the "girlfriend" experience?

[azureroo]

Hi All,

I'm having a great time here in Ukraine, and besides what I learn't from my own past experience (re introduction story), and the benefit of having discovered this website, I haven't been too afraid to enjoy a summer here.

I just wondered how the group stood on girls that seem to offer the "girlfriend" experience?
Do we class them as hookers?, since they don't ask for cash for their services..........just suggest shopping trips :-D

I will not name the girl or city where I have been for the last week, as I am not suggesting I was scammed in any way at all. I knew exactly what we were exchanging, and had a great time. My concern is that others might get caught thinking they have a REAL relationship going on, and start supporting them afterwards.

Red flags:
you never meet their friends or family.....there is always an excuse.
Lots of time at home in privacy of YOUR apartment, not her home.
She always wants to meet you, not have you pick her up.
Again, lots of time at home, not out in public
If in public, then little outward affection compared to how she is in private.
She is mind blowing good at things she shouldn't be at her age :-)
Asks to go shopping with you, and then trys things on. If you approve.....you're buying :-)
You then never see those clothes worn while you are there!
"Do these earrings/ring etc look good on me honey?" ....you're buying :-)

Does any of this really matter if you recognise it and enter the arraingement willingly?

[BC]

Don't worry about it at all, just have fun and play it 'safe' between consenting adults.

Sometimes the 'just for fun' relationships end up being the most honest with the only danger of getting emotionally entangled.

[I/O]

Does any of this really matter if you recognise it and enter the arraingement willingly?

No brainer. A good deal is one where there is a bit in it for everyone involved.

[SFandEE]

My impression is that this is the dating that many from both groups are seeking through this energy of international dating.  I guess the awkwardness of actually classifying is not acceptable.  It also might provide too close a look at one of the realities behind courtship.

[Gator]

I just wondered how the group stood on girls that seem to offer the "girlfriend" experience?
Do we class them as hookers?, since they don't ask for cash for their services..........just suggest shopping trips :-D

The generally accepted term is prodater, yet I think that term applies only if she does not have sex.  And the man is always a foreigner.

What you have is more of the initial stage of a beginning sponsor situation, i. e. Sugar Daddy.  The man can be a local or an expat.  From what I have been told, it is not uncommon in the FSU.  Sponsorships have a shelf life.

You are in a rebound from a divorce if I recall correctly.  So you are not ready for marriage, or perhaps not even ready to think about it.  She realizes that fact, and this is her justification for the relationship.  As BC says, both of you are consenting adults.

Evidently she likes sex with you.  Enjoy it for the period while your mind clears and refocuses.  In summary, it is a win-win. Please no guilt even if there is no long-term future. 

[Boethius]

In summary, it is a win-win.

Really?  If you don't mind sleeping with prostitutes, I suppose it's a win-win.  Just recognize that you are a john.

[ECOCKS]

These are the gals that I always consider amateur hookers (since sex immediately reared its head) or serial international daters (even if the sex doesn't happen). A few expensive meals and gifts, some physical gratification for both (hopefully) and then on to the next guy who actually is saying he's showing up in the next week or so. It's more like playing a game than seeking a meaningful relationship in your life.

If that's your objective then you don't seem to be pursuing a serious relationship in your time visiting and might be better served just admitting to yourself that you're looking more for pleasure, some pictures/memories and gratification than long-term relationships which hopefully lead to marriage.

[BC]

Really?  If you don't mind sleeping with prostitutes, I suppose it's a win-win.  Just recognize that you are a john.

Boethius, Nothing wrong with just enjoying some fun and sharing luxuries in life. 

A business partner told me once 'In the end, we're all whores'.. and it doesn't even have to be for sex..

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128011084&ps=cprs

Surely some of these guys might end up with companionship by the end of the evening.. Is it only the sex that makes it 'bad'?

[Boethius]

To each his own.  It's not a moral judgment.  She's not a girlfriend, nor is she providing a "girlfriend experience".  

I was only calling a spade a spade.  

Would he be spending all that "quality time" with her, or taking her shopping, if there wasn't sex at the end of the evening?  Would she be spending this time with him if he weren't buying her "presents"?  She probably knows if she takes money, the police can steal it, she can be charged with prostitution, and if she's a student, or is beginning a career, it will be over.

He could find a similar "girlfriend" in the US, but she would be pricier.

I don't understand the desire to "warn" other men.  That's why they're there.

[BC]

To each his own.  It's not a moral judgment.  She's not a girlfriend.  

I was only calling a spade a spade.  

Would he be spending all that "quality time" with her, or taking her shopping, if there wasn't sex at the end of the evening?

Lets say the evening ended with a peck on the cheek.. would he call the cops to report that she didn't fulfill the contract terms?  Sounds like sex was a pleasurable and mutually agreeable option.  Dunno if that makes it any different in your book, but who knows, they might even hit it off and live happily ever after.

Long ago I was complaining to a girl about having to clean up my apartment over the weekend.. she offered to assist and we agreed on an hourly wage.  She arrived on time, we cleaned the apartment together and somehow nature took it's course.. was she a prostitute? hmm..  what about all the stories of guys hooking up with their translators instead..

At the very root of things sex is simply fun and how you got in the sack really doesn't matter all that much as long as it's a mutual deal.

[Boethius]

Sure, sex is fine.  But as much as you middle aged studs like to believe otherwise, in the absence of a currency exchange, (i.e. - if pursuing sex solely for pleasure), much younger women are far more interested in bedding hard bodied hunks with washboard abs, no wrinkles, and no grey hair.  

The point is, she wouldn't be spending time with him if she wasn't getting the presents.  He knows that, she knows it, so there is no need to quibble about the semantics.

[Gator]

To each his own.  It's not a moral judgment. 

But it seems that you are judging.  It is okay. Nevertheless, these are not puritan times. 

What do you want Azureroo to do?  He is in a divorce reound.  Should he date young sincere RW, show photos of his house, and state that he is interested in marriage?   More than likely he is not sure of what he wants and he would be building false hopes and wasting their time.

He could hide in a corner and pound his pud.

He could find a recently divorced Ozzie woman and do it like rabbits.

She's not a girlfriend....

 

You are correct in the sense that the Blue Kangaroo has no intention, at this point, for a longtime relationship leading to marriage.  He is recently divorced from a RW with a bad character.

She's a whore...

 

Disagree.  We don't know that she sleeps with anyone who shows up with money.

....and a stupid one, at that.

Maybe she is between sponsors and is looking for a new one, and is determining if Azureroo meets the criteria.  I agree that her future is not bright.  These type of women usually end up being passed from man to man until there is nothing to pass.

Would he be spending all that "quality time" with her, or taking her shopping, if there wasn't sex at the end of the evening?  Would she be spending this time with him if he weren't buying her "presents"?

You are correct.  So, what's the point?  This arrangement supposedly is a frequent practice in the FSU because of gender inequalities in income, etc.  Yes, there are many fine women who would never stoop to this level.

He could find a similar "girlfriend" in the US, but she would be pricier.

If you factor 1) travel costs and 2) downtime, the amount of money spent per "act" is probably more with RW.

But as much as you middle aged studs like to believe otherwise, in the absence of a currency exchange, (i.e. - if pursuing sex solely for pleasure), much younger women are far more interested in bedding hard bodied hunks with washboard abs, no wrinkles, and no grey hair. 

That's her choice.  Maybe she is doing both.  Maybe Azureroo is younger than her (but I will not take that wager).  Maybe she likes big ones and everyone knows that kangaroos have big ones.  Maybe...We don't know her eaxct motives.

[Boethius]

I think her motives are pretty clear, Gator.  No presents, no "quality time", no sex.  And she is a whore.  Her currency is just not cash.  I'm not judging the morality.  They're adults and can do as they please.  azureroo certainly recognizes this.

That's her choice.  Maybe she is doing both.  Maybe Azureroo is younger than her (but I will not take that wager).  Maybe she likes big ones and everyone knows that kangaroos have big ones.  Maybe...We don't know her eaxct motives.

azureroo said she is much younger.   The fact she always meets him on the street, is not affectionate in public, and, most importantly, asks for "presents" is evidence of what her intention is.  No rocket science there.

[Kuna]

I think Gator is right and I don't think it's so uncommon in FSU...  She's a sponsored girl.

Calling the girl a whore is inappropriate because we don't know everyting that's happening,  only the scant details here.  We also don't know if the motives behind the relatoinship will change,  which they may very well do.

It's not so uncommon in the west either.  The boss "pantsing" a subordinate at work often ends up with gift-buying and unemotional sex (apparently  ) and I've had situations where girls 20 yrs my junior just wanted to go to nice restaurants and not have to count their pennies when in clubs because boys their own age didn't have the income to support a gf, relatiosnhip or a night out in a club.  I know they wouldn't have been "dating me" if we weren't out partying!

Enjoy it for what it is... and don't be stingy, you don't want her to start getting headaches!  (joking)

[Gylden]

I agree with Boethius, if a girl goes out with a man/no sex and receives gifts and/or money, she is an escort. If a girl goes out with a man/with sex and receives gifts and/or money she is a prostitute. Whether he/she likes it/knows it or not.

Of course it is their own free choice.

[Jooky]

He could find a similar "girlfriend" in the US, but she would be pricier.

Of course. Much pricier!

Prosititution is legal in my state and even so I've heard men pay over $1000 for an evening of the 'girlfriend experience' with you hot young babe.

Whatever you call it, sounds like azureroo knows what he's dealing with and this girl is probably enoying it as well.

Some women might visually prefer those hardbodied washboard ab hunks (I don't recall seeing many of these in Russia though, I'm in better shape than most young Russki I see out in public in Novosibirsk and the gym I frequented was mostly women and me, no complaints there), but they can have just as much fun with us grey haired wrinkly old goats.

[IAmZon]

HMMM.  Where ought I begin?  Kuna good to see you.  Been a while.  Congrats on the babies.

Regarding this thorny topic, the first thing that out to be addressed is the AM perspective - which tends to be exceedingly narrow most of the time and framed with tons of value judgments that do not exist in other places.    The second thing, is just to remind those that have the capacity .... We are not God's gift to Beautiful, young, women; they are, I think God's gift to us.  I don't buy into the statement by Boethius that the most eligible ladies would not be with middle aged me without the promise of money / gifts - although generally speaking, he certainly is correct.   I am continually surprised by the opposite tendencies.

In the USA - as so often is the case; that could get ugly fast:)   The women that would likely fall into this category are very very damaged.  A recent story involves a man whose skull was crushed during a "massage".  That puts a whole new emphasis on "buyer beware".  In other places, there is not so much sexual repression and latent conservative orthodoxy in everything.   Although I am aware that often times women are abused and harmed, I do know that there are many situations where two parties engage in off field activities just for fun, or favors, or both - does not have to be very complicated.

And money.  Damn that stuff is funny.  Sometimes I spend a lot with a woman - in the US; Colombia; Argentina - and in the end I wonder if there was not a clear transaction taking place without a price tag.  But, then, I can meet the same woman again and spend next to nothing.  It is, more often than not, just being the man and coming from a much wealthier living condition for me.  But, yea ... very rarely do I have sex and not buy diner at least.  I don't know if that should even be a valid expectation, really.  It is what the male gender brings to the party.

Finally, I would say, providing you are not ridiculously "wife hunting" and holding out a Green Card as the woman's bonus prize ... relax and allow yourself to feel good about who you are.  In Venezuela there is a saying - No man is ugly as long as he is rich.  That is more true than less true in many of the countries we talk about here.   

Just don't be a goon.

[Voyager36]

Really?  If you don't mind sleeping with prostitutes, I suppose it's a win-win.  Just recognize that you are a john.

Hmm, or perhaps a sex-tourist. 

[Kuna]

Hmm, or perhaps a sex-tourist. 

If he hasn't used marriage sites or promises a foreign passport (which it sounds like they have a clear undersatanding of what they have) then I think it's just argumentative to suggest he is a sex-tourist.

Let's be honest,  casual sex and a few gifts is basically the standard mode of dating in the west now... It's certainly not uncommon in FSU from what I know.  He's not married, nor is she...  what's the problem?

[IAmZon]

when I see the term "sex tourist" here, it is often more than argumentative judgment; it has the same quality as yelling "witch" is Salem a couple hundred hears ago.  (and I know there has been some very repulsive examples for AM posing as suitors for only for the sake of intimacy).

Back in the archives, I believe Kuna made almost a final observation of age gaps and league gaps: he argued to apply your own "community standards" and what is normal becomes instantly clear.   The same is true for these dating arrangements.  And, when you take into consideration "community standards" in other countries for sponsorships, or GFE, etc... the term "sex tourists" becomes increasingly less fitting.

And, finally I offer the observation that emotions can lives can become intertwined in sponsorships just as in sincere courting for marriage.  ( I am not talking about flat transactional appointments that are paid for by the hour.  Or in relationships that are 100% insincere, or paid for).  Indeed, if you are honest, there is more in common with girlfriend experiences / pro dater and traditional courting for marriage than forums like this prefer to admit.

To add a little more dimension to this point - and I know I am not alone here - I have women in my heart who I think of often that I met "fair and square" and became involved with emotionally  ... these women (more than one ) also worked occasionally as dancers, escorts, or even had sponsors.  In all cases, there was complete honesty and volition.   There were also deep feelings and tears.  They were real women who were exceptional in many ways.  I maintained walls and boundaries because of the uncertainty involving these women's past behavior.   And I often think to myself: how was it that different than my won?  How did this behavior differ from any model or starlet in Hollywood or New York?  It must be a gross generalization that all these women must be "damaged goods."   Just things to think about.

[Gator]

Azureroo knows what he is doing.  He is having a great time during his summer in Ukraine while recovering from his divorce from a RW.


Whatever we think will not change Azureroo.  In fact, he cares not at all about judgmental opinions some readers may have.  What he does care about is helping less experienced RWD readers. 

His exact words regarding his Girl Friend Experience:

My concern is that others might get caught thinking they have a REAL relationship going on, and start supporting them afterwards.

He gives many signs to indicate that the RW loving you at night may be more commercial than romantic.  In other words, don't fall in love with the woman and send her money after you leave the FSU.

One red flag needs explanation for the newbie.  Azureroo wrote:

You then never see those clothes worn while you are there!

I have read of cooperative scams involving RW and store owner.  The RW “girlfriend” selects something expensive (e. g., gold bracelet).  Mr. Gullible buys it.  She wears it from the store.  After saying goodbye to Mr. Gullible, she goes back to the store, returns the bracelet, and splits the money 50-50 with the store owner.   

Azure’s red flag list is good, but missing something.  There should be red flags about the psychological condition of the man. 

-   Low self esteem,
-   Lonely, has not made “love” with such a beautiful woman in years and years,
-   Believing agency hype that there are more women than men and all a RW wants is a decent man (looks, age don’t matter),
-   Believing that money buys real love,
-   Feeling like a white knight,
-   Etc.

[BC]

  There should be red flags about the psychological condition of the man. 

-   Low self esteem,
-   Lonely, has not made “love” with such a beautiful woman in years and years,
-   Believing agency hype that there are more women than men and all a RW wants is a decent man (looks, age don’t matter),
-   Believing that money buys real love,
-   Feeling like a white knight,
-   Etc.

That's par for the course for seekers or?  Remember that 99.9% we don't see here.

[azureroo]

Wow, that created a bit of excitement!

Thanks Gator for the defense, but you are correct about my thoughts re judgement.
You correctly identified my concerns, and added a reasonable response.

To the other "gentleman";
Yes I am a tourist.
Yes I have had sex.
be very careful calling me a "sex tourist"!
That is not judgement, that is defamation

This experience of mine did not involve all of the red flags I wrote about though, it was just me putting down thoughts as someone "on the ground". This young lady is well aware of my situation, and I hers, and it might very well continue in it's current form, or alter in the future. We are currently having fun, neither expecting or offering marriage.
I have very good friends I am visiting on a holiday. That is the prime purpose of my visit.
Meeting someONE, could happen in any country, at anytime.
I have been hit up for gifts by western women, and often less politely, very early into a "relationship/holiday romance/marriage". She also accepts a NO, without a pout and withdrawl of affection......unlike most wives! lol

I have an experience to share about a particular sites honesty, and will post to another header for those who care.

[Chicagoguy]

Because of my age I dated older Russian women. And many of them indicated that they wanted sex for health reasons. Never heard that before in the U.S. but they were sincere in this. Also, many claimed that the Russian men who were slightly older either had wives or girlfriends so they were having trouble with this angle. Not as many available men.

And the most common complaint was that so many of these older guys couldn't get it up. Maybe this was due to their habits ?

So if both partners are happy then I don't see any problems.

[Gylden]

FWIW, you seem like one of the more sane ones here.