The Emancipated Housewife (and Traditional Values)

[Admin]

How many of you can relate to this guy's perspective on American women?

What has gone on in the United States during the past two generations is full of lessons and warnings for the rest of the world. The American housewife of an earlier day was famous for her unremitting diligence. She not only cooked, washed and ironed; she also made shift to master such more complex arts as spinning, baking and brewing. Her expertness, perhaps, never reached a high level, but at all events she made a gallant effort. But that was long, long ago, before the new enlightenment rescued her. Today, in her average incarnation, she is not only incompetent (alack, as I have argued, rather beyond her control); she is also filled with the notion that a conscientious discharge of her few remaining duties is, in some vague way, discreditable and degrading. To call her a good cook, I daresay, was never anything but flattery; the early American cuisine was probably a fearful thing, indeed. But today the flattery turns into a sort of libel, and she resents it, or, at all events, does not welcome it. I used to know an American literary man, educated on the Continent, who married a woman because she had exceptional gifts in this department. Years later, at one of her dinners, a friend of her husband's tried to please her by mentioning the fact, to which he had always been privy. But instead of being complimented, as a man might have been if told that his wife had married him because he was a good lawyer, or surgeon, or carpenter, this unusual housekeeper, suffering a renaissance of usualness, denounced the guest as a liar, ordered him out of the house, and threatened to leave her husband.

This disdain of offices that, after all, are necessary, and might as well be faced with some show of cheerfulness, takes on the character of a definite cult in the United States, and the stray woman who attends to them faithfully is laughed at as a drudge and a fool, just as she is apt to be dismissed as a "brood sow" (I quote literally, craving absolution for the phrase: a jury of men during the late war, on very thin patriotic grounds, jailed the author of it) if she favours her lord with viable issue. One result is the notorious villainousness of American cookery—a villainousness so painful to a cultured uvula that a French hack-driver, if his wife set its masterpieces before him, would brain her with his linoleum hat. To encounter a decent meal in an American home of the middle class, simple, sensibly chosen and competently cooked, becomes almost as startling as to meet a Y. M.C.A. secretary in a bordello, and a good deal rarer. Such a thing, in most of the large cities of the Republic, scarcely has any existence. If the average American husband wants a sound dinner he must go to a restaurant to get it, just as if he wants to refresh himself with the society of charming and well-behaved children, he has to go to an orphan asylum. Only the immigrant can take his case and invite his soul within his own house.

[Seeker]

How many of you can relate to this guy's perspective on American women?

Depends on when it was written.  Now I see it as inflammatory and derogatory.  To me it seems judging a person/relationship using the wrong basis.  Or maybe it is just so much is missing from the story.  Either way, I found it painful to read.

[Boethius]

I know where that comes from, and I love that book.

[Seeker]

I know where that comes from, and I love that book.

Okay... you added "I love that book".  I was going to ask where it came from, but held back.  Knowing it comes from a book makes me want to ask now.  What book?

[Boethius]

Let's wait until others give their views.  Eventually, everything will be clear.

[GQBlues]

There really are times I find it so depressing to read stories about grown, adult men actually having to learn how to wash their own clothes and cook a meal for themselves, etc. WOW. Life really had become so tough for so many.  

Thank goodness, FWIW, men are still spared from having to birth their own young. phew, that definitely calls for Miller Time!  

Strange that this was written back in '22?

[SANDRO43]

I was going to ask where it came from, but held back.  Knowing it comes from a book makes me want to ask now.  What book?

Feed Google a snippet of that text, and you'll know .

[Seeker]

Feed Google a snippet of that text, and you'll know .

I know... but I like the development of the conversation.  And to be honest, I was already PM'ed with the details.

Google makes it too easy to seem knowledgeable without the actual experience.  I prefer to hear it from people I converse with (or read the book).  Learning can be fun... Google takes the fun out of it when there are real people I can learn from.

Though I do Google (and Bing) a lot of things, I prefer conversation.

[Shostakovich]

Ya, Google, what a miracle.

Reminds me of a speech by Hitler, describing the youth of his time.

In most quarters, 'American cuisine' is still something of a joke.  When I grew up it seemed 1/10 meals was made using a can of Campbell's mushroom soup.  Mighty tasty as I recall, but still pretty funny.  Here in the Pacific NW people know how to cook and many know their wines - it's the Switzerland of the US after all.  I guess it's that of the US part that we have to work on.  But in some pockets it's coming up.  As I write it's a lambic ale on the table with a fine tomato-mushroom risotto with Reggiano Parmeggiano -- of course, green beans sauteed in olive oil with lemon and herb-lettuce medley, dressed in a freshly made tarragon-mustard vinaigrette.  Yum-yum.  Think I'll make a celeriac potato-leek soup tomorrow, with a homemade chicken stock - that's essential, Alaskan halibut in herbs of Provence and to show you what a cunning saucier I am perhaps I shall present it in a simple rose shallot beurre blanc.  Wine?  Yes, a locally available Pinot Noir - I'm enjoying tobacco notes these days.  It seems be come with the more fruit driven Noirs.  Brilliant?  Certainly, but yet it is missing something  -- yes of course: snap peas are in season now.  I'll steam them and then lightly saute them in French butter.  You are all welcome to join.

Ya, what's the woman's role?  As for everyone else -- to figure out what that is and not be afraid of it.  In that connection old Fred has wisdom once again:

"Many a one throws away their final worth when they throw away their servitude" -- a principal Nazis of every stripe should keep in mind.





   

[Gylden]

Very interesting subject Dan!

IMO it is probably one of the key issues in WM/FSUW marriages (and I understand it does not apply to everyone).

 It seems to me society in the US is at the forefront of changes in connection with this emancipation.  In the FSU there seems to be a lag in regards to these changes, with a disproportionate acceleration in recent years.

I believe that most men who are a little older (40’s – 60’s) are most likely a little nostalgic about the role of women in the family. Not to say that they are not aware or disapprove of the changes in the role of women in society. Just that they somewhat are missing the role of the traditional mother/housewife in the family.

I grew up in a family with what might be referred to as having traditional values. Father worked and mother stayed home housewife/mother.  Mother was always the central figure in our household, my father exemplified this fact. As a child growing up, it was sure fantastic to come home from school and find a house filled with wonderful smells and be greeted by mother with a smile and a concern about how the day went and to receive sometimes stern/loving guidance on attending to homework/chores etc.  From our eyes (brother sister and I) it was clear how father had great respect and love for mother and vice versa.     
I won’t go on about it, as I do not wish to write a book here on the forum.

[SANDRO43]

I grew up in a family with what might be referred to as having traditional values. Father worked and mother stayed home housewife/mother. 

Same here, and my mother could well afford the long time necessary to prepare a delicious brasato al Barolo :

Begin the day before you plan to cook the meat....

http://italianfood.about.com/od/beefvealstews/r/blr0245.htm

Few Italian women can or will, nowadays.

[Doll]

But instead of being complimented, as a man might have been if told that his wife had married him because he was a good lawyer, or surgeon, or carpenter, this unusual housekeeper, suffering a renaissance of usualness, denounced the guest as a liar, ordered him out of the house, and threatened to leave her husband.

I don't blame her

[Doll]

I grew up in a family with what might be referred to as having traditional values. Father worked and mother stayed home housewife/mother.  Mother was always the central figure in our household, my father exemplified this fact. As a child growing up, it was sure fantastic to come home from school and find a house filled with wonderful smells and be greeted by mother with a smile and a concern about how the day went and to receive sometimes stern/loving guidance on attending to homework/chores etc.  From our eyes (brother sister and I) it was clear how father had great respect and love for mother and vice versa.     

I talked to many AW here- all say to depend on men is risky.
Also, I did talk to both my sons. they both prefer to have a working mother.
Housewives are not "popular" anymore (I mean my son's friends' mothers).
The boys are 16-17 yo

[Doll]

My husband was raised by a very mean step-father. J's mother didn't work because of "traditions" (Pennsylvanian Dutch family years ago). J. remembers how this man used to throw the "eating money" on the floor, so that his wife could go shopping.
J. hated his step dad, though always wants me to stay home.
No way. 99% men would take the financial and any other control over the women.
No.

[Shadow]

Although MrsShadow claims not to be able to reach the level of her mother, she still manages more basic-level cooking as many European men or women.

In my family my mother was not really fond of cooking, she did the "daily" stuff, where as my father was the one who liked to experiment and create more unusual things.

Once living alone I was usually limited by time, meaning I became a master in 30-minute-cooking, but enjoyed birthdays when I got the chance to cook for 4-8 people and could make some itneresting things.

Currently we mix it as our mood, time and supplies let us. However I enjoy the Russian style of using mostly natural components and starting at more basic level.

[Gylden]

Doll,
I am sure people who grew up in disfunctional families have different views on the matter.
There are great families however, who weren't subject to abusive behaviors by either the man or the woman. It is a matter of ones experiences and friends/acquaintances.

[Doll]

Doll,
I am sure people who grew up in disfunctional families have different views on the matter.
There are great families however, who weren't subject to abusive behaviors by either the man or the woman. It is a matter of ones experiences and friends/acquaintances.

What AW and RW imply (risk to depend) is about not having the nonfunctional family.
I agree. It eliminates the chance to go for disfunction.
I am a woman and look at "function" differently.
I do cook though 

[Doll]

The OP makes a woman "attached" to a family (cooking, cleaning, etc).
All these "smells in the house after school" is just a convenience for the ones who "smell".
My sons are more advanced- they want their mother "socially meaningful".
BTW, they both are Russian men (young though).

[Doll]

I really really doubt that the families where wives stay home and husbands work
(and "order music" in most cases) ARE functional.
Sorry, old times are gone  America (and Russia) like partnership, this is how life is now.

[Doll]

If the average American husband wants a sound dinner he must go to a restaurant to get it, just as if he wants to refresh himself with the society of charming and well-behaved children, he has to go to an orphan asylum. Only the immigrant can take his case and invite his soul within his own house.

Funny

[Gylden]

Doll,
Well, I strongly disagree with you. I know my mother enjoyed what she did and I also know that what she contributed was socially meaningful.
You have your views, which is totally understandable, why not let others to enjoy their own values.

It sounds like you must have had some really bad experiences in your life. Sorry to hear that.

I am glad to hear that you have raised advanced sons

[SFandEE]

I agree we are in a different time for women, especially America and the West.  It seems Russia is making the shift quickly too.  The point has been brought up that the transition happened in many of our lifetime and we have been in the middle of the culture change.

I do know women who do love the role of mother and nurturer as their primary role and get reward from this as a full-time undertaking.  The image of the smells of cookies when coming home from school created this sense.  Do others of you know women who put a highest priority on nurturing still?

I am entirely comfortable with professional women, I have to be it is my reality, but it also is good business.  What is troubling is when I hear comments that are dismissive of the choice to focus primarily on mothering.  The women that I know who are doing this are beginning to develop professional skills or have already done so depending on the stage of their family.

Happy, fulfilled women are  a good thing.  Hopefully they will know what is making them happy and our societies will support those choices.

[Doll]

Yes I did. The latest one is when I stayed at home ( as my husband (AM) wanted) and then heard some small and not so small things about "how he thinks".
 Your mother's life is the exception. It is not the example of ideal family in my book.
I guess, we are about same age and generation.
The USA values strong people. Strong people act in a tough way.

[Voyager36]

But instead of being complimented, as a man might have been if told that his wife had married him because he was a good lawyer, or surgeon, or carpenter, this unusual housekeeper, suffering a renaissance of usualness, denounced the guest as a liar, ordered him out of the house, and threatened to leave her husband.

I don't blame her

Really? I would be appalled if my wife was so disrespectful. There are times that one of us may not like a friend of our partner's or their views, but to disrupt the evening by creating some dramatic scene? I can't imagine either of us embarrassing the other that way.

[Ranetka]

I agree we are in a different time for women, especially America and the West.  It seems Russia is making the shift quickly too.  The point has been brought up that the transition happened in many of our lifetime and we have been in the middle of the culture change.


Happy, fulfilled women are  a good thing.  Hopefully they will know what is making them happy and our societies will support those choices.

Actually Russia makes shift to a different direction. For 70 years of Soviet Union women worked. And now, 18 years after the break up of the Soviet Union majority of Russian families have two working parents. For a average Russian woman not to work is a luxury, both parents need to work.

I am always surprised when people say Russian women are more traditional. Sure we cook and have closer families and normally say "yes darling" while courting, but not traditional in the western sense at all. Most Russian women I know not only make decisions for themselves but tell their husbands what to do too. Of course all different if one marries someone the age of his daughter.