married and divorced...

[BillyB]

Why would the thought of a friend dumping you even cross your mind  ??? 

I don't know? Maybe because you are hellbent in proving my friends are insincere? If they are insincere and they end their friendship with me because I don't offer them a vacation, should I cry over my loss or should I say "NEXT!!!"?

[Gator]

Pretty simple: because without an economic advantage and shiny blue passport, most of these guys would have to date within their league - which means the RW living locally wouldn't give them the time of day.

I have met a few local, divorced RW.   Although pretty and in good shape, I would not call many of them "ideal wife material."  To the contrary, I understand why they are divorced.  :hairraising:

In New York City, you surely encounter more divorced RW than I do.

I have been most impressed by the RW who entered America on a student visa, completing her studies, and finding a good job.  They stayed, eventually marrying a level headed AM.  They are too young for me, however, which is part of your explanation.

[Daveman]

But don't forget....

AM never, ever lie, cheat, steal, or god forbid get drunk.. They make the most wonderful, secure, patient, supportive husbands on the planet!

Underneath it all, many AM seem to be looking for RW for the very same reasons RM in the US do.

The OP submits that RW are not that different than AW based on his experience.  One might find that a good many RW, once they hit their new turf, find that AM aren't that different than RM.

Indeed! and that's my point! We're gods!  

The point isn't that one is bad and the other good -- the proverbial battle between good and evil... my point is about real love, and the nuance of basic incompatibilities in understanding and often respect which hinders the growth of that love between RW/AM which binds partners together for life.

I remember a post from Groov some days ago, maybe a  couple of weeks, mentioning that Russian people think that the percentage of RW who do not love their AM husbands is close to 100%.  While I don't believe that 100% statistic, there is sound reasoning and traceable causes to support such a supposition.  My approach -- if this could be true, why would it be true?  I'm a firm believer that pretty much everything has a cause/effect relationship and absolutely leaves clues as to the why -- if we are willing to take the time to break things down into the interacting parts.  Why are these relationships difficult between two "honest and decent" people who by all appearances seem to fit together?

I think the bottom line in most cases is the knee-jerk reactionary responses programmed by family, society, and culture.  For example, what is a "man" supposed to be?  I think we'll all agree that a woman can't love someone she doesn't see as a "man".  So where does her definition of 'real man' originate?  Family, culture, societal norms.  It's reactionary. She probably can't articulate her definition completely or accurately... she just *knows* it when she *sees/feels* it.  

Yes, RW and AW are similar, and humans are 98% the same as chimpanzees... a little difference goes a long way..  Perhaps we don't need  to crack the RW genetic code, but understanding what makes her who she is and why could assist in eliminating a few potential problems long term.  

[BillyB]

However, this does not apply to a RM trying to date RW in the United States whether they are in L.A. or Boston or anywhere else. If he can't date a hot woman from New York, he won't be able to date a hot woman from elsewhere simply by flying her to him 

How do you know what applies to RM? Maybe some RM who have good character and has money found out their ideal woman based on beauty is located elsewhere? Rich guys may not have time to travel to other cities so they prefer to fly the women to them.

Are you normal or above average? Will you tell your current wife that since you have no problems attracting women, if you had to do it all over again, you would not fly anywhere in the World to meet her when you can find someone of equal or better quality in your own home town?

I have met a few local, divorced RW.   Although pretty and in good shape, I would not call many of them "ideal wife material."

I've met some RW that I don't remain friends with because they aren't ideal wife material. Some friends of mine are ideal wife material but just not for me. When RW I've dated think I'm not right for them, they usually cut off all contact with me. They usually don't waste much time with a guy they don't see as a potential soul mate/lover.

[Misha]

I don't know? Maybe because you are hellbent in proving my friends are insincere? If they are insincere and they end their friendship with me because I don't offer them a vacation, should I cry over my loss or should I say "NEXT!!!"?

Quite simple. I don't offer my friends vacations, and I don't worry about being "dumped" (a term usually applied to people dating) by friends with or without vacations being offered 

[Misha]

I remember a post from Groov some days ago, maybe a  couple of weeks, mentioning that Russian people think that the percentage of RW who do not love their AM husbands is close to 100%.  ...  Why are these relationships difficult between two "honest and decent" people who by all appearances seem to fit together?

The thing is, Dave, is that by all appearances they do not fit. Generally such marriage involve a much older and/or a much less attractive man. People will automatically assume that in such cases it is a marriage of convenience (по расчёту in Russian).

[GQBlues]

I remember a post from Groov some days ago, maybe a  couple of weeks, mentioning that Russian people think that the percentage of RW who do not love their AM husbands is close to 100%.  While I don't believe that 100% statistic, there is sound reasoning and traceable causes to support such a supposition.  My approach -- if this could be true, why would it be true?  I'm a firm believer that pretty much everything has a cause/effect relationship and absolutely leaves clues as to the why -- if we are willing to take the time to break things down into the interacting parts.  Why are these relationships difficult between two "honest and decent" people who by all appearances seem to fit together?

It has very little to do with being honest or decent. It will almost always take a backseat to cultural alliances - at least on the onset. Unless you folks experienced and have full understanding of what it's like to immigrate then it'll be difficult to fully appreciate this dynamic. I've said before, people involved in this affair seem to take marrying from within one's own culture greatly for granted. Then add to that the usual disparities found in the MOB i.e. age, physical appearances, local knowledge, societal norms, etc..and you'll almost always yield realistic relationship difficulties - even from two honest and decent individuals.

I run counter to what most people trumpet around here. Strictly on the basis of this discussion, the younger ones do in fact will have an easier transitional experience, and thereby easier time distancing themselves to their culture and people than the older ones. That's just natural.

* disclaimer: I am not advocating looking for someone based on age as a life partner. *

If you reverse this entire situation and you had AM marrying and moving to Russia and living and fully submitting to it's societal norms instead, you'll likely gravitate to a group or community of Americans in the region sooner than later. Not because you're not a honest or decent bloke, but because comfort is found amongst those with common cultural ways. Americans, just like Russians, removed from other Americans for a time, will always seem excited and/or relieved when they meet one in a faraway place. Language is just one clear example of this cultural pull. Exception to this is obvious, and that is if the person is averse to it's own cultural norm, OR, young enough to easily adjust.

When men say they can easily date the same type of women they find in FSU and/or other regions that they do here at home, I always tell them to simply stay at home if they're intent is to get married. I remember jb telling me that years ago right after my first trip, I just didn't realize the wisdom of it until a couple of years later. Fortunately I had 2 things that went my way, a) My wife is young enough to adjust AND she IS a vibrant and wonderful woman, b) I, myself, sprung from a culture more 'in-tuned' to my wife's than the one we both live in. I consider myself 'of this culture' (American) but do understand and lived another. That helped greatly in my relations with my wife.

edited to get back to the topic question:

If Heaven forbid something happened and I get divorced from my wife, then to answer the OP's question of will I go to FSU again to find another? The answer will be absolutely and empathically "NO". Ther are millions and millions of incredibly beautiful and wonderful women here in the USofA. Some of them are actually from Russia. 

[Turboguy]

Generally such marriage involve a much older and/or a much less attractive man. People will automatically assume that in such cases it is a marriage of convenience (по расчёту in Russian).

Actually MSN has an article on their site today that involved a study of how happy a couple was when
a.  The man is more attractive than the woman
b.  The couple is evenly matched on looks
c.  The woman is more attractive than the man.

The winner, hands down was the beautiful woman with the not so handsome man.  Couples where the man is more attractive or they are even are far less happy.  Gosh, makes me glad I am just plain old dumpy me and not a Brad Pitt look alike. 

[Misha]

The winner, hands down was the beautiful woman with the not so handsome man. 

She may be happier, but the people around her will still wonder why she married him  Except of course if he is very rich  :evil:

[Turboguy]

The writer of the article seemed to feel that a handsome man with a so so wife takes her for granted because he can get other women easily.  He doesn't appreciate her.  The same was pretty much the case with a couple who are even in looks.   The so so guy with the beautiful wife however pays a lot of attention to her and makes her feel special.  They didn't say he had to be rich.

[Misha]

They didn't say he had to be rich.

I didn't refer to their feelings, I said that other people looking at the couple would assume that a beautiful woman would be with a less than attractive only for the money. Our societies expect that beautiful people should be with beautiful people, happy or not  :evil:

[Gator]

I didn't refer to their feelings, I said that other people looking at the couple would assume that a beautiful woman would be with a less than attractive only for the money. Our societies expect that beautiful people should be with beautiful people, happy or not  :evil:

Many narrow minded people are judgmental and would perhaps make that conclusion.  However, I assert that there are more determinants for a marriage of two souls other than both are equally attractive (or unattractive) or the unattractive mate is wealthy.  For example, he may be packing 25 cm.

[Misha]

Many narrow minded people are judgmental and would perhaps make that conclusion.  However, I assert that there are more determinants for a marriage of two souls other than both are equally attractive (or unattractive) or the unattractive mate is wealthy.  For example, he may be packing 25 cm.

Perhaps, but it comes back to a comment made: why do Russians living in the United States assume that Russian wives married to Americans do not love their husbands? Well, it boils down to this. If they see a very attractive woman with a man much older and much less attractive man, they will assume that she married for reasons other than love, no matter how well endowed he may or may not have been and even if she swears on the bible that she is as happy as she could be. It is human nature, and too often people are proven right.

[Gator]

Perhaps, but it comes back to a comment made: why do Russians living in the United States assume that Russian wives married to Americans do not love their husbands?

Okay.  I see your point.

The assumption is mostly correct according to a disputed survey conducted 10 years ago of MOB marriages.  The research reported among other conclusions:

6.   60% of the women did not love their husbands when they married
7.   99% of the men 'loved' their wives when they married.

In most of the marriages surveyed, the husband and wife had become engaged within two weeks of first meeting.

I contend that this results from the abnormally compressed decision time,  cultural differences, and the woman not being on equal footing with the man.  Throw in age disparity and language barrier, and it is a miracle that love does occur. 

I do not believe that most RW marry with a hidden agenda or for a passport.  I believe most RW actually marry in good faith hoping that love will come and everything will be satisfactory.

[Misha]

I do not believe that most RW marry with a hidden agenda or for a passport.  I believe most RW actually marry in good faith hoping that love will come and everything will be satisfactory.

Maybe, but they quickly realize they have other options as, unlike Russia or elsewhere in the FSU, they have many more eligible men that they could potentially date if they left their husbands  All of a sudden, they will have the type of men hitting of them in the USA (or Canada) that would have largely ignored them back home, and the will to make in work in the hopes that love is much more likely to be weakened IMHO.

[Gator]

All of a sudden, they will have the type of men hitting of them in the USA (or Canada) that would have largely ignored them back home...

Yes, hitting on them, but just to go to bed.  Will these AM love them in the morning? 

A lot of fun loving, vigorous AM are looking for fun, not marriage.  It's natural.  It's unnatural the other way.  I never went on a first date with an AW wondering if she was wife material.  I respected her, of course, but never thought about marriage or even becoming serious until after many dates.

The AM pursuit of RW in Russia is unnatural.  I assume most AM who venture to the FSU are committed to marriage and are indeed choosing RW based on wife criteria.   KenC wrote a lot about men taking this to the extreme, figuratively hanging a sign around their neck saying "Wife Vacancy."

Not sure what you mean by "...would have largely ignored them back home..."  The RM would never ignore a good looking RW.  He would happily bring some flowers and a bottle of vodka to a RW's flat, eat her food, drink his vodka and enjoy sex.

[Misha]

Yes, hitting on them, but just to go to bed.  Will these AM love them in the morning? 

Women are prone to fall in lust love as well as men and they are just as capable of deluding themselves into believing that the hot bad boy will love them in the morning  :evil: But, given that men tend to marry later in North America than Russia, you will have many more eligible, decent bachelors in their 30s than would be the case in Russia IMHO.

Not sure what you mean by "...would have largely ignored them back home..."  The RM would never ignore a good looking RW.  He would happily bring some flowers and a bottle of vodka to a RW's flat, eat her food, drink his vodka and enjoy sex.

Sure, but would he marry her? Also, a woman in her thirties even if she is very attractive, will still start falling off the radar of the most eligible Russian men (i.e. those with good jobs and money). Throw in a child or two, and her chances of finding an attractive man with money become more and more difficult....

[JR]

Married to a Russian woman for ten years. Divorce and am looking to marry another FSUW.

As for what Daveman said in his original post in the thread I have to agree about lying, cheating etc being accepted a the norm to get ahead. My ex saw it this way.

As for it being the norm with the general population who can say? Perhaps it is that with the small percentage of the FSUW population who are looking for a foreign man the "ticket" out is seen as the fast lane to the rich life? So maybe a good portion of the available ladies lie, cheat etc to get what they want? The two just may go hand in hand as a general rule.

[tfcrew]

.. I am free but I just dont have the desire anymore to travel there ... its not interesting to me anymore at all...

By all means then, don't.
Travel to Eastern Europe is difficult.
Doubt if I would pursue another relationship over there either.
Travel anywhere now is seeming more risky.
Esp Latin America or Eastern Asia. 

[Daveman]

Perhaps, but it comes back to a comment made: why do Russians living in the United States assume that Russian wives married to Americans do not love their husbands? Well, it boils down to this. If they see a very attractive woman with a man much older and much less attractive man, they will assume that she married for reasons other than love, no matter how well endowed he may or may not have been and even if she swears on the bible that she is as happy as she could be. It is human nature, and too often people are proven right.

Agreed... that's takes care of a good percentage of the naysayers... which brings us to...

...  I believe most RW actually marry in good faith hoping that love will come and everything will be satisfactory.

So, why doesn't she? and why isn't it?

I still think, removing the absurd cases, that it boils down to expectation/projections foiled by misunderstanding (a mismatch of programming - what she expects him to be is a little different -- measured by her system of beliefs/whatever you want to call it -- than what he really is, and not money or lifestyle) leading to lack of respect.  Certainly there are also times when a woman "settles" for a man, in which case it is unlikely that love would ever grow. 

GQ made an excellent post upthread about the immigration process being off the wall tough on her, and thus both.  No doubt that is true and responsible for a large number of breakups.  Often times that could also be related to the above.

I think all of this is directly related to the big picture implied in the OP's original question...    Married, divorced, and the painintheassness of many aspects.  :evil:

[wiz]

That is why if you find a RW who seems above this, even though it is chronic in the FSU culture, you have indeed found a gem.

That is absolutely true and finding a gem is not that easy, because who ever created this world has not left gems lying around on the surface, you must dig deep and hard to find one and you have to be lucky too! 

A Rough Diamonds needs also lots of polishing to show its brilliance! 

[Son of Clyde]

I was at a party yesterday with mostly people age 50 and older.
There were two young couples at the party.
Very attractive and slender late 20's woman and handsome late 30's guy.
I went all day thinking the attractive man and woman were a couple.
As the party ended the slender 20's woman left with her husband, a late 20's overweight, balding guy. The handsome 30 something guy left with a tall overweight woman. Ends up the two very attractive people were brother and sister. Love has no boundries so you can never judge by appearances alone. None of these people were unattractive, but two of them were a bit overweight. All day I was assuming the overweight lady and overweight man were married to each other.

[Misha]

All day I was assuming the overweight lady and overweight man were married to each other.

You proved my point. People will always assume that attractive people will be married to other attractive people 

[CanadaMan]

Does she own a marriage agency? In all of my involvement with Russians I've seen no evidence to support this. Don't kid yourself it is only Russian Men who initiate divorce.

 Perhaps you meant to say: "Don't kid yourself, it is NOT only Russian Men who initiate divorce." ?

[Daveman]

You proved my point. People will always assume that attractive people will be married to other attractive people 

Well, I agree with that. People will assume, etc etc...  BUT, even so I think there is a lot of truth that RW do not love their AM husbands.  Perhaps I am the only one who believes this.  Of course the men are in love because of the obvious nature of men.  Most will absolutely fall in love with a picture and a dream, even with AW. 

What's that old addage?  I can't remember exactly but something like -  A woman falls in love with what she thinks a man will become (or what she can change him into), and the man falls in love with what she is and hopes she'll never change.

Well, to him "what she is" is a hot body, pretty face, and of course ---- not fat.  That's one nail in the coffin going into this.

SO, what does the RW woman fall in love with? and how does that relate to the international dating scene, and how does it impact the probability of successful long term relationships?

I think we can pool our cranial acumen and actually tackle this on several levels... remove the 80yr men married to 20yr old women from the equation... and the guys who never get past the face and bod and dream that every pretty gal is an angel (probably 50% of the failures right there with those two categories? I don't know)... 

I guess I am just tired of the same old topics.. we have a collective IQ on this forum that's probably rather astounding.. let's do something with it.