Some thoughts about scams

[diverboy70]

There is a lot of talk of red flags and situations when you should just break communications and concider someone a scammer. Sometimes I get a feeling that people are thinking that there are a set of rules that points out a scamer for certain.

This is a very dificult way to find your life partner, and it is a very lucrative market for persons/companies trying to feed of lonely mens wallets.

Yes, there are a lot of scammers out there. But if you have a level mind you will spot 99% of these very fast. Take a couple of months communicating with a lot of diferent women. You will soon get a grasp of how this works!

Use free or low cost sites with free commuication.

Then there is a very big grey zone. Maybe women wanting to have a better life and who are willing to marry a man who maybe not is their dream man, is that a scam?

A western man with no carisma and not beeing able to find a girl locally, but with a big wallet, finding this woman. Is this a reverse scam?

All people have their own motives for commitment and relationship. I think the bigest scam is that there is any substanial difference in interaction between man and woman just based on where she/is originating from.

"My own girl" is a type A example of a case where all of this "red flag" people would have run away a long time ago. A beautifull young blond girl from Odessa. Even if we are not a couple and have not met yet, we have allways been very honest and straight with each other. She knows exactly how the game works, from the RW side. We just started out as friends, having children in the same age. The feelings have slowely grown and now we are thinking of maybe meet in real life. We are both very realitsic people and have not talked about any common future yet.

This girl has teached me a lot of how some RW use western men for their own benefit. She has also dated some rich foreigners. She said she was at some time thinking of marrying one of them, just for the ease of getting an easy life. But she never really loved him.

I think we as western men also have the same responsibility to proove that we are serious. I cant even count the times I have been talking with girls, who went in to this with blue eyes and just got a lot of e-mails asking for naked photos, isnt that a scam from the WM side?

To conclude this: Yes there are a lot of scammers, bot RW and WM, all with their own reasons. But if you have a level head and are determined you can find your woman in FSU as well as you can locally. There is no easy way to say who is a scammer and to define a scammer.

[diverboy70]

I can also add that if you have bad "people skills" or problems reading peoples intention, this is not the way for you! RW are very good at hiding feelings and intentions if that is what they want.

[Faux Pas]

I think we as western men also have the same responsibility to proove that we are serious. I cant even count the times I have been talking with girls, who went in to this with blue eyes and just got a lot of e-mails asking for naked photos, isnt that a scam from the WM side?

To conclude this: Yes there are a lot of scammers, bot RW and WM, all with their own reasons. But if you have a level head and are determined you can find your woman in FSU as well as you can locally. There is no easy way to say who is a scammer and to define a scammer.

There is quite a number of "level heads" that get their asses handed to them. Nonetheless, most posters of experience at RWD thoroughly advocate keeping one's wits about them and thinking with the big head as opposed to the small one. More often than not this is where even level headed guys get sucked in to scammers.

As far as the flags go, as long as there are scammers, there will be flags and they should be paid attention to. Not necessarily acted upon but, paid attention to. The only bonafide red flag is when a woman asks for money. Unfortunately most do not do that until they have the man's emotions dangling on a line like a fish. IMO the flags red and yellow should be adhered to and pointed out as such whenever they are identified.

No all flags are flags and not all women who exhibit such behavior are scammers but, the behavior is a common thread among scammers and should be pointed out to the unsuspecting souls

[diverboy70]

Insert Quote
Quote from: diverboy70 on Today at 07:09:54 AM

I think we as western men also have the same responsibility to proove that we are serious. I cant even count the times I have been talking with girls, who went in to this with blue eyes and just got a lot of e-mails asking for naked photos, isnt that a scam from the WM side?

To conclude this: Yes there are a lot of scammers, bot RW and WM, all with their own reasons. But if you have a level head and are determined you can find your woman in FSU as well as you can locally. There is no easy way to say who is a scammer and to define a scammer.



There is quite a number of "level heads" that get their asses handed to them. Nonetheless, most posters of experience at RWD thoroughly advocate keeping one's wits about them and thinking with the big head as opposed to the small one. More often than not this is where even level headed guys get sucked in to scammers.

As far as the flags go, as long as there are scammers, there will be flags and they should be paid attention to. Not necessarily acted upon but, paid attention to. The only bonafide red flag is when a woman asks for money. Unfortunately most do not do that until they have the man's emotions dangling on a line like a fish. IMO the flags red and yellow should be adhered to and pointed out as such whenever they are identified.

No all flags are flags and not all women


I am sorry that I admited that obvious fact about sending money. I have no proplems with "flags" as you just treat them as a way to be concerned and not in them self a reason to cut off.

[Faux Pas]

I am sorry that I admited that obvious fact about sending money. I have no proplems with "flags" as you just treat them as a way to be concerned and not in them self a reason to cut off.

I think we basically agree here but from reading your OP, I thought it misleading. Flags, red or yellow should not be ignored but, filed away for future reference. When a woman displays one or two signs (flags) of scammer behavior she should be approached with caution. Doesn't mean she's a scammer and shouldn't IMO be labeled as one until she asks for money. I would say a rough estimate when a woman displays these flags and the behavior that goes with it, 7 of 10 are in fact scamming in one form or another.

Let's face it, most guys get drawn into this pursuit by a pretty picture usually from an unsavory marriage website and are fleeced almost immediately. Even the level headed guys to a large degree. Somehow they rationalize the ladies behavior, the agency's and their own behavior into thinking that, this is how it is done. When the truth is far from that.

[diverboy70]

Yes Faux Pas, I think we can agree on not ignoring the flags. I however would not agree with you on the percentage.

I dont know about the agencies, since I have mostly been on dating sites. One of the good sides of that is that the obvious scammers are easy to spot, they are not so sophisticated there.

Another point is to never do and visit a girl you have not talked to on the phone. Skype is also very common in the FSU.

[daveyj]

I was a Shakespeare director for a while, and I was constantly admonishing my actors that their perception of their characters must acknowledge ALL of the details available to them.  So often they would veer off on a tangent due to one detail, even when that tangent was so inconsistent with other facts about their character.

The same thing happens in life - we focus upon one detail or event and treat it as if it trumps everything else.

One analogy I use is to consider a person to be like the path through a slalom ski race.  There are many factual "gates" on the mountain of their personality, and if I am unable to integrate all of those elements into my understanding then the only thing I know for sure is that I don't understand them.

In theatre, as in life, it is not enough to simply ask "why have they done this (requested this?) to/from me?".  One must also ask, "why have they not done something different? or to someone else?".

If someone is a scammer, then either they are scamming many others or there is some specific reason why they are scamming you in particular.  Personally, I am fortunate that I've never been the victim of a "hard scam" (ie sending money, paying for expensive taxi's etc), and I've had only minimum exposure to any "soft scams" (ie free dinner, etc).  For the most part, I've received what I expected in my various encounters.

From my perspective it seems to me like most scams are pretty obvious, although at different points in my not so distant past I freely admit that I would have been an easy mark, and I'm not holding myself up as immune to scams.  But I am suggesting to anyone who thinks they are being scammed should equally consider any factual evidence to the contrary. Don't listen to words or explanations, but rather simply and dispassionately evaluate their prior actions (or lack thereof)

Those who knowingly deceive others in the arena of relationships are parasites, and I have no pity for them.  But I also think that there is a natural stage of vulnerability(doubt? confusion?) in the development of emotional intimacy between two people, and it seems that sometimes during this stage there is a temptation for men on this board to retreat into the comfort of scam-accusations without considering the many other possible explanations.

In closing, I would say that my opinion is this - a relationship between a WM and FSU woman is first and foremost a relationship between a man and a women, and is prone to all of the ambiguity and complexity therein.  

If you wouldn't say or do something (or accuse something) to a western woman, then I think you should think carefully before you say or do it to a FSU woman just because you worry you are being scammed.  Similarly, I think the corollary is true, and that if a FSU woman starts asking things that you wouldn't put up with from a western woman than you should proceed with caution.

[Miri22]

Very, very well said!

[diverboy70]

Those who knowingly deceive others in the arena of relationships are parasites, and I have no pity for them.  But I also think that there is a natural stage of vulnerability(doubt? confusion?) in the development of emotional intimacy between two people, and it seems that sometimes during this stage there is a temptation for men on this board to retreat into the comfort of scam-accusations without considering the many other possible explanations.



It is this uncertanty and confussion I am talking about. It goes two ways, she may be testing your commitment, she may be testing you, in a way that you see as a scam, but is normal courting in the FSU

My feeling is that any serious girl is more looking for a "soul connection" before just money. Then of course there are the really good looking girls, set out to find the good looking, rich guy. It is no diferent from LA, London or Paris. It is just irrelevant to this site. These girls can be found in every European or FSU city. I see these cases more like a marriage of conviniennce rather than of love. Some of the richest men in Russia are married to beautifull young European women, half their age. Is this love, or a scam?

[Daveman]

It is this uncertanty and confussion I am talking about. It goes two ways, she may be testing your commitment, she may be testing you, in a way that you see as a scam, but is normal courting in the FSU

What are some examples that you see as tests misconstrued as scams but are normal courting behaviors in the FSU?

[Aloe]

You know what i hate? man-whore-scammers who talk to you like you are their only one, and talk about love and life together, marriage, and all that, and then they turn out to be feeding exact same bs to 5 other women. There are way too many of them out there

[GQBlues]

Getting scammed is just as bad, if not worst, than getting lost within its structured preventive rules that you completely lose the elemental dynamics of dating. Or more importantly, willingly gulps the kool-aide and blatantly ignore obvious incompatabilities. Bad behavior is neither cultural nor a fundamental trade-off for pretty blue eyes. Never has been, never will be.

So many men get scammed not because they didn't know better. They get scammed, even willingly, despite knowing better! Life choices more often are made because of primal need and want over reasoned necessity, unfortunate as that may be. It's part of being human.

Its often said people are 90% animal and 10% human. If so, it's that silly 10% that always seem to get us in trouble.

[diverboy70]

Daveman -> I will not give any details about any girl.

Aloe -> I am serious in this search, I expect the same from "my partner" if I find a girl that is not serious, I just stop communicate.

I am allways honest in my communications. I am not looking for a madonna. Just a normal woman who also can accept my son. I am not looking in the FSU because I cant find anyone here. But I want one more child and I do not want to date someone at 45 with two childs!

[Daveman]

Daveman -> I will not give any details about any girl.

Okay, fair enough, so how about some examples of the generic behavior representing the "tests" to which you were referring without any specific details about any particular woman?

[BillyB]

One of the good sides of that is that the obvious scammers are easy to spot,
 

Scammers who write canned letters are easy to spot. If I remember correctly, you got scammed another way. You didn't have enough quality phone calls with a RW, jumped on a plane too quickly to see her, she didn't care for you and you got robbed shortly after. Maybe a coincidence but I think it was planned by the lady who lured you to see her.

You know what i hate? man-whore-scammers who talk to you like you are their only one, and talk about love and life together, marriage, and all that, and then they turn out to be feeding exact same bs to 5 other women. There are way too many of them out there
 

Ladies receive much more promises from men than men get from women. I got ridiculed for having a secret profile but you can easily wipe out all the dishonest people with it. If you can eliminate all the people playing games and lying to you, you'd have more time associating with the honest people. Just think where you'd be Aloe if you married one of those dishonest persons? How did you find out they are saying the same thing to other women?

[Faux Pas]

More often than not, when a woman has exhibits some form of scammer behavior she immediately gets labeled a scammer by some of the the posters when she may very well not be a scammer. This quite often plants the seed in some unsuspecting newbie's mind that all who do this act or that request are automatically scammers. It is perpetual and it feeds itself. Early on I found myself caught up in the same feeding frenzy actually doing what I am warning against here.

One flag, two flags, three flags don't necessarily mean a thing or could mean everything. A request for money is usually a tale-tell sign but, with many sophisticated patient scams, they wait until the fruit is ripe to pick and the man has some emotional investment before the money pop. I believe some of these guys tip their hand when they are willing to send money. Everything has to examined and considered as and when they happen. The most innocent and sincere woman could raise a few flags in between her ignorance, innocence, lack of English skills  and translation program. Granted, many men that enter this game cannot tell the difference. Conversely, the most skilled scammer will never lead on what she/he may be up to until the money pop and be perceived by the man as completely sincere even after a request for money..

There is no hard and true identifying scammers early on, just signs one needs to be aware of. Strictly for caution.



 

[Daveman]

Some excellent observations in this thread.

My take on this is that we all have a built in "scam-proof" system.  That system also protects us from insincere ladies, personality incompatibilities, etc. -- and that's that little friend the "inner voice".  It will always identify when something ain't quite right. 

We have an old souther adage I just made up "If yew thank tha inner voice is the enemy of yer genitalia, you just might be a dumbass"

If you find yourself making excuses to silence that voice, you are most likely on path leading somewhere you don't want to be... for whatever reason...

[Shadow]

Not all that is supposed to be scam really is a scam.
Also the goal posts are constantly changing, you only have to look at the current advice on looking for a sincere woman.
When I was looking the following were supposed to be at least yellow flags:
- Having a computer at home
- Having internet access by a DSL line instead of dial-up
- Having a cellphone of her own
- Using programs like ICQ or MSN

This was in 2005. Right now people would say it was a yellow flag if the woman would NOT have any of these.

[diverboy70]

Billy B:  you know nothing about my details. You were totally into a girl, who got cold feets and bailed out. And now you are trying to act as mentor. You failed yourself on your personality

[BillyB]

you know nothing about my details.

I only know what you wrote. I wasn't the only person who thought you got scammed.

You were totally into a girl, who got cold feets and bailed out. And now you are trying to act as mentor. You failed yourself on your personality

There must be something in water you're drinking up there in those Northern European countries because you and SeriouslyJaded like to attack people by way of talking about their past relationships. Do you know how many people here didn't have a successful romance with the first person they met? Do you know how many people here didn't have a successful first marriage? You got a lot of ammo so fire away.

You and SJ should stop cherry picking what you read. My ex fiancee got cold feet to come to America, not because of me or my personality. She wanted me to marry her in Uzbekistan instead but I got kids from a previous marriage I do not want to be far from. Months later she was ready to come to America but I didn't think she was mentally ready. I still talk to her on the phone because she is a good person and a friend and she talks to me because she feels I'm the same way. I know she's hurt because she felt I rejected her the second time. I need a stronger person in my life that won't be affected by her surroundings so much. That's life. It happens.

[kievstar]

A man who has a big league will meet less scammers.  A man who knows his league will see less scammers.  This is problem #1 as men go outside of their league to much.  League is not just income and looks.

Diverboy, I would encourage for you to get on a plane and seal the deal.  Only one potentially red flag I see as she talked about dating rich foreigners to you.  That is a common practice of trying to get you a little jealous and open the wallet upon arrival.  If she really had a chance to marry a rich guy, I doubt she would say anything to you about it.  You will also find RW in Ukraine will tell you exactly how they feel once they know you.  They do not hold back. 

[Daveman]

Well now, this should become more interesting now that there are launch pending fecal rockets aimed squarely at the rotary oscillator.... missile lock!

... You will also find RW in Ukraine will tell you exactly how they feel once they know you.  They do not hold back. 

That does seem to be true, and I have the burn marks on my eardrums to lend credibility to the theory...

[GQBlues]

No all flags are flags and not all women

I am sorry that I admitted that obvious fact about sending money. I have no proplems with "flags" as you just treat them as a way to be concerned and not in them self a reason to cut off.

DB-

Not sure if you did what was stated above e.g. sending money, as I do not know your story. I am aware that sending money is a one of the commandments on this and other sites....

Having said that, I sent money to the woman I am married to 5 years going now. She was one of 3 women that came from out of town to meet me in Moscow. Yes, I sent all three traveling monies and expense i.e. taxis, meals, etc... Was I worried I was being scammed? Hell no. Did I trust each one of them? Trust, no - benefit of the doubt, absolutely. For me, I was well within my comfort zone and heavily relied upon my own sense of self, social experience and common sense.

I can only be held responsible for my own actions, thus I try my damnedest always to act responsibly and well within my comfort. Had none of them show up in Moscow and simply taken my money - then the mistake was not sending the money, but rather the mistake took place between our first respective correspondences to the time I began to feel at ease enough to drive to WU. This wasn't a risk for me, it was part of the process I was comfortable with personally.

I'm not advocating men send or not send money. Heck, I am not advocating nor promote marrying anyone from outside your culture, period.

[Aloe]

Not all that is supposed to be scam really is a scam.
Also the goal posts are constantly changing, you only have to look at the current advice on looking for a sincere woman.
When I was looking the following were supposed to be at least yellow flags:
- Having a computer at home
- Having internet access by a DSL line instead of dial-up
- Having a cellphone of her own
- Using programs like ICQ or MSN

This was in 2005. Right now people would say it was a yellow flag if the woman would NOT have any of these.

wow thats bizzarre   i had all those things in 2002 and i was 14, let alone older people in 2005! lol. By 2005 the only people without cellphones and DSL were bums and village people

[Aloe]

i remember most of the school kids get cell phones by 2003