Personal Banking in the Ukraine

[daveyj]

sigh....never mind. post deleted.  I should have known better.

[GregfromGa]

I recently set out to help my gf open a bank account in Kiev.  She's an old school Soviet girl (despite being relatively young) and didn't already have an account and was a little bit intimidated by the details/etc.   We've been together 6 months, and we want to work towards getting some tourist Visas with an eye to trying to build towards a tourist visa for her to visit Canada.  So we're establishing a money trail (ie regular deposits, assets, etc) to bolster her applications.

I wanted a bank that would allow me to transfer money directly into her account, and I quickly found out that there are virtually no western banks with retail branches in the Ukraine.

We ended up going with www.privatbank.ua .  They have an internet banking vehicle called Privat24.  They also allow direct deposit via an associated company called www.liqpay.com.   I can deposit into my liqpay account by credit card, and then transfer it directly into her account almost instantly (I only need her account number).  To open the liqpay account was very easy (and done over the internet).  For her to open her actual account at Privat Bank she had to go in person (with her passport and 10 digit citizen #).

The plan now is that I'll deposit regular amounts on the 15th and last day of each month.  Half she can spend, and half she saves.  Combined with her own cash income this will hopefully bolster her credibility for tourist visa applications later this year.  This also provides us a clear financial paper trail of my supporting her if we move towards a spousal visa.

It took me a lot of googling and time with the internet translator to figure this out.  So I'm posting it as a service to any others who might find this useful.

If anyone who is early in their search is reading this, please note that I had visited her 3 times in the Ukraine before I sent her any money (and in that case the money was via western union and was travel money for a vacation we were taking).  You should not be sending money to someone you have not met. 

ps In posting the info above, I'm not really looking for any relationship analysis or opinions, thanks in advance!)))

This is all very helpful information. How will you making deposits into her account help her get a tourist visa? I mean I'm just curious as to how you derived with this theory.

[acctBill]

Davey first bit of bad news, if you are Canadian and looking to marry your g/f in Canada, Canada doesn't have a spousal visa like the US.  Canadians marry their foreign g/f abroad, in her country or somewhere else.  Then you apply to CIC (Citizenship and Immigration Canada) for a family class visa for your spouse. Of course if your foreign g/f is already in Canada because she is going to school or business then you can marry in Canada.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/sponsor/spouse-apply-who.asp#spouse

[daveyj]

Davey first bit of bad news, if you are Canadian and looking to marry your g/f in Canada, Canada doesn't have a spousal visa like the US.  Canadians marry their foreign g/f abroad, in her country or somewhere else.  Then you apply to CIC (Citizenship and Immigration Canada) for a family class visa for your spouse. Of course if your foreign g/f is already in Canada because she is going to school or business then you can marry in Canada.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/sponsor/spouse-apply-who.asp#spouse

AcctBill, I'm well aware of the immigration rules for Canada and the components therein.

Sigh...nevermmind. The rest of my post deleted. 

[GregfromGa]

Maybe Canada is different but proof of ties has more to do with job time, property that is owned and anything else that insures that the lovely young lady will return. Having a bank account with a few hundred hrivnas in it will do little to insure her return.

[GregfromGa]

So this Daveyj sends me a PM and says "Before you slandered my woman you were ignored by 9 now it's 10". Brilliant.  It's no surprise that only about 1% of the people who start this process have any relative success. I actually think I get dumber by reading some of these posts but I soldier on because I'm here to help.

[Gylden]

Greg,

LOL, this is why there are so many disaster stories out there. It seems Daveyj is not looking for advice, but is giving it and IMO it is not good advice. The disclaimer and attitude are again IMO just showing that he has doubts too.

As you said Greg, deposits into a bank account do absolutely nothing to support intention to return home, after the visit. Money in the bank is evidence of having the financial resources to travel.

If I read this correctly, he is also of the belief that she shouldn't say she will visit a friend either. IMO this is the kind of visa application, which makes for all of the fears about being rejected, as it is certainly about missleading information.

[Boethius]

daveyj's advice was neither about women nor immigration, but about the easiest way to open a bank account.  

One of the factors Canada takes into account in granting a visitor visa is whether the individual has enough money to cover a Canadian visit.  So, proof of a bank account with enough cash to cover the visit is a factor taken into account in granting a Canadian visitor visa.   In fact, having been through this process, I know that it is a major factor.  

Exactly where is the bad advice?

[Gylden]

Sorry, I guess I came across a bit harsh.

Bank accounts are fine and I know that people must show financial evidence to support their trip. However, you can just transfer enough money at one time to cover the costs of travel. Seems like to me by making regular deposits, it is an attempt to suggest she has a good paying job or ?? Like I said, if I read it correctly, can be I didn't, but if I did or if anyone else gets the same impression I will warn against it, as it is the beginning of a deception, which if perceived by the interviewer can go bad for the application and depending on how blatant, future applications as well.

Don't mean to offend anyone, just contributing from my experience.

[Boethius]

Or perhaps daveyj just wishes to support the lady, and build the account over time, rather than immediately.  

All the Canadian government will see is the bank balance.  The timing of the deposits is irrelevant.

I don't see any deception here.  He is helping her so that she can obtain a visitor visa.

[Gylden]

"So we're establishing a money trail (ie regular deposits, assets, etc) to bolster her applications."



It is great to try to want to support someone and you are right, the timimg of the deposits are irrelevant.

Again, I don't mean to be harsh, just to stay focused and avoid problems with visas.

[Shadow]

I hope that you will still be looking for advise.

Do not put money in to any small Ukrainian or Russian bank. They can hardly be trusted, and if there is any sign of crisis they will lock their offices and make the money unreachable faster than you can say Hrivna.
Go for the large government backed banks if you really need the account. Sure, the system is locally more complicated as in Western banks, but for you to put money in to the account all you need is an international wire transfer by SWIFT. Total cost will be around $20, which will certainly be lass as WU or bringing it personally.

[Gylden]

I hope that you will still be looking for advise.

Do not put money in to any small Ukrainian or Russian bank. They can hardly be trusted, and if there is any sign of crisis they will lock their offices and make the money unreachable faster than you can say Hrivna.
Go for the large government backed banks if you really need the account. Sure, the system is locally more complicated as in Western banks, but for you to put money in to the account all you need is an international wire transfer by SWIFT. Total cost will be around $20, which will certainly be lass as WU or bringing it personally.

Absolutely Shadow!! and to add:  avoid cash advance charges on your credit card as well.

[GregfromGa]

I got an email from a friend of mine that works at the Canadian Consulate. Actually he's not a friend but we did have a few pints in Obriens more than once and I just happened to keep his card so I shot him an email earlier. Nice guy. Big fan of American football so we hit it off. He tells me that the only thing that matters is ties to Ukraine that will insure that the girl will return. In his words, property, job time, kids are all ties that bind in most cases but of course he said there are exceptions. He tells me that a checking account carries no weight. According to him 17 checking accounts will not matter. Everything is on the discretion of the compliance officer. This guy is a compliance officer so I'll take his word for it. He said it's the officers job to sniff out fraud cases and there is a lot of it according to him. I dont know if this helps but at least it's out there now so anyone can do with it what they want.

[BC]

In his words, property, job time, kids are all ties that bind in most cases but of course he said there are exceptions. He tells me that a checking account carries no weight. According to him 17 checking accounts will not matter.

That's right on the spot.

Having funds in the bank only helps assert that one has the monetary means to afford the trip, only one ingredient.  After all the only 'ties' presented lead to the next ATM and they are everywhere.  A high bank balance without much else in the 'mix' might even be a negative.

[Boethius]

Your friend won't even see the visa application if financial information is missing.  It is a "standard" question on the form, which has to be fully completed.  

BC, I know of at least 10 Ukrainians here on travel visas (or so they say), 3 of whom are self employed in Ukraine.  All are young males, and likely should have been denied visas.

The Canadian government has had a lot of problems with its embassy in Ukraine.

I wouldn't trust large banks in Ukraine either.  They've been known to close their doors as well.  My husband has a relative who is the head of one of Ukraine's biggest banks.  He is, as my husband describes him, a "wooden headed former commie".  He has no training in banking, business, or economics, but does have significant ties to Ukraine's former nomenklatura/today's ruling elite.

I set up a bank account here, and gave my MIL a bank card.  I never have more than a couple hundred dollars in the account, so that if it's compromised there, it's not a big hassle.   She makes one withdrawal, on a designated date.  My only cost is the monthly bank fee for the account, which is $7 (and the ATM withdrawal, which is $2.50).

[daveyj]

I am being roundly misquoted.  

Although I have deleted my original post, the quote from gregfromga shows that I clearly stated the intent to "work towards getting some tourist Visas with an eye to trying to build towards a tourist visa for her to visit Canada".

Successful trips to (and returns from) visa countries (schengen, etc) carry weight for future applications for other countries in demonstrating the applicant can be trusted to return.

While I'm at it, I never said that I'm planning on marrying her in Canada, and I never said to open an account with a small Ukrainian bank.  There is already too much confusion and misinformation in the world as it is, I respectfully request that you could refrain from creating a straw man (straw post?) to tear down.  

ps. I apologize for breaking my promise to not post again in the thread.

[GregfromGa]

According to my friend, their consulate is really starting to scrutinize  each and every application. He did tell me that they are not doing business like they were a year ago. He did however say that a checking account is not required in every case. He said almost verbatim that they cant expect every babushka from every village visiting family to have a checking account. Again it is all on the discretion of the interviewing officer according to him. He did say that cases of obvious fraud are red flagged in their system and the hope for a visa is almost 100% denied from here on out. He did say they would continue to take the application fee however. That sounds a lot like the American Embassy as well.

[GregfromGa]

I am being roundly misquoted.  

Although I have deleted my original post, the quote from gregfromga shows that I clearly stated the intent to "work towards getting some tourist Visas with an eye to trying to build towards a tourist visa for her to visit Canada".

Successful trips to (and returns from) visa countries (schengen, etc) carry weight for future applications for other countries in demonstrating the applicant can be trusted to return.

While I'm at it, I never said that I'm planning on marrying her in Canada, and I never said to open an account with a small Ukrainian bank.  There is already too much confusion and misinformation in the world as it is, I respectfully request that you could refrain from creating a straw man (straw post?) to tear down.  

ps. I apologize for breaking my promise to not post again in the thread.

It reads like to me that you have it all figured out. Hopefully things will go they way you want. It seems to me that you have vast experience in finance, dating Ukrainian women and travel abroad so I'm sure you've done all your homework. I'm just not as up to date on Canadian visa requirements to be of much assistance.

[Daveman]

I am being roundly misquoted.  

Although I have deleted my original post, the quote from gregfromga shows that I clearly stated the intent to "work towards getting some tourist Visas with an eye to trying to build towards a tourist visa for her to visit Canada".

Successful trips to (and returns from) visa countries (schengen, etc) carry weight for future applications for other countries in demonstrating the applicant can be trusted to return.

While I'm at it, I never said that I'm planning on marrying her in Canada, and I never said to open an account with a small Ukrainian bank.  There is already too much confusion and misinformation in the world as it is, I respectfully request that you could refrain from creating a straw man (straw post?) to tear down.  

ps. I apologize for breaking my promise to not post again in the thread.

daveyj, I've been following this thread and other than typical discussion and thread drift along tributary thoughts, I don't see anyone accusing you of much of anything. 

greg, while there's nothing in the ToS which prevents such, generally it's accepted that PM's (private messages) are private and to post them along with the name of the sender is considered bad form.

If a PM is truly offensive, or contains something illegal, the best course is to report it using the "report" functionality available withing the PM structure. 

Back to the topic of Visitor Visas to Canada... well, I have absolutely *no clue*.  I do know the return rate at some Ukrainian banks is as high as 26% if you're willing to take a major risk of the bank actually being there when the term is complete 

[GregfromGa]

daveyj, I've been following this thread and other than typical discussion and thread drift along tributary thoughts, I don't see anyone accusing you of much of anything. 

greg, while there's nothing in the ToS which prevents such, generally it's accepted that PM's (private messages) are private and to post them along with the name of the sender is considered bad form.

If a PM is truly offensive, or contains something illegal, the best course is to report it using the "report" functionality available withing the PM structure. 

Back to the topic of Visitor Visas to Canada... well, I have absolutely *no clue*.  I do know the return rate at some Ukrainian banks is as high as 26% if you're willing to take a major risk of the bank actually being there when the term is complete 

I didn't know it was in bad form. I sincerely apologize with all my heart. It just hurt my feelings when he put me on ignore that's all. And then proceeded to remind me about the other 9 that have me on their ignore. He said I "slandered his woman" and I certainly didn't see where anything I said could have been construed as demeaning toward his lady friend.

[Daveman]

I didn't know it was in bad form. I sincerely apologize with all my heart. It just hurt my feelings when he put me on ignore that's all. And then proceeded to remind me about the other 9 that have me on their ignore. He said I "slandered his woman" and I certainly didn't see where anything I said could have been construed as demeaning toward his lady friend.

I guess the useful lifespan of the topic is at an end anyway, so I'll go ahead and comment here.  I was going to send this in a PM but was afraid you'd demean my lady and post it publicly  (joking of course).  Perhaps it will influence a few to remove you from ignore status and perhaps not, but here goes...

Gregg, I have to agree with jb that anyone who does have or places you on ignore is truly missing out on a perspective of in depth experience which, IMO, shouldn't be ignored (pun obviously intended).  Your methodology of posting doesn't bother me a bit (I actually see a lot of humor in your posts that perhaps some take too seriously), however, I think with some others, your liberal usage of terms such as "dumbass" tends to alienate.  The thing is, being a fellow Georgian, I understand easily that THAT is just the way we talk in a laid back environment (which I think this should be for the most part).  I think that rubs people the wrong way here in the written venue and has you coming across in a way that's neither really you nor necessarily your intended persona. 

That being said, you continue with the same antics which tend to bring the same result, but you're obviously expecting something different.. what does that tell ya?  No need to answer.. just food for thought since it bothers you that people are ignoring you. 

[ECOCKS]

Hi Davey:

Normally I'd send you a PM instead of a post, but they aren't working for me right now.

If you're confident that the gal isn't just playing you for the cash, helping her build a travel record over a period of time to those countries which are regarded as having more difficult visas to get will help your application within the American system. The bank account per se, doesn't help very much as a record because it is easy enough for such documents to be produced falsely in Ukraine.

That said, if the Canadian Embassy is working on this in a manner similar to the US, have her meet you in Bulgaria next visit good beaches), maybe Czech Republic after that (great fall spot) and then shoot for Italy, Greece, Spain or even France (if you dare!) on the one after that.  This, of course, assumes you feel no need to learn more about her home and cultural background although you could still head to her home before or after the trip. These trips may require you to use agencies for arrangements (especially at first) and normally it is not recommended that she mention the presence of a western boyfriend. Be patient, this will be a slow process if you are going to carry this through.

Please feel free to PM or email me with how this works out for you. Others can benefit either way from your experience.

Good Luck.

[daveyj]

Since June we've been using Liqpay for bank deposits to my gf's Ukraine bank account.  It was all very convenient.  I would deposit by credit card to liqpay, and then transfer it to her Privat Bank account, and the money arrived the same day.  No problems.

Unfortunately, as of last week Liqpay suddenly does not allow for deposits from non-CIS credit cards.

Thus, I'm back to square one. Namely, looking for some way to deposit directly to her account.  Or, in the alternate, looking for some way to transfer money directly into Liqpay.

From what I can see about Yandex Money and Webmoney, is that they are difficult to deposit to from outside the CIS without a significant "brokerage" fee of 10%.  And again, I find the whole Western Union, Moneygram, process such a pain. 

A bank transfer costs $50, and I need to be there in person to sign each one (at least at my bank).  It is so bizarre that it is so difficult to send money into the CIS. Most countries want the money to come in.

Anyway, if anyone has any practical, factual experience with how to make a direct transfer/deposit into a Ukraine bank account, (or into Liqpay), please let me know.
Thx
dj

[ECOCKS]

Wells Fargo charges me $20 to transfer money to our account in Ukraine which I do once a month. Most of the time we just use ATM cards for $5 transaction fees (max $250) though.