married and divorced...

[Misha]

BUT, even so I think there is a lot of truth that RW do not love their AM husbands.

No, I would agree with it as well. The reason IMHO is that the men it seems to me try to woo women with photos of their houses, cars, yachts, and will impress them by the size of their wallets. Rather than trying to seduce women with wit and charm and finding a woman who will love them for who they are, they seek an easy way to find the hottest woman they can marry as quickly as possible. There are exceptions, but they do seem to be rare. Or, you will have the men who are clearly being used, but they will hear nothing of it. I certain prolific poster comes to mind, but I will bite my tongue 

[GQBlues]

BUT, even so I think there is a lot of truth that RW do not love their AM husbands.  Perhaps I am the only one who believes this.  Of course the men are in love because of the obvious nature of men.  Most will absolutely fall in love with a picture and a dream, even with AW. 

Blame love when there's nothing left to blame. A very common (mis)conception.

I have never subscribe to the notion of love at first sight. It matters little if you threw endless anecdote of people falling in love at first sight of their inamorata. Folks throw the silly word quite blindly and carelessly. This is largely the reason why so many men are left quivering and gasping once they realize the labor of their desperation.

A wise ol' man who graced this adventure before gave a term that best suit the state of most, if not all of the men who found themselves in this pursuit. He term this state Limerence'.


- An involuntary cognitive and emotional state of intense romantic desire for another person.
- The ultimate, near-obsessive form of romantic love, sometimes also referred to as infatuation.
- Infatuation includes aspects of immaturity and extrapolating from insufficient information, and is usually short-lived.
- Can often be what is meant when one expresses having intense feelings of attachment and preoccupations with the love object.
- It can be experienced as intense joy or as extreme despair, depending on whether the feelings are reciprocated.
- Characterized by intrusive thinking and pronounced sensitivity to external events that reflect the disposition of the limerent object towards the individual.
- The state of being completely carried away by unreasoned passion or love; addictive love. Usually, one is inspired with an intense passion or admiration for someone.
- A common emotion characterized by unrealistic expectations of blissful passion without positive relationship growth or development.
- It is distinguished by a lack of trust, loyalty, commitment, and reciprocity.
In the case of limerence, there is more often than not an obsessor and an object of desire, who may or may not be attainable.

Consider most of the stories you read on these boards and you can easily and objectively define each of the men's actions by those highlighted above.

Now, consider for a minute the typical man involved in the MOB. Consider the (emotional) state of the majority of the men who are on this adventure. Consider the age(s). Lack of emotional gratifications, loneliness, attention deficit, etc. States which can make any man weak, vulnerable, and utterly unstable.

LOVE never had anything to do with any of this. FWIW, for most, LOVE never had the proper time required to seed and grow. LOVE is something that never took place.

[Blues Fairy]

SO, what does the RW woman fall in love with?

It is entirely possible for any woman to fall in love with the way a man loves her and treats her, regardless of his own characteristics.  Especially if such a woman has low self-esteem and was raised in a belief that it's more important to be loved than to love (a case with many RW, sadly).

[Gator]

The reason IMHO is that the men it seems to me try to woo women with photos of their houses, cars, yachts, and will impress them by the size of their wallets. Rather than trying to seduce women with wit and charm and finding a woman who will love them for who they are, they seek an easy way to find the hottest woman they can marry as quickly as possible. There are exceptions, but they do seem to be rare.

Misha, you write with a high degree of certainty as if you have met a number of divorced couples.  Are you not from a small Canadian city?  How do you know this is a prevalent theme.

In the Tampa area, the FSUW have created a social organization of 250 women in the 25-50 age group.  I have been to some of the sub-gatherings and met many married couples.  I have no idea what the men did to woo their wives.  Judging by some of the situations, I don't think it was a car or wallet.

What is critical to this discussion is that the number of married couples exceeds the number of divorces.  

The couples that seem to be doing the best are those with common children and those in which the wife entered the US on a student visa at age 21, graduated, stayed and eventually married.   A couple of these women have a superb career underway.  One happily married RW came over as a professional tennis player.

The divorced women are all types.  There is no common theme among the divorcees, although I have always ignored the divorce talk and preferred to have some wine or mojito while discussing politics or sports.  A couple of the divorced RW are tedious and seemed doomed to be past from man to man.  Clearly the men who brought them here did not spend a lot of time before becoming engaged.

[Gator]

It is entirely possible for any woman to fall in love with the way a man loves her and treats her, regardless of his own characteristics.  Especially if such a woman has low self-esteem and was raised in a belief that it's more important to be loved than to love (a case with many RW, sadly).

Good point BF. 

Is this the case with "many" RW?  I met a couple RW who kept stressing how they wanted me to treat them, asking what I was feeling, questioning what I thought about their beauty, etc.  What a turnoff. 

Every woman wants some reassurance, and a man better give it, yet a confident woman would never behave as such, at least not in the first couple of days.  Given your theory, I should have turned the tables and proposed to them the same questions that they were asking.

[Misha]

Gator, I just have to read the innumerable threads here about prenups and how much money a man must have to successfully court a RW to understand the approach that most men apparently take as they venture to the FSU. It is telling that they obsess with losing money as opposed to wondering whether they are truly loved...

[Makkin]

Yea Misha,


  The whole process is one that only the brave can muster.


   Having been in this thing for well over ten years and still have not married leads me to wonder if I ever will...lol. I'm sure if I had married a few years or so back I'd have made a huge leap of faith and probably my leap would have been into a canyon of sorts....lol.


   I keep studying and learning and mostly I've learned about myself so no matter what happens it's a positive process full of interesting facts and assumptions.

[Shostakovich]

SO, what does the RW woman fall in love with?

If this were easy, someone would have solved it already or, the answer is there but no one wants to accept it.  I'm going with the later option.

Your question begins in the wrong place.

1. Start with what do humans fall in love with
2. Next consider what women fall in love with
3. Next consider individual variants that influence women across the globe
4. Next consider cultural elements that further distinguish FSUW

If you can manage 1-3 I'd estimate you've got 99% of it.  One reason many of the discussions on this board fail is that they often focus on 4 to the exclusion of other more general and important factors. 

One reason for that is that "love", or stable relationships, are not what is sought by the people who undertake this business.  It's about the adventure, by in large, the big-game hunt.  Quite a few do not want to accept that and seek instead to obscure the business of lust/fun/whatever with some halo of love, in order to make it seem respectable. 

There are resources that can inform these questions, but those are only for bookish people like me.  Shopenhaur's "Metaphysics of love between the sexes", for example: quite a hoot. 

Unfortunately, the resources of a group often do not pool in a collective way.  For that to happen, each perspective must add new information, if only incrementally.  That is a process most, in an informal group like this, do not have the patience for nor really desire.  It seems that online communities are often territorial and divisive.  Constructive dialog is the exception rather than the rule.       

Love binds the two in a common direction and that happens when the two find a vision that takes them, collectively, to the next level as people.

When one makes a measurement, one needs to first establish the baseline to ensure that the measurement indicates something significant.  American marriages fail between 50-70% of the time.  In order to say that A-R relationships are less stable means that they must fail at rate significantly greater than that.

Romantic love is great and wondrous and if it is your good fortune to find it then well and fine: it can be a great starting point, but it is over-rated as romance is generally illusory.  Romance does not betoken stability.  Good relationships are created through mutual compatibility and a process of patient building.  There are elements of sacrifice and trade-off that need to be acknowledged.  But that is work for people with level heads.  Thrill seekers are not likely to succeed. 

[CanadaMan]

1. Start with what do humans fall in love with
2. Next consider what women fall in love with
3. Next consider individual variants that influence women across the globe
4. Next consider cultural elements that further distinguish FSUW

Shosty I like the way you think and express yourself.
You've got a great head on your shoulders.
But according to your specs, you're still single. You should be married and giving us advice like so many of the others here. 

Seriously, you're a sharp cookie, there's no doubt about it.
I am just curious as to where you are from because your English has some interesting quirks to it.

[Misha]

Romantic love is great and wondrous and if it is your good fortune to find it then well and fine: it can be a great starting point, but it is over-rated as romance is generally illusory.

Personally, I did not want to marry any woman unless she had fallen passionately in love with me and unless I was certain that there was a romantic connection. Then, I made certain that there was enough compatibility, shared values, respect and all the other things that would be necessary for a long-term relationship. I was not willing to settle for less.

I am curious, why do you think that it is so difficult to find a woman who will fall in love with a man?

[Gator]

Gator, I just have to read the innumerable threads here about prenups and how much money a man must have to successfully court a RW to understand the approach that most men apparently take as they venture to the FSU. It is telling that they obsess with losing money as opposed to wondering whether they are truly loved...

Just as I thought.  You are presuming much.   The above statement does not support your previous statement that men are finding "...the hottest woman they can marry as quickly as possible. There are exceptions, but they do seem to be rare."


You usually write with some foundation and precision.  These two recent posts have about the same amount of vigor as agency hype, albeit coming from the opposite side.  I wonder why you forsook your normal style.  Frankly, it smacks of arrogant superiority rather than an analysis of what you truly know.

FYI, prenups and money required to marry a RW are not related.

[Misha]

You usually write with some foundation and precision.  These two recent posts have about the same amount of vigor as agency hype, albeit coming from the opposite side.  I wonder why you forsook your normal style.  Frankly, it smacks of arrogant superiority rather than an analysis of what you truly know.

My, I seem to have touched a nerve. Let's factor in all the threads asking "is she a pro dater" into the mix. And, the frequent discussion as to how much you must earn to marry a RW, and it is clear to me based on reading such forums that men more often than not seduce or seek to seduce with money and belongings as opposed to their charming personalities 

[Shostakovich]

I am curious, why do you think that it is so difficult to find a woman who will fall in love with a man?

I did not say I thought it was difficult.  In fact, especially in this enterprise, I think love is easy.  There is the allure of the foreigner, the two maybe are in a vacation spot, cash flows more freely, no responsibilities to test interaction in a serious way, the girl is pretty and people love those who are attracted to/love them.  It is a perfect mix for love. 

Most 'love', or more precisely, romance, is illusion.  It may be a good start but does not indicate long term success. 

[Shostakovich]

But according to your specs, you're still single. You should be married and giving us advice like so many of the others here. 

I am just curious as to where you are from because your English has some interesting quirks to it.

Yes, marriage is a business I've been skeptical of: Most fail, a good share of the remainder are mediocre and stay together because of kids/religion/fear of being single again.  That leaves, what: 5-10% which really thrive? 

Originally from Chicago, now in Seattle.  I read a lot, also I have the good fortune to work with people who care about words and who write well.  We criticize each other when we submit grants/publications make presentations etc.

[SMS60]

Misha, your starting to sound like a women. Hopefully someone did not hijack your acoount.

[Misha]

Misha, your starting to sound like a women. Hopefully someone did not hijack your acoount.

Perhaps that is why I am happily married 

[Misha]

I did not say I thought it was difficult.  In fact, especially in this enterprise, I think love is easy.  There is the allure of the foreigner, the two maybe are in a vacation spot, cash flows more freely, no responsibilities to test interaction in a serious way, the girl is pretty and people love those who are attracted to/love them.  It is a perfect mix for love. 

The challenge is trying to achieve the same thing on a date when you bring a woman to a village to plant some potatoes. Or, a date, at a cheap and dingy cafeteria in Russia  If a woman falls in love with you in mundane locations where you are spending next to nothing, then you will know she is a keeper IMHO  Still comes down to finding a woman who will fall for you and not the money you are spending 

[Blues Fairy]

If a woman falls in love with you in mundane locations where you are spending next to nothing, then you will know she is a keeper IMHO  Still comes down to finding a woman who will fall for you and not the money you are spending 

Misha, this is way too primitive.  Indifference to money an indicator of real love?  Hmmm. 
As I mentioned before, women may fall for men for a variety of reasons, money being far from the only one.  They may be just desperate for someone to love them (or their kids), regardless of whether they're in love with that person.  Such a motivation would pass your money test, however, IMHO, it's still a rather wobbly foundation for a long-term relationship.

[Misha]

Misha, this is way too primitive.  Indifference to money an indicator of real love?  Hmmm. 

Not total indifference, rather prioritizing the person not the wallet  Again, if you read my posts, you will see that I specify that it is important to ensure compatibility in values and goals in life. This will be much more important in the long run that the size of one bank account  :evil:

[Gylden]

Still comes down to finding a woman who will fall for you and not the money you are spending 

This is a pretty basic statement, I don't think anyone would disagree with it. However, to be a little more realistic, IMO women (FSU or otherwise), at a more mature stage of their lives or who are marrying or considering marrying an older/mature man, are almost certainly concerned with the mans financial condition. I think it is reasonable for her to be concerned in this area, especially if she has or is planning to have children. This matter, along with other pragmatic issues can certainly have an effect on the longevity of the marriage.
 

[Misha]

However, to be a little more realistic, IMO women (FSU or otherwise), at a more mature stage of their lives or who are marrying or considering marrying an older/mature man, are almost certainly concerned with the mans financial condition.

Boils down to the following IMHO. Does she meet a man, decide that he is a wonderful person, knows that yes she is in love and that he is truly a man worthy of marrying and then asking herself whether he will have the financial stability or the potential for financial stability to raise a family with him that he is worth the risk of marriage and moving to a foreign country. Or, is it a question of her asking whether she will be able to put up with him in order to benefit from his financial stability  Sure, nothing is perfect in life, but men should aim for the first as opposed to the latter.

[Gylden]

Boils down to the following IMHO. Does she meet a man, decide that he is a wonderful person, knows that yes she is in love and that he is truly a man worthy of marrying and then asking herself whether he will have the financial stability or the potential for financial stability to raise a family with him that he is worth the risk of marriage and moving to a foreign country. Or, is it a question of her asking whether she will be able to put up with him in order to benefit from his financial stability  Sure, nothing is perfect in life, but men should aim for the first as opposed to the latter.

Misha,
You seem to be stuck in a black or white world. I don't think it is anyones goal to be caught in your second scenario. Reading your other posts you seem to suggest that, if a woman is truly in love with a man then his financial situation doesn't matter and she wouldn't pay any attention to it. Myself I think there is a little more to it. Of course this is just my opinion, but from what I have read here most men are looking for intelligence in a woman too and most intelligent people are allways thinking about this pragmatic side as well as about chemistry or love. This is where judgement comes in and enough time and opportunity to really get to know each other.

[Gator]

My, I seem to have touched a nerve.

No nerve, just weary of blanket statements, especially those that characterize the vast majority of men with something that probably applies to a minority, perhaps a small minority.

Let's factor in all the threads asking "is she a pro dater" into the mix.

The type of men who wrote such threads typically did throw around his money only to discover later that she had no serious interest.  However, I assert that most RW are not pro daters.  Of the men involved with a pro dater:

    - How many willingly wanted to impress a RW with money? 

    - How many reluctantly spent his money thinking this is how its done in the FSU?

   - How many were just gullible and got fleeced by a pro. 

And, the frequent discussion as to how much you must earn to marry a RW...

Those discussions are very appropriate and usually come from a man of modest means who is legitimately concerned whether he can do this with a limited budget. These are not men who lead with their money.

...and it is clear to me based on reading such forums that men more often than not seduce or seek to seduce with money and belongings as opposed to their charming personalities 

A blanket statement as I discused in my first paragraph, and one that I find wrong, especially with the words  "More often than not." 

Just because a man will not dine at a cheap and dingy cafeteria does not mean he is leading with money.  I never planted potatoes, yet I did scrape parquet flooring.  And if the weather is nice I did wine, bread and cheese in the park (I will admit that life is too short to drink cheap wine).

[Gator]

Misha,
You seem to be stuck in a black or white world.

BINGO!

Reading your other posts you seem to suggest that, if a woman is truly in love with a man then his financial situation doesn't matter and she wouldn't pay any attention to it. Myself I think there is a little more to it.

There are plenty of poor RM who speak her language and who don't require her to leave her family, friends, country and culture.  Oh! I forget the blanket statement that all RM are drunkards and cheat on their wives.  Hence, a poor AM will do just fine.

This is where judgement comes in and enough time and opportunity to really get to know each other.

Even then, one can make a mistake, e. g. me.

[Misha]

Misha,
You seem to be stuck in a black or white world.

I disagree.

I don't think it is anyones goal to be caught in your second scenario. Reading your other posts you seem to suggest that, if a woman is truly in love with a man then his financial situation doesn't matter and she wouldn't pay any attention to it.

Some women won't. I know some RW who left a more financially stable man to be with a man that they had fallen in love with. I know another woman who stays with her husband, in spite of his not being financially stable, because she is in love. Again, unlike others on these forums, I am willing to recognize that RW are often motivated by love 

Myself I think there is a little more to it. Of course this is just my opinion, but from what I have read here most men are looking for intelligence in a woman too and most intelligent people are allways thinking about this pragmatic side as well as about chemistry or love. This is where judgement comes in and enough time and opportunity to really get to know each other.

In my experience, even the most pragmatic and the most intelligent woman can fall madly in love and will often do the most irrational things at that moment.