack and said that was enough.  Later, on the way back from toilet, I slipped the waiter $5.  So in all just around 35 dollars.

I had worn a sweater and blue blazer, but it was quite warm.  So when we were leaving restaurant, I told her I needed to take sweater back to apt.  She said OK, but when got to apt, she just waved me upstairs and said she will . . . wait me.

We walked down one main street and then onto another.  Stopped at phone place and bought SIM chip and some time to put on the GSM phone I had brought from USA.   Then we scouted out 3 Internet cafes as I wanted to send some emails later to my family.  First one closed.  Second was $1.25 per hour.  Third was $1.50 per hour and filled with smoke.  We walked in a couple of small food type markets to see what there.  Then we walked the streets for awhile and through a park and sat in the park for an hour or so.

I tried to keep a conversation going, and Natalia actually tried also.  But it is just terrible when there is no common language.

But also, there was no real spark between us and I was wondering how to gracefully end this first date.  My mouth was also bone dry, which was unusual for me.  Finally around 5 PM, I said, well we should get you on the metro.  She said yes, then said she would walk back to my apt street with me and then on to metro.  So that is what we did.  We gave each other sort of an awkward hug and I kissed her cheek which was mostly covered with her hair.

I said I would send her SMS and she said, yes you do that.

So I sat in my apartment during this first evening and tried to analyze the situation.  I decided she would be a real long-shot.  First have to bring her English up, but she might not be willing, as she was into the French thing.  Maybe has a Frenchman on the line also.  Her looks were a real question, but I might be able to accept that.  However, she might have zero actual interest in me.  The lack of English prevented us from really getting a feel for what she was thinking or feeling.

One other negative was that she was the type of woman (person) who liked to pull and push.  As in, when we were walking she would just suddenly push or pull me by arm or hand in another direction.  I don’t like that.  But on plus side, this indicated she was a touchy-feely person, as contrasted to the women who go to great effort  to make sure there is zero contact of any body parts on first dates.

OK, so I did my analysis, but then found out it was all for naught.   Called the ‘family phone’ in the morning and talked to Olga, of course.  She informed me they had also done the analysis from their side.  Turns out that Natalia got a big headache from trying to communicate in English with me; and she doesn’t want to get more headaches.

So they decided, that I should just have a good time by myself for the rest of my two weeks in their city.

Wow, talk about a stupid guy trying to do the honorable thing.

But, I had also remembered the advice about back up plans.

First plan try to contact some other women from the dating sites that I had put on hold.  But they all told me to go fock myself.  Checked with some agencies also, but they were simply horrible and had nothing to fit my bill, but for a lot of bills of a different color  up front they would certainly find me someone and have me married within the week.

Second, just try to make it a vacation.  But this city was also just horrible and nothing to do.

Third, cut my losses and go back home.  But the losses just kept multiplying.  Had to pay big bucks to get ticket changed.  Then when got back home informed that I must just burn the rest of my vacation time as a temp had been hired to fill my position for the two weeks.

So yeah all you honorable guys, and all you women here, I thank you big time.   
And sure, I’ll just suck it up and use my two weeks vacation next year to do it again.

And a great P. S. here also.  Just a couple of days ago I get an email from Olga.  Said she was thinking she would divorce her husband soon.  And she thought she and I should try to make a go of it.  After all she said, we already had a good written and phone conversation going.  Yeah, I think I will go for that; honorable family and such.

[Ade]

Funny but I'm a little suspicious that you're just a WOVO vs WMVM troll.

[Turboguy]

I don't get that impression SJ.    Most of the things he is describing are very similar to things that happened to me and took me to the point of being very against WOVO.

Actually his story reminds me most of about my third trip ever to meet Nina in Krasnodar.  First letter I ever got from her, butt ugly photo and the most beautiful letter you could dream of.  Second letter, beautiful photo and beautiful letter.   I made the trip and she had no Enlish.  The letters had been written by her married friend who translated for her and us.  In reality the person in the letters had been the friend and Nina really was an attractive but nasty person.   

[Ade]

I don't get that impression SJ.    Most of the things he is describing are very similar to things that happened to me and took me to the point of being very against WOVO.

Just call me a sceptic. Maybe his post reminds me a little too much of someone that used to post here that was a rabidly against VO...

FWIW, if a VO goes south and you've done any sort of research (which he apparently did) then I think you'd have to be pretty dumb not to have some viable options to make the trip worthwhile. So I guess his pseudonym fits.

Oh, and just for the record, I think that anyone attempting to form a long term relationship with someone across the other side of the world with only 2 weeks possible vacation time per year is treading the thin line of silliness to start with and is heading down a path that is unlikely to lead anywhere good. I mean, really, if this girl had been awesome what would he have done? Tell her to hang on for a year until he comes back for another fortnight? Proposed and been a two-week wonder? It's all just silly. Some people should just stay at home. 

[I/O]

So now the very honorable WOVO idea was coming face to face with the reality of honor in the FSU.

Are you saying there is no honor among thieves?

[Gator]

StupidGuy,

Welcome to RWD!

Great report!  You really captured the roller coaster feelings a man has when he has great expectations prior to departure yet becomes disappointed upon arrival.  Been there, done that.  I don't have the T-shirt, but maybe Turbo does.


You will have to ignore the WOVO men.  Just because it worked for them does not mean it will work for someone else (or even for them if they tried again).

You know that diversification is important in investing.  The same goes with meeting RW.  There have been many sad stories where the joy built up from 100 emails and phone calls disappeared in 5 minutes.

The "small stomach bulge high up like men get" is prevalent among the 40s Slavic women who looked like sticks when young.  Their arse and thighs still look good, unlike many a AW their age.

While looks are important, personality is preeminent and is what you should focus on when calling.  Except this does not work when talking to a substitute.  A pinch hitter - that is a first.  Congratulations for adding to the lore of meeting RW.

Stay around please.

[kievstar]

I would not call yourself a stupid guy.  You got on a plane and went.  Knew something was not right. 

I like the write never visit many approach.  Works for every man I know who follows it like I tell them how to do it (how to do it is important).  But in your case I can not recommend that unless you get more vacation time than 1 visit per year.

[Gylden]

StupidGuy,

What a story! Also, to be straight forward, what a line of crap (can I say crap on here?). If you want to be an honorable man you shouldn't be blaming others for YOUR own mistakes. You need to sort out who you are first and then follow what ever ethics you decide are your ethics. I have participated in some of those debates (WOVO/WMVM) and although I recall much disagreement about it I allways remember that the conclusion was for each to decide what is right for himself.

Look through those old threads and you will see successes on both sides.

Anyway, sorry to hear about your disappointing trip. Use your experience to learn from and make better decisions for the next time.

[Faux Pas]

Stupidguy,

Don't beat yourself up too much over this. You got caught up in a scheming plot of twisted sisters. Seems you "tried" to do everything right and but just got caught in a  catch 22  as many first timers.

 A couple of questions do come to mind:

 - Why did you plan a WOVO? The trend lately seems to be WMVM.

 - Had you found a woman and hit it off with her, what was your next move? Wait until next year to see her again when you have more vacation?

 - Did you get the apartment you thought you rented? Did you see pictures before you sent money? Sounds like the old "bait and switch". What was wrong with the apartment specifically? Not to make light of your predicament but you were bait and switched regularly on this trip.

 - What exactly was your back up plan, did you have one or try to put one together when the twisted sisters thing revealed itself?

Some observations and tit for tat:

 - You seemed to plan for failure on this trip and with this woman before you ever left the US.

 - You obviously actually did some form of due diligence because you came to RWD. That was good, there is lots to learn here especially when you participate and ask the pertinent questions to your situation. But your trip by your own admission reeks of failure from the beginning to the end.

 - You actually went and that is admirable but you planned to fail. For a WOVO trip formulating a quasi relationship through much communication is vital before embarking on the trip itself.

 - I sense your mindset was basically that of placing an order, paying the appropriate fees and traveling to meet your "lucky woman".

Stupidguy, your heart and apparently your will is in the right place but, your planning and due diligence is really whacked. You are in a not so exclusive club of hundreds of thousands of guys that have done this before and met the same fate you did. You are far from alone in that regard. What determines your ultimate fate is what you do from this point forward. Do you learn from those mistakes and plow ahead or do you sit mired in this muck and feel sorry for yourself. There are a hundred or more ways to go about this and 50 or more of those ways are destined to fail. The trick is figuring out which is which.

I enjoyed you trip report. Thanks for posting it.

Good luck.

 

[groovlstk]

So yeah all you honorable guys, and all you women here, I thank you big time.   
And sure, I’ll just suck it up and use my two weeks vacation next year to do it again.

If you were reading RWD prior to your trip you would have known that there are risks in whichever path you selected - WOVO, WMVM, or whatever - and that months of correspondence and excitement could disappear into vapor within 5 minutes of the first meeting.

If there's nothing else that the constant WOVO vs. WMVM debates are good for, they highlight the associated risks and if you chose wrong you have only yourself to blame.

[Shadow]

Stupidguy, could you inform me of some things.

1. Where are you from and where do you live ?
2. In which ' dull'  city were you ,and could you not travel around to see the country you wish to find a wife from ?
3. If you have really read around here you would see that the real advice is to do what you are used to at home. Are you used to multiple dates ?
4. With only 2 weeks holiday a year, how did you plan the progress of the relationship ?

I have some very valid reasons to doubt this story.

[Blues Fairy]

IMHO there's nothing stupid about your trip, just some really bad luck.  Could happen to anyone (and did, to many of us). 

Finding love, not just a tolerable match you can settle on but true love, is a rare thing - that's why when I searched I didn't shoot for love; just true friendship.  It took me 3 years to form one.  When one looks for a true friend without any bigger designs, the chances of being deceived like that are much, much lower.  With the next gal you focus on (if you do), ask yourself a test question: would you still communicate with her if you were NOT looking for marriage?  Is she interesting enough, loyal enough, good enough as a person to be your friend without any bigger design? 

Would the virtual "Natalia" have passed this test?

[Gylden]

BF,

 

One of the more "down to earth" posts I have heard!!

[Jack]

Well SJ and Shadow, you can call me stupid as well because I buy this guy's post hook, line and sinker.  Which to you non-southerns mean I buy his story. Why? I have seen the same type story from a hundred men who also went the wovo route.

SG experience is a great educator. After I did my one and only wovo I swore never to do so again,and never did.  If you, or any man is comfortable dating, seeing more than one woman on a two, three week trip, go for it.  If your the type of guy who can only see one women on a two, three week trip, go for it.

[Turboguy]

Oh, and just for the record, I think that anyone attempting to form a long term relationship with someone across the other side of the world with only 2 weeks possible vacation time per year is treading the thin line of silliness to start with and is heading down a path that is unlikely to lead anywhere good.

In a perfect world we would all have unlimited vacation time and unlimited money to work with but there will always be guys doing this with less income than many feel necessary and less vacation time than they should have.

People succeed by knowing their strenghts and weaknesses and finding ways to live with the limitations they have to deal with.   For example if someone has only two weeks vacation time but can take them seperately and on the week before a holiday weekend those two weeks can be stretched out to two 10 day trips.  Sometimes they could take a couple of personal days in conjunction with a holiday weekend and make a couple more 4 or 5 day trips.  It is not enough but there are lots of guys get engaged to women they spend less time with.

[Gylden]

In a perfect world we would all have unlimited vacation time and unlimited money to work with but there will always be guys doing this with less income than many feel necessary and less vacation time than they should have.

People succeed by knowing their strenghts and weaknesses and finding ways to live with the limitations they have to deal with.   For example if someone has only two weeks vacation time but can take them seperately and on the week before a holiday weekend those two weeks can be stretched out to two 10 day trips.  Sometimes they could take a couple of personal days in conjunction with a holiday weekend and make a couple more 4 or 5 day trips.  It is not enough but there are lots of guys get engaged to women they spend less time with.

Good point Turboguy,

I really feel bad about the fact that most men from the US feel themselves in this position and have to squeeze in enough time on vacation to try to get to know their gals. It just forces some guys to get married before they really are confident that things will work out, add to that the big shock and pressure the gals get when they arrive to get married and discover what culture shock is all about all the while feeling the pressure with the commitment the K1 creates.

[Daveman]

Good point Turboguy,

I really feel bad about the fact that most men from the US feel themselves in this position and have to squeeze in enough time on vacation to try to get to know their gals. It just forces some guys to get married before they really are confident that things will work out, add to that the big shock and pressure the gals get when they arrive to get married and discover what culture shock is all about all the while feeling the pressure with the commitment the K1 creates.

Wholeheartedly agree that the current process as it is leaves MUCH to be desired.  We should have a K-Smart visa (not to be confused with the K-Mart, which is the blue light marriage special). The K-Smart visa would allow a woman to enter/leave the USA for a period of a year to live with, date, whatever. The man can still be responsible for her financially, etc, had to have met her in person, etc, similar to the K-1 but without the need to get married within 90 days and the freedom to visit home and reenter the USA multiple times.. This would give the two much less pressure to make a decision based on a couple of visits.  A pipe dream for sure as well as a can of worms of possible abuses of the system, but seemingly manageable with some forethought and practical application of common sense.

Note to self.. keep on dreamin'...

[Phil dAmore]

I don't know.  It all seems a little too vague for me.  No details of the city.  Nothing about the flight and going through customs.  A 'highly recommended' apartment service that remains nameless. 

IMO something is a little off the bubble here.

[CanadaMan]

On first read this report did sound fairly interesting.
I did read it again in light of what SJ said about it.
At this time I'm not really sure if it is legitimate or not.
Here are just a few reasons why the post does sound a bit suspicious:

-Lurking for about a year on RWD without posting a single message is a VERY difficult thing to do, especially when you are planning a trip yourself.

-Emphasing several times throughout the post that he did the "honorable" thing by going WOVO. Like someone had a gun to his head stating he must make a WOVO trip because that is what is gospel on RWD.

-In the end, rubbing it in that his 'honorable' WOVO had failed, as if he was seeking some revenge to some on RWD.

[Gylden]

Yeah.......now that you mention it......does anyone else see a resemblance between StupidGuy and Geraldo Rivera????

 

[Faux Pas]

I took it all at face value, not knowing if it is true or not but, accepting that it was. I have heard that someone who is smart enough to do some sniffing found that the posting originated in Ukraine. Don't ask me how I know because I won't tell you. All I know is, I am not smart enough to find that information

[Mir]

It certainly was written by someone who thinks WOVO men are stupid

[I/O]

IMO it is unimportant whether the report is legitimate or not at this point (Please don't spoil a thread before it runs it's course) as the report is actually a very good one. It is as it can happen and I had a borderline similar story on an occasion. I think the thread, if handled carefully, could turn out to be a very useful one.

Likely it will go down the VO vs VM road at some point and having done both (several times) I concluded shooting at the top end of town was easier from the VO angle, BUT......................I didn't really care too much how it turned out and I had time (If I so chose) to amble back for another "sus out" trip at another time or juncture.

Regardless of any of the above, VO or VM, opinions, honor  or anything else, I've long thought (And did) a first trip anywhere should have nothing much to do with finding partners. If that happens as a consequence, so be it but I maintain a first trip should be about the locale. Once one is up to speed on that, personal, emotional and other security are much more assured which provides a much safer launching platform into the romantic unknown.

B/F: Good post. Although we didn't have the forethought to plan such an angle, that's about exactly how it went for us. A friendship developed over more than a year with an eventual meeting expecting nothing more than a bit of sightseeing with a foreign friend.

[BillyB]

-Lurking for about a year on RWD without posting a single message is a VERY difficult thing to do, especially when you are planning a trip yourself.

It's normal there are more lurkers than people who participate and those who lurk usually first come out when something hits their hot button, have a bad or good experience to talk about or to make an announcement they got married.

If Stupidguy recommended an agency that one has to pay for every date with their ladies, then I'd be suspicous. So far I don't see him selling anything for personal gain.

[CanadaMan]

...If Stupidguy recommended an agency that one has to pay for every date with their ladies, then I'd be suspicous. So far I don't see him selling anything for personal gain.

You don't have to try to sell something on this site to be a troll.
He just came out with guns a blazin', railing at the WOVO advocators here, in his debut nonetheless. It just seems like a strange way to introduce yourself here, that's all I'm saying.

And having the message sent from the Ukraine (if F.P. is correct) doesn't really add up for someone who is back in the U.S..