Killers in uniform

[fred3]

Killers in uniform
http://www.kyivpost.com/news/opinion/editorial/detail/68573/


Yesterday at 21:33 Ukraine’s police are out of control and need to be reined in.

Ukraine’s law enforcers are out of control. They kill. They assault. They destroy property. They abuse the law, often with impunity, rather than enforce it.
Underpaid, they serve the corrupt elite rather than average citizens. The system remains rotten to the core, and seems to be getting worse recently.

The May 18 death of student Ihor Indilo, who died of a skull fracture and other blunt-force head injuries, may provide the impetus that Ukraine needs to clean up law enforcement. Indylo died in police custody, on the eve of his 20th birthday.

He died after officers arrested him and put him in a Kyiv detention cell. Police initially said he was drunk, fell and fatally injured himself. Ukraine’s ombudsman, Nina Karpacheva, calls it murder. Hopefully, an investigation will find the answers.

Meanwhile, in Kharkiv, municipal guards dressed in black on June 2 tore down a tent city of activists protesting against the construction of a road through a forested park. At least two were injured badly enough to be hospitalized. Guards destroyed cameras. On the same day, a trade union member, Maksym Abramovsky, was detained by police officers in Kyiv’s Vokzalna metro at 10:50 a.m. He called his colleague who witnessed the detention, shouting he was being beaten up.

Reports are also coming from across the country of peaceful protests being dispersed by force.

Ukraine inherited a corrupt and incompetent law enforcement system from the Soviet Union. It is not much better nearly 19 years into independence. Instead, each political leader uses the public’s police as a private security force. No wonder polls show the public is distrustful and fearful, and only 10 percent say law enforcement is fighting crime well.

President Viktor Yanukovych’s new plan for the nation says little about law enforcers. The reforms pursued by Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili would be a good place to start. After taking power in 2003, the Georgian police have been transformed from bribe-taking gangsters to a respectable force.
Ukraine can start by firing many cops, tripling the salaries of honest and competent ones, equipping them with the best crime-fighting techniques and technologies and also holding them accountable. That would be a start to regaining public trust.

[Seeker]

Sounds like growing up in LA during the 60's and 70's... or possibly Kent State as a student.

This is no different from many places in the world... past, recent past, present, or future.

Sensationalized news exists everywhere.  The truth is it happens here too.  Just ask FOX... the news is made by those that report it.  I see it everyday. 

Oh, I am not saying it isn't happening there, and it should be ignored... It is more of a thought that we all have these problems, and need to look closer to home and 'clean up our own backyard' as the saying goes.

And I will probably get some crap for saying this, but it is no better here, or anywhere else.  Different maybe, but no better or worse.

[kievstar]

Do you know why the kid was arrested?  I would like to see that in the story first and it was more than just being drunk.

If your drunk and act like a fool in prison your going to get a beat down.  Wish USA would treat our prisoners harsher.  One less criminal living is a good thing.  Yes the police are corrupt but there are corrupt police in USA as well.  Also Georgia is no innocent country police force as well.  Shady journalism again.  See why so many journalists get a beat down a well.

[Faux Pas]

Sounds like growing up in LA during the 60's and 70's... or possibly Kent State as a student.

This is no different from many places in the world... past, recent past, present, or future.

Sensationalized news exists everywhere.  The truth is it happens here too.  Just ask FOX... the news is made by those that report it.  I see it everyday. 

Oh, I am not saying it isn't happening there, and it should be ignored... It is more of a thought that we all have these problems, and need to look closer to home and 'clean up our own backyard' as the saying goes.

And I will probably get some crap for saying this, but it is no better here, or anywhere else.  Different maybe, but no better or worse.

Do you know why the kid was arrested?  I would like to see that in the story first and it was more than just being drunk.

If your drunk and act like a fool in prison your going to get a beat down.  Wish USA would treat our prisoners harsher.  One less criminal living is a good thing.  Yes the police are corrupt but there are corrupt police in USA as well.  Also Georgia is no innocent country police force as well.  Shady journalism again.  See why so many journalists get a beat down a well.

Seems to be an overabundance of head stuck in ass disease concerning journalism at RWD with these yet two more prime examples. Does it occur to either of you that the reporting of the incident had nothing to do with the incident?

[Boethius]

A poster sent me this link, and we had a discussion about it. 

Ukrainian police were notorious in the Soviet period for their corruption and abuse of individuals, and it has become far, far worse, since the collapse of the USSR.  Ukraine's police are known to be involved in extortion, robbery, the sex trade industry, selling babies abroad for adoption, and home invasions where the home's occupants were usually shot to death.  They are above the law in a way that police in Western countries with a rule of law are not.  I personally know many situations in which innocent Ukrainians were victimized by the police.  This article, really, is just the tip of the iceberg.

[Gylden]

Seeker,

Dude, you are one heck of a nice guy, but there are places on this earth which are COMPLETELY not like the good ol U.S. of A.
I really recommend, if you travel more to FSU to take it easy and take a more conflict avoidance strategy. It would be terrible to have one of those journalists writting about some United Statesian.
Caution, Caution, and more Caution.

[Seeker]

Seeker,

Dude, you are one heck of a nice guy, but there are places on this earth which are COMPLETELY not like the good ol U.S. of A.
I really recommend, if you travel more to FSU to take it easy and take a more conflict avoidance strategy. It would be terrible to have one of those journalists writting about some United Statesian.
Caution, Caution, and more Caution.

Thanks Glyden, I admit to having an attitude (naive) of no fear.  Cautious of course, I don't look for problems and avoid people/places that make me feel uncomfortable, but even here at home I often forget that there are people out there who might think of me as a target.  I just don't think about it.

I appreciate the advice, and will try to remember it when it is needed. 

[Blues Fairy]

I personally know many situations in which innocent Ukrainians were victimized by the police.  This article, really, is just the tip of the iceberg.

In 2003, I was personally chased across the Chertanovskaya subway station in Moscow by a drunken cop intending to drag me into their little inquiry room, for my lack of proper 'registration'.  I snatched my papers from him after I smelled his breath; I started running away and yelling "Help, he's drunk!" and sure enough, not a single person stopped to interfere.  My objective was to get above ground ASAP so my cell would start working and I could make calls to protect myself.  I made it onto the escalator where he got hold of me and we rode upstairs, where I made my calls.  There the drunken cop was joined by a couple more and the three of them kept "persuading" me rather angrily to follow them for about 40 minutes, while I vehemently refused and lectured them about my constitutional rights.  Finally they got bored with me and let go.  

[Ranetka]

Blue Fairy,

while I found Moscow's registration system a disgrace the cop was absolutely in his right checking your papers, taking you in their inquiry room and demanding fine for the absense of registration.

well done for running away and not paying anyway though.

[Blues Fairy]

while I found Moscow's registration system a disgrace the cop was absolutely in his right checking your papers, taking you in their inquiry room and demanding fine for the absense of registration.

1. He was drunk, therefore he couldn't have been on duty and thus had no business checking my papers;
2. If he was on duty, he should have been fired for being drunk;
3. He seized me without any formal reason as I was neither committing nor displaying any signs of having committed a misdemeanor or crime;
4. Even then, Moscow registration was not, formally, mandatory according to the Constitution, though it was mandatory according to the Moscow code. That the city code should not override the Constitution nobody seemed to care; but that didn't make my formal defense any less reasonable. 
5. He yelled and swore at me and acted like a bully - unacceptable behavior even for a sober cop on duty. 
 

[kievstar]

I saw Ukraine cops on duty all the time drinking.  I doubt Russia is any different.  I know people in USA who take drugs while on duty as cops. One is my cousin.

Just like any work profession you have good and bad. 

Faux Paus, do you know why he was arrested?  Before you open up your mouth - think first.  The journalist should have posted why he was arrested and what he did in prison.  There are other articles out there that paint a different story of what happened.  Faux Paus you ever work in Ukraine or live there?  How much time have you spent living in Ukraine?

[Faux Pas]

I saw Ukraine cops on duty all the time drinking.  I doubt Russia is any different.  I know people in USA who take drugs while on duty as cops. One is my cousin.

Just like any work profession you have good and bad. 

Faux Paus, do you know why he was arrested?  Before you open up your mouth - think first.  The journalist should have posted why he was arrested and what he did in prison.  There are other articles out there that paint a different story of what happened.  Faux Paus you ever work in Ukraine or live there?  How much time have you spent living in Ukraine?

It makes no DIFFERENCE why he was arrested. What makes a difference kievstar is that he was arrested and killed while arrested. You seem to think this is related to the journalist who did nothing but report that dude was arrested and killed, as if it hadn't been reported, the act wouldn't have happened. How lame is that? Times like this I seriously question your intelligence. That is popping off your mouth when you have no clue as to what you are talking about. There is no shady journalism here and if there were, it is not related to cops killing the guy. Why not just blame BP and the oil spill in the Gulf?

Freedom of the press and responsible journalism is something you won't miss until you don't have it anymore. Making a completely baseless accusations as you do here will help to end those freedoms

[Boethius]

BF, I think you were absolutely correct to flee.  You were using your intuition.  Gavin deBecker wrote an excellent book on this called The Gift of Fear.  Just a few days ago, there was a story in the Ukrainian papers about a police captain in a small Ukrainian town who had hold of a teen in front of her apartment.  The teen's mother heard her daughter screaming and came out to investigate.  The captain said the girl had been implicated in a robbery, and had to go with him.  The mother noticed the captain was drunk, and, knowing her daughter, doubted the robbery story.  She called the police.  Had the captain not been drunk, the police would have done nothing.  The story made the rounds, and several women reported they'd been raped by that drunken captain.

Faux Paus, do you know why he was arrested?  Before you open up your mouth - think first.  The journalist should have posted why he was arrested and what he did in prison.  There are other articles out there that paint a different story of what happened.  Faux Paus you ever work in Ukraine or live there?  How much time have you spent living in Ukraine?

So post a link.  I doubt your veracity, as this is an everyday occurence in Ukraine.  You lived there as a privileged foreigner.  You were never an average, powerless, working class Ukrainian male with no option to leave the country or complain to a foreign embassy.

[kievstar]

Faux Paus, I like facts and they were missing from the article.  Than people make opinions based on an article missing key facts.  The journalist wanted to get the reaction he got out of you.  I like to see both sides of the story and legit facts.  What I have seen is incomplete and different opinions. 

Since you did not answer my question on spending time in Ukraine you should be keeping quiet on some topics since you have no idea what really goes on there.  Only what you read from a journalist trying to get an reaction.  Have you ever been in a prison in Ukraine.  At the police station.  Know any cops in Ukraine.  I can answer yes to all.  Life is a little tougher there.  But in this case this so called innocent victim was no so innocent.

[Boethius]

 

I note no link to the "real" story asserted, as requested.  I did google.ua and google.ru searches on this story, and found nothing that would indicate this was anything other than as reported.

Don't worry, Faux Pas.  My husband, who lived in Ukraine most of his adult life, his mother, sister, and our nephew, who all live there now, say kiev doesn't have any idea of what goes on there either.  So, you are, by kiev's definition (not mine) "equally matched" to comment.

The medical examiner has weighed in on this particular case, as has the human rights ombudsman.  The President's office is investigating.  Evidently, none of those Ukrainians know what goes on in their country either.

[Faux Pas]

kiev I have never spent any time in Ukraine. I have not been in prison, lived or worked there. I have never even visited. What that has to do with the statement you made is beyond me. I don't have to spend time at the bottom of the ocean to know it is wet. My point, back up thread as you obviously missed it was, it doesn't matter why the guy was arrested, it doesn't even matter that he is dead. That has no bearing or reflection on the incident that happened. The incident in question (1) happened, and then (2) was reported on by a journalist. It happened in that order. That is unless the journalist was clairvoyant and wrote of the incident before it happened.

Shotty journalism, if there was any at all is not the reason why the cops killed the man as you elude to in your post. The two are not connected. It doesn't matter if the guy was arrested for and guilty of multiple child rapes. He's dead, the cops allegedly did it then it was reported on.

While you and Seeker were circle jerking on the evil media and blamed this guys death on the journalist, maybe it wasn't the journalist fault. Has that thought even yet entered your mind?

[Seeker]

kiev I have never spent any time in Ukraine. I have not been in prison, lived or worked there. I have never even visited. What that has to do with the statement you made is beyond me. I don't have to spend time at the bottom of the ocean to know it is wet. My point, back up thread as you obviously missed it was, it doesn't matter why the guy was arrested, it doesn't even matter that he is dead. That has no bearing or reflection on the incident that happened. The incident in question (1) happened, and then (2) was reported on by a journalist. It happened in that order. That is unless the journalist was clairvoyant and wrote of the incident before it happened.

Shotty journalism, if there was any at all is not the reason why the cops killed the man as you elude to in your post. The two are not connected. It doesn't matter if the guy was arrested for and guilty of multiple child rapes. He's dead, the cops allegedly did it then it was reported on.

While you and Seeker were circle jerking on the evil media and blamed this guys death on the journalist, maybe it wasn't the journalist fault. Has that thought even yet entered your mind?

I never blamed the journalist for anything, except reporting the event in a way that would cause outrage without giving any real details or facts.

And as Boethius stated, maybe no one knows, and this is still being figured out (or know one wants to know and it won't be).  And it might just "fall away" as a story due to a lack of caring by those who write the stories, and those that read them.  But still the "bad taste" the memory of the story left will still linger in peoples minds, even without any real facts.

That was what bothered me. 

[Boethius]

You misunderstood my post, Seeker.

This is the second death of a young man in police custody this year.  In this case, Ihor was taken from a dorm after a complaint, drunk, to a police station.  When he was found, dead, his head had been smashed in.  The police claimed he had fallen.  His parents raised a stink, including in the media.  The medical examiner has stated his injury came from a blow from above.  Therefore, he could not have hit his head falling.  The human rights ombudsman called this case a murder.  She has demanded an independent prosecutorial inquiry, because "the rights of Ukrainians are violated daily".  

I really wouldn't expect the police to admit to malfeasance, either in Ukraine or elsewhere.  Certainly, there have been cases in Canada of police injuring suspects in custody, then denying culpability.  That is human nature, and policing is a tough job.  The difference is that in the West, police are investigated, usually independently, if they commit such acts.  Careers can be lost.  Plus, suspects in cells are monitored with surveillance.  In Ukraine, there is little video surveillance, and by and large, police malfeasance is not investigated at all.

Now, kievstar has claimed there is "more to this story".  I googled for any additional information that contradicted the OP's link, and found none.    Which tells me that, as is his wont, a certain poster is being a little liberal with the truth.

This has, from my perspective, nothing to do with journalism, and everything to do with police corruption in Ukraine.  It gives me no pleasure to state the truth, which is that Ukraine's police are extremely corrupt.  It is harder to find an honest policeman there than it is to find a corrupt one.  

[Faux Pas]

I never blamed the journalist for anything, except reporting the event in a way that would cause outrage without giving any real details or facts.

Okay, let's try this again

The death of a prisoner in police custody should cause outrage, it's damn outrageous. Where is your way of Zen to all living creatures to the dead guy? The journalist didn't need to write it in such a way to cause outrage, it is already outrageous enough. Even if the journalist did slant the story to cause outrage it doesn't change the fact that the police killed the guy and it had nothing to do with the journalist. Yet, you seem quite comfortable blaming the death on "the way" the journalist writes it as opposed to the actual perpetrators of the crime.

Sounds like growing up in LA during the 60's and 70's... or possibly Kent State as a student.

This is no different from many places in the world... past, recent past, present, or future.

Sensationalized news exists everywhere.  The truth is it happens here too. Just ask FOX... the news is made by those that report it.  I see it everyday. 

The news is made by those that report it. You see it everyday. The news is reported on by those that report it Seeker. There is two clear and distinct differences in making the news versus reporting the news. You will never get an unvarnished news report for you unless, you investigate and write it yourself. Let it be noted you just happen to throw FOX news in as if to make it a right winger conspiracy red herring. This is normally a desperate act by someone who has not argument, but wish for someone to think they know what they are talking about.

 

And as Boethius stated, maybe no one knows, and this is still being figured out (or know one wants to know and it won't be).  And it might just "fall away" as a story due to a lack of caring by those who write the stories, and those that read them.  But still the "bad taste" the memory of the story left will still linger in peoples minds, even without any real facts.

That was what bothered me.

I won't even get into your reading comprehension skills. I refuse

[Seeker]

You misunderstood my post, Seeker.

This is the second death of a young man in police custody this year.  In this case, Ihor was taken from a dorm after a complaint, drunk, to a police station.  When he was found, dead, his head had been smashed in.  The police claimed he had fallen.  His parents raised a stink, including in the media.  The medical examiner has stated his injury came from a blow from above.  Therefore, he could not have hit his head falling.  The human rights ombudsman called this case a murder.  She has demanded an independent prosecutorial inquiry, because "the rights of Ukrainians are violated daily".  

Now, kievstar has claimed there is "more to this story".  I googled for any additional information that contradicted the OP's link, and found none.    Which tells me that, as is his wont, a certain poster is being a little liberal with the truth.

This has, from my perspective, nothing to do with journalism, and everything to do with police corruption in Ukraine.  Ukraine's police are extremely corrupt.  It is harder to find an honest policeman there than it is to find a corrupt one.  

Okay, now that makes more sense to me.  I am just looking for the facts, and hoping I can make sense of them.  Thanks for filling in some of the blanks.  I am glad that the human rights ombudsman is trying to force an investigation.  I hope she gets one.  And that the story is told how "she" and people like her are not going to allow this type of action to continue.  I see that as a glimmer of hope.  There is still a lot not known... about this story, corruption, or how to fix it.  The more we all know (especially the people of the country it happens in) the better chance we have of growing out of it.

Knowledge is power, and if people stand up to the corruption and demand better, they will win in the end.  Some will suffer of course, but it is the sad part of healing.  

I hope we hear more about this story as it progresses.

And I didn't totally misunderstand your post... I just quoted from it selectively.  Sorry for 'partial-quoting'.  But when stories like this have come out before (over many years from many places) it always seems there is more to the story that we are not being told.  I always wonder about the gaps in what we are told vs. what we see and know from experience.  And obviously my experience in this exact story and its situation is lacking.

I guess I am getting a bit cynical in my old... ummm.... mature age....  

[Seeker]

Okay, let's try this again

The death of a prisoner in police custody should cause outrage, it's damn outrageous. Where is your way of Zen to all living creatures to the dead guy? The journalist didn't need to write it in such a way to cause outrage, it is already outrageous enough. Even if the journalist did slant the story to cause outrage it doesn't change the fact that the police killed the guy and it had nothing to do with the journalist. Yet, you seem quite comfortable blaming the death on "the way" the journalist writes it as opposed to the actual perpetrators of the crime.


The news is made by those that report it. You see it everyday. The news is reported on by those that report it Seeker. There is two clear and distinct differences in making the news versus reporting the news. You will never get an unvarnished news report for you unless, you investigate and write it yourself. Let it be noted you just happen to throw FOX news in as if to make it a right winger conspiracy red herring. This is normally a desperate act by someone who has not argument, but wish for someone to think they know what they are talking about.

 

 

I won't even get into your reading comprehension skills. I refuse

I think we have the same problem here... separating the message from the messenger.  For me, it is the reporting of the incident.  I need to know more to understand.  For you it seems to be finding fault in anything I say.  I am cool with it.  But why do you waste the effort?  And to be honest, it is a waste.  You aren't going to change me or my way of thinking.  Speak your mind, that is fine.  But lets agree to disagree, and let the personal 'attacks' go. 

I am trying peacefully, and without starting an argument to find out other peoples perspective (that know more about the actual facts than I do).  Is that so wrong?

[jenerator]

deleted.

[Faux Pas]

I think we have the same problem here... separating the message from the messenger.  For me, it is the reporting of the incident.  I need to know more to understand.  For you it seems to be finding fault in anything I say.  I am cool with it.  But why do you waste the effort?  And to be honest, it is a waste.  You aren't going to change me or my way of thinking.  Speak your mind, that is fine.  But lets agree to disagree, and let the personal 'attacks' go. 

I don't find fault with everything you say. There have been some statements/posts you've made that I do agree with or am indifferent towards. It is when you make asinine statements and/or remarks that I feel warrants addressing, I address it. It is not for you that I make or "waste" the effort. I have no desire to change you or your particular line of thought. I don't know you and you are not important enough for me to do that. It's when you pass bad or erroneous information that I feel compelled to bring it to the attention of others that may read it. You are not the only one Seeker. Anyone passing bad information needs to be called on it and not just by me but, by anyone.

I don't do personal attacks. I you wish to make it personal, thats your choice. You seem like a nice enough guy albeit with some insecurities. IMO, you also seem you believe entitled to some degree of respect. That doesn't work for me. I respect those that have earned it. I respect and disagree with many people on this forum regularly. On a forum such as this, it is earned by the degree of knowledge and good information you pass on. Not just a place to spend some time and have your ego stroked. I come here in hopes of helping someone that may need it and on the chance that I can learn something new. I'll save the agree to disagree for opinions and I have no problem doing that. Other than that you do have something that bothers me about you. That is when you tend to dismiss and and speak down to someone who isn't agreeing with you. If you are as open-minded and kumby-ya as you preach, you'll work on that some.


[/quote]

[Seeker]

I don't find fault with everything you say. There have been some statements/posts you've made that I do agree with or am indifferent towards. It is when you make asinine statements and/or remarks that I feel warrants addressing, I address it. It is not for you that I make or "waste" the effort. I have no desire to change you or your particular line of thought. I don't know you and you are not important enough for me to do that. It's when you pass bad or erroneous information that I feel compelled to bring it to the attention of others that may read it. You are not the only one Seeker. Anyone passing bad information needs to be called on it and not just by me but, by anyone.

I don't do personal attacks. I you wish to make it personal, thats your choice. You seem like a nice enough guy albeit with some insecurities. IMO, you also seem you believe entitled to some degree of respect. That doesn't work for me. I respect those that have earned it. I respect and disagree with many people on this forum regularly. On a forum such as this, it is earned by the degree of knowledge and good information you pass on. Not just a place to spend some time and have your ego stroked. I come here in hopes of helping someone that may need it and on the chance that I can learn something new. I'll save the agree to disagree for opinions and I have no problem doing that. Other than that you do have something that bothers me about you. That is when you tend to dismiss and and speak down to someone who isn't agreeing with you. If you are as open-minded and kumby-ya as you preach, you'll work on that some.

I am sorry if my style of speaking or the fact that I exist offends you.  Honestly, I do not have this type of problem with ANYONE I meet in real life.  But it is different when two people are face to face.  It makes things easier to discuss and understand.

So was that speaking down to you?  If so, again I apologize.  It was not intended, I am just tiring of the argument(s) and would like to move on before it pollutes the entire forum.

[Faux Pas]

I am sorry if my style of speaking or the fact that I exist offends you.  Honestly, I do not have this type of problem with ANYONE I meet in real life.  But it is different when two people are face to face.  It makes things easier to discuss and understand.

So was that speaking down to you?  If so, again I apologize.  It was not intended, I am just tiring of the argument(s) and would like to move on before it pollutes the entire forum.

You asked and I told you. I have no need or desire to continue this line of posting with you either. Your paranoia that I am out to get you or disagree with everything you say is unfounded. Your accusations of such toward me is getting old as well. I don't "pick" on anyone. When you state something stupid, expect to get called on it, I do.