Big Agencies seem to get no love

[TeddyBear]

I understand now why Anastasia gets no love--seeing their name on the scammer sites numerous times is kinda alarming but of the big three, I thought one of them kinda was halfway decent.  But many here have been bashing their "tour" as a sex tour and frankly I don't see how that is possible in the internet age.  I agree, without true knowledge, the charge that tours kinda ruin things and are heavy handed for the one on one dating scene--this charge seems credible.  However, it seems that Anastasia is primarily the one doing the damage, why does the other company get vilified for the acts of Anastasia?

By the way I tried hard as heck to find the USA article about the charges of running a sex tour of the big three and just could not find it using either google or yahoo.  Please link it--I am really confused about all this.

I honestly thought tours was a vehicle to understand FSU mentality and dating traits and a means to explore your own desires to marry a women from such a culture.  Honestly, if I dated just 10 or so American women during a one week period--I would have come away thinking American women are the greatest women on earth.  It has only by virtue of dating American women over a long time and seeing my friends undergo marriage to them I have concluded in general it does make sense to date them in terms of risk management.

I personally don't want to end up being a women hater because I feel that is what American feminism is about ultimately--hating men and advocating lesbian love as the utopian ideal.  I don't think it is productive to use my time to work on an American woman and reason on her about the benefits of traditonal marriage.  Yet, I work hard, my businesses take up a alot fo my time and I need to search for other possiblities in a honorable and efficient way.  shrugs--I am confused aobut how to go about this.  One on one I just don't trust myself--frankly I think I might just go kinda of nuts and go girl crazed unless I had a guide help;ing me to evaluate what I am looking at.  I am not the best at judging character--I know in my field I am the best and I give great advice and I think those who ignore my advice are folls.  Therefire, I do not want to go to a different country and rely on extremly limited knowledge as the base to judge any experience I have over there.

My question is--will I get steered wrong on a tour by the more reputable one?

[Shadow]

Regarding tours, it depends on what you wish to get out of them.
If you want to test the waters and at least know how things look and feel, its a place to start. If you wish to meet a woman that might be actually interested in finding the right partner instead of meeting a mule, you might be better off finding your own way.

However if I see your view on American women, somehow I doubt that you will have much long-term luck in the FSU. Perhaps some introspection might do a better job as any tour.

As for Anastasia, they do not get their reputation for nothing. Most tours are filled with men who exchanged their brains for money, and get visited by women who love one part of the men most...his wallet.

[TeddyBear]

Shadow, you might be right about the attitude toward women in general thing.  Trust me, I don't want the bitterness of my divorced friends to destroy me.  Personally, for me I never got to date much because I was a combination of shy, a geek and poor in my teenage and early 20's.  Actually, I felt resigned to being a perpetual bachelor.  But seeing friends marry great women and then divorce monsters have really got me thinking very hard lately about love and life and I am thinking very hard about the possiblities of working outside the box so to say.  And also I very much want to have a family but I am clueless on how to win the heart of my special lady.

[groovlstk]

But seeing friends marry great women and then divorce monsters have really got me thinking very hard lately about love and life and I am thinking very hard about the possiblities of working outside the box so to say.  And also I very much want to have a family but I am clueless on how to win the heart of my special lady.

TB, if you think it will be different in Ukraine or Russia, you will be disappointed. It's a lot less risky to marry an American woman. Don't believe the BS you read on marriage agency websites.

[TeddyBear]

I think you may very well be right.  But I think my curiosity has be piqued enough to take a look.  I also think the journey may help process some of my emotions and help make the necessary adjustments to be a better husband.  I also don't believe you should take a nice girl and rip her from her family, friends and community.  If you love someone, the guy--who is more adept to adapt, more economically able to transfer wealth and productivity, should relocate to her.  But that is huge--I gotta really be in love to do that and more importantly--its gotta feel right--she has to love me and respect me for the man I am and can further be.

My intuition is leading me to belive the women I likely will crave to know will come from a respectable family that is doing its best to help her country be a better place.  A type of family that really does not want an outsider to come into its fold and likely pressure her not to have anything to do with me.  I remember reading an article about a great girl who came from Siberia to become an officer to help make her country great again.  Perhaps she is more realistic in views now, but such a worldview would really appeal to me--its something I can understand.  I am afraid tho because I love my country, can I learn to love her country as well?

[Turboguy]

Teddy, I have been on three big agency tours and one small agency tour.  I have heard comments about the big agency tours being sex tours and I don't agree with that at all.  I did hear some things from an insider at one of the big agencies that they do have sex tours but that is seperate from the romance tours.

Having done three big agency tours I would not recommend them.  The problem is not that they are sex tours.  It is that most of the guys have been recruited from mass media advertising and although they are very sincere they are a little clueless.   They recruit women much the same as they recruit men.  When I did mine, I saw posters on phone poles invinting women to the social.  I saw a billboard on the street.  They run ads in newspapers etc.  It does not take long for a woman who is a scammer to figure out that at the social there is a room full of nieve, gulable men with more green matter in thier wallets than grey matter in their head.   My first tour, the sincere attractive gal I met and had hopes of a future with turned out to be a serial fiancee who had all these guys from all over sending here $ 200.00 a month for English lessons.  The second trip, the girl I met and had hopes for ended up being a scammer.  I made a 5 day follow up trip and spent $ 3000.00 in those 5 days of which I figure at least $ 1000.00 ended up in her pocket.   The third tour, when I made my follow up trip the girl was shopping for $ 400.00 shoes within 2 hours of me meeting her.  I dumped her after day one. 

The concept of tours is good but the way most are set up you end up with a disaster.  I have stayed in touch with several of the guys from my tours.  Everyone came back from the tours happy and thinking they had met their woman.  Not one ended up with the woman they expected to.

There is one tour that I would highly recommend.   That is Jack Bragg's tour.   He does a small tour twice a year and limits it to 12 men.  You can pick the cities and number of cities you want to go to and the price is by city.   No women are invited off the streets.  All women have been either invited by the men our have been sent by one of the smaller and reputable agencies Jack works with and are known personally by the agency owners.  I did one of Jack's tours with my son and was very impressed.  There is a TR here about my tour if you want to search for it.  Jacks website is www.FirstDream.com   

[BillyB]

My question is--will I get steered wrong on a tour by the more reputable one?

The only tour I've seen anybody recommend and nobody complain about is Jack Bragg's first dream tour. http://www.firstdream.com/

Jack has an online personality that some people don't like but even one of his haters admits that he can't find anything wrong with Jack's tours.

If you done enough reading here, most of your questions will be answered. Most tours enlist insincere party girl, pro daters and hookers off the street besides their agency girls. The more girls at a tour event, the more the men are happy. The girls get free food, drinks, dancing and the opportunity to hook up with a rich foreigner.

The insincere girls are aggressive and hog up all the attention and after the event, those girls take the men on shopping trips and some will have sex with the men to hook em.

The sincere girls rarely get attention and rarely come back for another tour since they think it's a low class event. I read a few trip reports where a sincere girl shows up for a tour event for the first time and leaves crying.

[Turboguy]

I have to agree with what Billy says.   The atmosphere at the big agency tours is too much like a meat market and the women feel like they are for sale.   The hot ladies who are probably scammers get all the attention and half the ladies come and never get a chance to talk to even one man.

At Jack's tour, every woman talks to every man and every man gets to meet every woman. 

The only think Billy said that I would disagree with is that some of the scammers have sex with the men to hook them.  I never had sex with a scammer.  Usually it doesn't go further than a kiss on the cheek.  The only one that went further was the scammer that I spent 3 grand on in 5 days.   At the end of each date I got one of the hottest french kisses of my life but 5 french kisses for 3 grand is rather expensive. 

[kievstar]

I do not know Jack personally but he is the only poster I see on this board or the other board that really knows what is going on in the marriage industry in Ukraine.  If I was not married and just starting out I would have gone on one of his tours.  All newbies should take a tour first.  Why waste the time and get on the ground experience with someone who is the best in the business.

I do know men in USA who married on tours and are very happy.  And they married very beautiful educated women.

[TeddyBear]

Hmmnn lot to chew on.  Jack does seem like one of those larger than life personalites but perhaps that is the kind of guy I need input from.  Funny tho, but I always thought I needed the help of granny type figure like Dr. Laura to help me.  Jack kinda seems like a frat leader to me.

[TeddyBear]

So, if you have 12 men at one of Jack's parties--how many women attend?  Im 36 years old BTW.

[BillyB]

 Jack kinda seems like a frat leader to me.

Regardless of what you heard of Jack and what you think he is, what is important is that you need to look out for #1 which is you and do what's in your best interest. I've never used a tour but I read enough to understand them. If you are determined to use a tour, your best chance for success in finding a sincere woman is with Jack's tour over the others which got bad reputations for a reason. I know some of those hot women shown at the other tours are hard to resist but their tours are more fantasy than reality.

[BillyB]

So, if you have 12 women at one of Jack's parties--how many women attend? 

The answer is 12. Was that a trick question?

Read Jack website for some answers and email him some questions. Of course he has a business interest in selling you a tour but I think he really cares about his clients and lady's success. It's hard to find any complaints on the internet from a former customer pertaining to his tour.

[TeddyBear]

Sorry I meant 12 men--who I guess are the principles of the party.  I was just trying to get a feel for what the party was like.   That is why I was kinda gravitating toward one of the big three because I could kinda of get a feel for what the expericence was gonna be like.  What I really was hoping for was good sit down--kinda of like hey "let's sit down and talk reality" type of lecture and I felt that would kinda of center me and allow me to experience the social with a more better mind frame.  Also, I would like to see other men and how they react to the women and their evolution of feelings to kinda gauge the reality of what is going on.  My real question is--12 guys--how many women at the party?

[JR]

The number of ladies is simple: as many as they can get. They can't guarantee you anything. If they make promises then perhaps they are paying some ladies to fill a seat and they have no intentions towards you or the process. Or they are there for a free meal or to hook up with some old fart that'll buy them an $1,100 bikini.

Why would you care how another man responds or reacts to a woman? 

Just be yourself, it's who you'll end up being anyways )))

Whatever your path enjoy the journey!

[TeddyBear]

Seeing other men in their interactions tend to calm me and center me.  I am a big believer in I don't need to touch fire to know its sucks type of guy.  I have met some really beautiful women who have literally reduced me to a jelly like zombie state.  I know my limitations--if I am by self and I meet someone immensely attractive--I lose my common sense, my mouth gets dry, I can't even cut my steak properly and sometimes I can't even remember the conversation.  I need someone to slap me back into reality if I get into that state.

[Turboguy]

Let me go into a little more detail.  

With the big agency tour you get a nice, well organized packet with all the information about arranging your visa and tips of what to do and not do and what to expect.

With Jack's tour you get a lot of phone calls and emails outlining what you need to do to make sure you are meeting the women you want to meet, to answer any questions etc.  You will have a bunch of emails and spend an hour or two on the phone with Jack personally taking care of everything.

With the big agency tours.   You have a table usually in the center of the room and the ladies stand or sit around the outside.   When you see one you want to talk to her you grab an interpreter and go ask if she wants to talk to you.  She then joins you at your table and you chat for 15 minutes or so.  You then move on to the next one.  As the day gets late you pick the one you liked the best and invite her to dinner.  They almost always say yes, unless someone else has asked first.

With Jack's tour you have your own interpreter for the party.  You sit at a table with 8-10 women and talk to all of them.  If one seems interesting you let your interperter know which one and later she will arrange private meetings with the ones you liked.   After 15-20 minutes they sort of ring a bell and you get up and move to the next table and talk to another 8 women or so and that continues.  Sort of like musical tables.  When the night is over you have talked to every woman and every woman has talked to you.  When the party is over you can take the one you liked the best out dancing or to dinner or whatever.   You are also doing indivudual meetings with 2-4 women each day so you have the party and meet about 6 women per city that you picked from agency catalogs or contacted using methods Jack will tell you about.

The big agency tours include air fare and hotel.  That is not included with Jacks but the price reflects that as well.  You are probably looking at about 4 grand for a two city tour with a big agency and I think Jack's are in the range of $ 695.00 a city.  I could be off a bit on that.  

You also get to spend a lot of time with the other guys on the tour and swap ideas a lot.  It also happens on the big agency tours but not as much.  

The big agency tours usually have 100-150 ladies and Jacks probably has 50-60.   The quality is better with Jack's tours.  The big agency tours tend to go to the exteames.   Beautiful, or not pretty at all.  Jack's have some drop dead beauties but most are very attractive and only a few that are going to have a hard time finding a man who would be interested.

[Faux Pas]

TeddyBear

Keep in mind reputations are generally earned. Good or bad there is usually a reason for the reputation that a person, company, website, agency ect. possesses. That isn't to say there are some good, sincere women at the big 3 but, there is more chafe than wheat. The business models of those big ones and many small ones as well, is to obtain as much of your money as possible. More of a boiler room, product pushing business and the product is geared to your fantasies as opposed to your happiness. The initial euphoria of picking pretty faces out on a webpage is probably much like surfing porn allowing your mind to wander. These pick and pay agencies know this.

There are many different avenues to meeting, dating and marrying a woman from the FSW. One of which is the shyster agencies. Those also seem to be the more popular I suppose, because of their web presence.

You mentioned Elena's Models, I had excellent results there. Other guys mentioned they had none. Few had anything negative to say about Elena's other than the cost which I though was very reasonable.

Tours are plentiful and available, and of many different varieties. I have never been on a tour, just wasn't my thing but sounds like it might be yours. Jack has a solid and sterling reputation in the tour business. Check him out.

My only advice would be to stick around awhile and do lots of reading at RWD. Figure yourself out then, make yourself some reasonable approach as to how you wish to proceed if, in fact you do wish to proceed. If you are thinking this is easier than dating AW, you could never be more wrong. Only the options are multiplied but, I can tell you the core of women are the same.

Good luck

[TeddyBear]

Thank you guys, I am gonna chew on this for a while and I gonna take a hard look at what Jack is offering too.

[Turboguy]

I will agree with Faux Pas about Elena's.   That is where I met my wife.  I have heard a few guys complain but when you read their posts in more detail, most were using the free membership.  I had the platinum membership which is not cheap but it does let you write all the women you want for free and gives you first crack at the new ones.  Once you have a platinum membership they let you renew at half price.   Stay away from any sites where you pay by the letter.

I do feel that Jack's tour is a great way to go on the first trip.  You will meet enough quality women that it may be your last trip to search.  There is a detialed trip report here about the trip I went on with my son.

Here is a link to it.


http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=2698.0

[TeddyBear]

Hey, tyvm turboguy I missed that report somehow, maybe because I was in so in awe of Muckraker's trip to Vladivostok--seriously, his exploits should be made into a romance movie and a book.

[Shadow]

Teddybear I see that you have already gotten some good advice.
As for Jack, I can only say that he will be a great person to guide someone like you and encourage you in to taking the step you might otherwise not.

As for your limitations, you need to work on them. Women expect a man to be a man, and that includes being strong in character. That does not mean you have to become what you are not, just you have to build confidence. There are millions of men having a worse job, worse looks and a worse character, and they managed to find a wife. You can too. All it takes is being able to detect if a woman likes *you*, then you will start to like and love her soon enough.

Remain who you are, as you can not act all your way through a marriage. You will find someone that enjoys to be with you, she can be a total opposite or very similar. Of all the millions of women it takes only one, the trick is not to be blinded by others.

[BillyB]

I was in so in awe of Muckraker's trip to Vladivostok--seriously, his exploits should be made into a romance movie and a book.

keep in mind just because Muck successfully navigated around AWeb doesn't mean you can. Sure there's a winner every once in a while in AWeb but the giant AWeb like Las Vegas was built by losers.

[Muckraker]

Yeah it was real hard I had to pay $10 to get her phone number and starting calling her and then I went to visit her on an aeroplane with a jet motor that went vroooommmm!

Muck

[BillyB]

Yeah it was real hard I had to pay $10 to get her phone number and starting calling her and then I went to visit her on an aeroplane with a jet motor that went vroooommmm!

Muck

Teddybear may not have the luxury of paying another agency $10 for contact info. AWeb has gotten tougher than ever about releasing contact info. To protect women is the excuse men must exclusively use their services. Teddybear may never know who he's writing to if he chooses AWeb.