Teachings of Tashkent....

[I/O]

being considered credible is not the goal.

Maybe for some, but I suspect most wish to be believed when they recount their story.

3 years ago I began to point out the dangers of forums and trip reports in particular to relationships. I've been fortunate as Mrs I/O and I shared a forum early on, both were and are involved in several (different subjects) forums. It's part of us, I wouldn't know (nor care) what she writes and her likewise with me. Perhaps indicative of a level of trust. I doubt many would be as fortunate as we have been with our shared forum experience.

Furthermore (JR, a little cluebat here), once a RW (Most women for that matter) decides something is dodgy, the "Jam" is over. You are wasting your time trying to convince her of anything else. Facts go out the window and it is ALL about perception. Another old saying rings loud, "Perception is reality". I remain convinced you are selling yourself way short and need to set your sights on a class of woman who is educated and rounded enough to meet you on your own terms. Dealing with people who go over the top on these issues will never be an enjoyable pastime.

But..............or...........And.....................

I can't think of one good reason for them to be mad at you,  unless I missed something.

I think you missed the obvious. Read his report again and it is pretty clear they won't be receiving anymore money form JR anytime soon. I think you'll find when push comes to shove, that's what they are all p!ssed about.

[tim 360]

Thanks I/O--yeah the rub was the money for them.  If you or anyone else spent $$$ on me and posted it on the internet it wouldn't get me mad--but thats me. 

It is all about perceptions and some RW's can be very fast on the draw if they feel insulted.  Right or wrong.

On forums, like this one you should be careful 'cuz you really don't know everybody on the forum well.  There have been cases where some guy will post about his new girlfriend and post a photo and her city and first name--next thing you know some clown from the forum is trying to chat up his girlfriend.

[I/O]

If you or anyone else spent $$$ on me and posted it on the internet it wouldn't get me mad--but thats me.

But..........you might get mad if those posts stated you wouldn't be getting any more.................

[BillyB]

But..........you might get mad if those posts stated you wouldn't be getting any more.................

That wouldn't be me. If a person helped me financially in my time of need, I certainly wouldn't expect any more help and I would still think highly of that person. I guess JR's family he visited didn't feel grateful but entitled to the money.

[I/O]

I guess JR's family he visited didn't feel grateful but entitled to the money.

Billy, it probably all started out innocently enough but as I mentioned in the other thread, thinking born in economic adversity tends to lead to an opportunistic mentality and opportunistic success can lead to an entitlement mentality.

[BillyB]

On forums, like this one you should be careful 'cuz you really don't know everybody on the forum well.  There have been cases where some guy will post about his new girlfriend and post a photo and her city and first name--next thing you know some clown from the forum is trying to chat up his girlfriend.

There's been a few times on a forum a guy would give a little info on his gal in a trip report that doesn't include name or photo. That guy may also be fighting another poster in another thread and I could see things get heated. A few times I have sent a poster who wrote a trip report a PM with the link to his gal's profile/s and tell him if I can find her, so can your enemies so eliminate some info in your trip report right now or stop fighting. Unfortunately there are enough low liefs out there that will destroy another person's life/relationship just because they got into an argument with that person.

[Miri22]

Most decent people (from any culture, man OR woman) perhaps would question the trustworthiness, character and intentions of any person they were involved with on any level if they found their private relations posted on a public forum, no?
The question could be asked, "what is the poster gaining by telling Internet strangers about an encounter?" is it the need to feed ones own ego?
Narcissism comes in many forms. 

[Blues Fairy]

Most decent people (from any culture, man OR woman) perhaps would question the trustworthiness, character and intentions of any person they were involved with on any level if they found their private relations posted on a public forum, no?The question could be asked, "what is the poster gaining by telling Internet strangers about an encounter?" is it the need to feed ones own ego?
Narcissism comes in many forms. 

Narcissism?  What about folks who write memoirs, are they narcissists as well?  Readers of memoirs are even more anonymous than the "Internet strangers" some of whom at least have a registered profile here on this forum.  And this forum exists for sharing experiences; some people post even more personal stories on various psychology forums etc. - the purpose is to process one's own experience and share it with others who might benefit.  Nobody owes anything to people whom nobody even knows by the name, let alone address/phone etc.
Aren't you dramatizing things a little?

[Miri22]

The general drama seems to lie within the fact these forums are accessible to the world at large, it's totally public and published for the world to read apparently with sad, painful consequences for the parties involved. Security settings could prevent a vast array of difficulties being experienced by some. 

[BillyB]

it's totally public and published for the world to read apparently with sad, painful consequences for the parties involved.

Do you know how many happy successful trip reports have given hope to thousands of readers that they can find a wonderful woman in the FSU? Do you know how many failed trip reports have educated thousands of men on what to look out for pertaining to gold diggers, pro daters, scammers, and good but "not into you" women?

The benefits outweigh the cost and if a guy writes a trip report talking about his lady in a postitive manner to help others, one has to respect that and I would question anyone on why they don't respect that. If a guy writes negatively about a lady he visited, it doesn't matter if they break up since they were never together anyway.

There are plenty of RW out there that admire their Men for being proud, boasting, writing about their romantic love story for the whole World to read. Married men here talk about their wonderful wives often. Anybody divorced over that?

[Ade]

Do you know how many happy successful trip reports have given hope to thousands of readers that they can find a wonderful woman in the FSU? Do you know how many failed trip reports have educated thousands of men on what to look out for pertaining to gold diggers, pro daters, scammers, and good but "not into you" women?

The benefits outweigh the cost and if a guy writes a trip report talking about his lady in a postitive manner to help others, one has to respect that and I would question anyone on why they don't respect that. If a guy writes negatively about a lady he visited, it doesn't matter if they break up since they were never together anyway.

There are plenty of RW out there that admire their Men for being proud, boasting, writing about their romantic love story for the whole World to read. Married men here talk about their wonderful wives often. Anybody divorced over that?

The fact is, people are trying to rationalize and apply logic to other people's feelings and in the same way you can't do that with other strong beliefs, you can't do it about this.

Why can't you just respect people's wishes not to be included in an open forums discussions? Why is that so difficult? Look at Seeker's TR for a good example. It escapes me why people on these types of RW forums even think that including details of meeting women in TR helpful - the physical practicalities of getting around, yes, of course, but, "I had coffee with O and she ordered Sushi two nights running" is good for what exactly? Good grief, if men can't manage to get to grips with RW without the aid of an instructional TR then I say let social Darwinism take its course.

I find it just as bizarre that you are demonising people like this, making them out to be "not worth bothering with" unless they share they same privacy views as you. I mean, really? I knew my wife wouldn't have wanted me to write anything more than I have about our meetings on a forum like this - it doesn't take a genius - so I didn't. What I have posted I did with her consent, usually while she sat beside me. The operative word there is consent.

I can tell you now, those that think it's a wise idea to throw away the chance of a relationship with a woman like my wife just so they can have their ego stroked on a forum like this, deserves very much all that they get.

It's a simple thing to write an informative and useful TR without it containing information that some might consider to be an infringement of privacy. It's just as simple to ask for the approval of a girlfriend to include details and if you don't know them well enough to ask for that yet, maybe that's good indicator about what you should and shouldn't be writing in the first place.

[BillyB]

It's a simple thing to write an informative and useful TR without it containing information that some might consider to be an infringement of privacy.

If people, men or women, didn't write about other people they met, this forum wouldn't exist and your post wouldn't exist. You can say what you said simply because people do have the right to speak about their encounters with other people. On RW women's forums they talk about men all the time and I've posted at some of those forums for other reasons but never complained when they talk about men except when I felt a guy was not a scammer.

As far as infringement of privacy, I doubt any laws are broken. Guys and girls talk about others all the time. That's not unusual. Sometimes I'll meet someone and soon after they'll pull out their wallet and show me their gf/wife and kids and tell me all about their loved ones in their life and how they met. Is that person violating the privacy of their wife and kids? People talk about and post their photos of their wife/gf and kids on the net. I don't think they need permission because it is their family to begin with.

[Ade]

If people, men or women, didn't write about other people they met, this forum wouldn't exist and your post wouldn't exist. You can say what you said simply because people do have the right to speak about their encounters with other people. On RW women's forums they talk about men all the time and I've posted at some of those forums for other reasons but never complained when they talk about men except when I felt a guy was not a scammer.

As far as infringement of privacy, I doubt any laws are broken. Guys and girls talk about others all the time. That's not unusual. Sometimes I'll meet someone and soon after they'll pull out their wallet and show me their gf/wife and kids and tell me all about their loved ones in their life and how they met. Is that person violating the privacy of their wife and kids? People talk about and post their photos of their wife/gf and kids on the net. I don't think they need permission because it is their family to begin with.

Dude, you don't get it. This isn't about laws, "rights", logic and rationalisations, this is how some people feel.

This also isn't about people posting they "met a wonderful woman in SPB, they went for a coffee and now they are dating." This is about TRs that say far more than they really need to. It's not really a very fine line and your all or nothing is just silly and I think you're being deliberately obtuse about this.

I'd also like to add that if a man cannot respect a women's ideas about privacy, I can't imagine how little respect he'll show her in a relationship when it comes to other things. Or do you think that it's okay to dismiss any and all of her ideas that do not conform to yours?

[BillyB]

Dude, you don't get it. This isn't about laws, "rights", logic and rationalisations, this is how some people feel.

You're the one that brought up "infringement of privacy". You may speak of how some people feel but you don't seem to accept how most people feel.

I'd also like to add that if a man cannot respect a women's ideas about privacy, I can't imagine how little respect he'll show her in a relationship when it comes to other things. Or do you think that it's okay to dismiss any and all of her ideas that do not conform to yours?

You think things in a relationship should be HERS or HIS. You want you and your wife in your relationship to be individuals. That is your choice. I would see everything in my relationship to be OURS. Her body is mine and my body is hers for example. If my woman wants to post OUR photos on the internet and speak on how we met and even mention some clumsy moments, I would not have a problem with that especially if she does it for a good cause to help others. There are much more worse things in life to worry about SJ. Focus your energy and passion on those things instead of the little things..

[Ade]

You're the one that brought up "infringement of privacy". You may speak of how some people feel but you don't seem to accept how most people feel.

Yes, they feel that their right to privacy has been infringed and they feel that their trust has been abused. It's got nothing to do with "rights" as defined by law.

You think things in a relationship should be HERS or HIS. You want you and your wife in your relationship to be individuals. That is your choice. I would see everything in my relationship to be OURS. Her body is mine and my body is hers for example. If my woman wants to post OUR photos on the internet and speak on how we met and even mention some clumsy moments, I would not have a problem with that especially if she does it for a good cause to help others.

No, I think in a relationship that "things" are ours. I think in terms of "we", it's you that thinks you should be the dominant one, taking precedence at all times and with the final say in every outcome as evidenced by several of your recent "real man" posts. That is not an "our" or "we" mindset, that is a domineering "me, me, me" mindset.

I show respect for what is important to my partner and she does the same for me; we can still be individuals in a partnership of equals that respects what is important for the individual, whilst prioritising what is best for us.

This is not the first time I've seen you post what you believe is a "partnership of equals" and I've stated previously that you have some strange ideas what it entails. This is just another example that you've no idea what equality and respect for another is really and truly about.

There are much more worse things in life to worry about SJ.

I don't worry about it and personally I think those of you who go out of your way to make a rod for your own back not even learning when lessons smack you in the face deserve what you get. It's no surprise to me whatsoever that so many guys in this "adventure" as people so cutely call it, remain unmarried or that their "relationships" end in train wrecks.

Focus your energy and passion on those things instead of the little things..

You've done it again, belittling what you think is unimportant when it's obviously of major importance to at least some (I'd say the majority) of the women out there. These women see this as signs of trustworthiness or not as the case may be and why on earth should they consider a relationship with someone that is so dismissive of their concerns, hm?

[Miri22]

The forum could very easily still exist under a simple layer of security which would provide privacy from the Internet world at large. In theroy however, this would minimize the sense of self importance and power provided by a public forum and end the ability to truly grand stand and feed on the self centeredness and feelings of prestige granted by being "open to the public".. Again, narcissism comes in many forms.

[Shadow]

So it is ok to sit at work or in a bar and tell everyone all intimate details, but as soon as its posted on the internet it becomes a matter of privacy.
If you do not wish others to know about your life, do not tell anything or meet anyone.

Adding a layer of security would not help as it would still be disclosing information.

[I/O]

It's just as simple to ask for the approval of a girlfriend to include details

If you need to ask for approvals or permissions, you don't have a relationship IMO. Watch 'em screw this one up.

[groovlstk]

So it is ok to sit at work or in a bar and tell everyone all intimate details, but as soon as its posted on the internet it becomes a matter of privacy.
If you do not wish others to know about your life, do not tell anything or meet anyone.

Adding a layer of security would not help as it would still be disclosing information.

LOL Shadow, I guess if someone here wrote a TR and included some unflattering bits about a Russian government official or oligarch, it would perfectly acceptable in your eyes if someone was hired to beat the stuffing out of him. 

[Ade]

If you need to ask for approvals or permissions, you don't have a relationship IMO. Watch 'em screw this one up.

Yeah right, and you're telling me you don't ever ask your wife if "it's okay if you...?"

No balanced relationship involves unilateral decision making and any that is balanced requires implicit or explicit approval from both partners for decisions that affect both of them. Sure, you may not have to ask explicitly each time but at some point along the way an implicit agreement between the two of you was reached by inference at the very least. You may not view it that way, but I'd bet that's very much the way it is not unless you've been lying about your wife's personality which apparently is far from being submissive and docile. 

Damn, I just love the "real man", alpha male pretenders in this place.

[Ade]

What a lot of you guys don't seem to get is that all the rhetoric and blather here about how wrong these women are to get upset about trip reports is irrelevant. Believe it or not, even my opinion is irrelevant too.

However, the opinions and beliefs of the women you plan to date and marry aren't irrelevant and there's a very large possibility that many of those women will be offended to the point of calling it off if she finds out you are posting details, even vague details, about them on public internet forums. You can say that those women aren't worth the effort, that they are somehow "broken" and that there many other "fish" in the sea but I know from experience that there are unique individuals out there with this view who aren't in any way broken and who are certainly worth it.

If you can so easily dismiss the thoughts and concerns of women because you don't agree, perhaps you should reconsider marriage to one or perhaps you should find one like BF that doesn't mind in the slightest.

[Shadow]

LOL Shadow, I guess if someone here wrote a TR and included some unflattering bits about a Russian government official or oligarch, it would perfectly acceptable in your eyes if someone was hired to beat the stuffing out of him. 

If JR would be living in Tashkent I bet some guys would aready be waiting outside his door. Does not take an oligarch or government official as I tried to point out.  :evil:

As for SJ, I found a woman that had no problem whatsoever with either the trip report or her pictures and that of her family floating around here. Women have their own places where they put their stories, and if you compare you will see that the men are very polite here in their descriptions and reports.

[GQBlues]

Most decent people (from any culture, man OR woman) perhaps would question the trustworthiness, character and intentions of any person they were involved with on any level if they found their private relations posted on a public forum, no?
The question could be asked, "what is the poster gaining by telling Internet strangers about an encounter?" is it the need to feed ones own ego?

I agree with this. It isn't difficult to understand that there are people and cultures out there today that doesn't necessarily share the same contemporary perception and thinking as others. Some folks may not have too many things in life beyond pride and self-respect. I'm not too sure how difficult it was for the gal to even ask JR to give a little bit of money to her folks, or for her folks to actually receive it. JR is still a visiting stranger up to that point. Sometimes there are proud folks out there that still struggle in these times. Maybe a bit of money will at least help a little bit during that time and uncomfortable as it was, they asked a visiting stranger for some help.

There are folks out there that still find moments like this uncomfortable. For some it isn't always easy finding yourself asking or doing things you wouldn't otherwise do for the sake of your family. So it could be that the gal put that aside, trusted and hoped for JR's understanding and asked.

It may well have been still an uncomfortable situation even after he left....

Only to find out that this visiting stranger had not only shared this, he even put their faces for the whole world to see and have other strangers spew some fairly lowly perception of this family.

Brush your western thinking aside for a minute and just imagine this scenario objectively. Not everyone understands the point of message boards, even to those living in the west, as easily as some of you would like to believe. Lesser still understand the point of grown adult men of advanced ages spending wads of their daily hours sharing stories about their women of interest like high school boys do in locker rooms.

[Blues Fairy]

SJ and GQ, I'm with you as far as it concerns privacy, i.e. putting faces/names/addresses on the Internet.  But when a story posted is completely anonymous ("A", "O" etc) there is no infringement of anything - just a literary exercise.    Besides, let's not forget that the case in question did not involve a "woman he plans to date and marry" - not even a meeting with such.  The only "juicy detail" about the lady was that she did not show up.

Regarding a "poor but proud" family asking for a bit of cash - unless the moral discomfort of doing so was far outweighed by the benefit, the event would not have taken place.  They survived before JR and will, surely, survive after.  Their outburst was probably a result of the feelings of shame/guilt, as I mentioned before; but that is their problem, not JR's.

[facetrock]

  Some here wonder if JR actually took the trip or if it was just all his imagination. I believe he did but I always wondered if the girl was actually real. Thats the impression I got from the trip report. She was kind of a shadowy figure, always a reason not to meet.

   As far as posting trip reports. As long as you dont get into to much detail I see nothing wrong with it. Some people are far more open than others. If your girl finds out and ends it you probably were not meant for each other anyway. Your obviously to open for her.

Its kind of pointless to even argue about it. Kind of like argueing about WOVO or WMVM. We are all different in our own ways.