Novosibirsk Doesn't Believe in Tears: TwoBit's Sixteen Days In Novosibirsk

[Faux Pas]

To further Lily's point: this can apply to both men and women but more specifically women. When a man has a woman on his arm and notices more attention from other women it is all about the perception of the man. Not as much as the women suddenly finding him more attractive. The women can upon seeing the man already with a woman becomes more unguarded, open and friendly to the man sensing he is not on the prowl. The man instinctively feels his testosterone rise and his perception is the area women are coming on to him while the women see it in another entirely different light. More in terms of friendly, safe and uninterested

I have noticed the "feel" of being more attractive to women while I already have/had a woman but, Have always thought it perception and not reality.

Then there are always a certain circle of women who do in fact only wish to bed a married man. I've known many of these throughout the year also.

[tim 360]

To further Lily's point: this can apply to both men and women but more specifically women. When a man has a woman on his arm and notices more attention from other women it is all about the perception of the man. Not as much as the women suddenly finding him more attractive. The women can upon seeing the man already with a woman becomes more unguarded, open and friendly to the man sensing he is not on the prowl. The man instinctively feels his testosterone rise and his perception is the area women are coming on to him while the women see it in another entirely different light. More in terms of friendly, safe and uninterested

I have noticed the "feel" of being more attractive to women while I already have/had a woman but, Have always thought it perception and not reality.

Then there are always a certain circle of women who do in fact only wish to bed a married man. I've known many of these throughout the year also.

This I agree with and I agree that men definitely "imagine" many things.  But I have seen the opposite whereby a few days later the other women still do find this guy more interesting.  A few times I have been that guy.

Agree too about the ones who prefer a guy who's already married.  They're safer, I've been told.

[ML]

Lily, good analysis and presentation.  However, I still reject most of your conclusions.

Women do pay more attention to me when I am with another woman as opposed to being alone.

And I am not  in love with the woman I am with, so I am not projecting such an aura.  And I don't feel more confident when I am with a woman.
And I am not looking around more at other women when I am with a woman.

In short, I am neither doing nor feeling any of the things you attribute as reasons why I 'think' women pay more attention to me when I am with a woman as opposed to being alone.

[kievstar]

When I lived in Brazil many women were all over me.  I was told to hide my wedding ring and the number of women decreased.  I was told the fact that I was married meant I was able to commit to marriage and that other women felt I was desirable.

[Sculpto]

The thing is.. everyone is right on this one.. there isnt a wrong answer.. and that is exactly why it gets called "game" because you can approach the psychology and sociology from different angles and still arrive at the same destination.  It is the understanding of those angels that gives any individual an advantage regardless of what they think of the process.

[vwrw]

I 'think' women pay more attention to me when I am with a woman as opposed to being alone.

I had noticed myself giving attention to guys that were beside hot women, who would not get my glance have they (men) been alone. Therefore, I can believe that a guy with a hot woman beside him receives more attention.  However, attention does not equal attraction. Some of those guys that I saw with such women triggered repulsion or left me indifferent. Others were not that bad. My point is if woman looks at you, it does not mean she likes you. She may be wondering what the woman sees in you or she may be thinking that Shrek is more attractive than the guy who is with the hot woman. 

[Blues Fairy]

My point is if woman looks at you, it does not mean she likes you. She may be wondering what the woman sees in you or she may be thinking that Shrek is more attractive than the guy who is with the hot woman.

I thought Shrek was pretty cool.

[Jooky]

I thought Shrek was pretty cool.

So I do have a chance with the ladies! Too bad you're already taken. 

[Sculpto]

 

[Shostakovich]

That's why finding a quality woman used to be that important, at all times.

Nothing succeeds like success - so long as that is what you are interested in.  So long as you display the tokens that constitute a successful life there will be those who validate your life - hence the desire for success, getting others to ring your life around with some halo of congratulation.  Some have gone so far into the quest for validation that they've lost track of what makes a thing inherently interesting.  Here in downtown Seattle, we've got a lot of successful people: they have well equipped kitchens and do not cook, they have cars designed for autobahn use that sit in traffic, they have sexy girlfriends - and how is the sex?  Hmmn, I wonder.  In our social hierarchy we've got a lot of different types.  Some lucky devils want what they want just because they want it and more or less go their own way.  But success seeking types will always go the direction that they perceive to come from the group mind.  Thus, I have no doubt some ladies want a man because he is with a great lady.  Same goes for the guys.  It was shocking to me, when with my super-model girlfriend of yore, how many guys wanted to chat me up.  Some, of course were just hoping to move on in, but many just wanted to know me, to see what it takes to get that kind of girl.

Some girls go for the guy because of the girl he is with.  On the other hand some girls want the guy because of his inherent qualities, as Lilly explained.  Probably there are some other variations on the the theme as well.  A single behavior may have many causes.

[Ade]

SJ:  I believe you are a native English speaker, so I am puzzled.  You stated:

"Game playing" is for teenagers.

Have you not read this thread in its' entirety?  If you wish to make meaningful contributions, you should know what others have already said.  How could you possibly not understand his lengthy exposition on the word?  Your comment makes you seem intentionally obtuse.  His usage, execution and structure of explanation where excellent and obviously the opposite of your comment.  

Okay, I'll admit that I've skipped most pages - generally, I do find these trip reports to be tedious and, more often than not, it's the responses to the TRs that capture my attention. So, just for you, I'll go back and read the entire thread and get back to you.

[TwoBitBandit]

Out of all the stuff I wrote, I was surprised that the assertion “women are attracted to a man who already has a high-value woman” spawned such a sub-thread.  There some good counter arguments of the form “men who have a high-value woman tend to be high-value men, and are therefore attractive” and “men who have a high-value woman get confidence from having that woman.”  I still contend that all things being equal (i.e., controlling for those two criteria), women are more attracted to a guy with a high-value woman at his side.  I could write a few pages on my personal experiences with it and why I think it is, but it’s tangential to this trip report.  The topic has been pretty beat to death.

Granted there is nothing wrong with increasing your attractiveness as long as you do not pretend someone who you are not.  By pretending that you are not interested in a girl while you are interested in her, you exhibit a false identity. I agree obtaining affection by false pretense can be used to bed sluts in nightclubs.  However, being disingenuous when you are looking for a wife is doomed technique. You may be able to seduce high quality woman into marriage by usage of the method, but it is impossible and burdensome to maintain false pretense for 24/7, and once you are tired of doing that, your wife might start thinking about divorce on the basis of unmeet expectations.

I agree with VWRW's post. It is one thing to use "game" to get a one night stand. The challenge is the morning after, or the eventual transition to a long-term relationship. Sure, game may be good to get a first and second date, but how do you keep it going after that?

Some of you are grabbing at my usage of the word game without also accepting my definition of it (“game is the art of being attractive to women”).  I admit that if it is a controversial word, but if you quote my usage without also accepting my definition then you’re making a disingenuous counter-argument.

Your points of maintaining a false pretense are logical in isolation but they’re a straw-man counter-argument in this context.  If I adopt a behavior with the intent of keeping it forever, then it isn’t a disingenuous or a bad strategy.  If I adopt a high-value behavior and internalize it and make it part of my habit and belief system, then I really am a higher-value guy.  In fact, the more dating I do the more I believe that the way to find a great partner is to be a great man.  

Let me give you some examples: I’ve made an effort to dress better.  I started subscribing to fashion magazines (like GQ).  I started reading books about fashion, and about how to apply rules of looking sharp and under what circumstances fashion rules can be broken.  I learned about fabrics.  I started ordering most of my shirts, pants and suits made-to-measure.  I learned about good suits, and how to identify the construction of a good suit.  I started dragging some women I know and guys I know who understand clothes to the mall.  I’ve developed my own style.  Now, I get compliments from women on how I dress… just like I did with Anna last night.  But it’s not a short-term behavior.  I’ve internalized the behavior of dressing well and intend to maintain that behavior indefinitely.

I’ve started hitting the gym in the past three or four years.  I learned about the diet a lifter needs, about how to increase and monitor testosterone levels, about how to use good form while lifting, what kinds of exercises target which muscles, about rest and recovery time, etc.  I hired a personal trainer who used to be a professional body lifter.  I’ve gained a lot of muscle mass and I feel great.  I hit the gym four times a week and I hit it hard.  People I haven’t seen in years see me and the first thing they say is “dude, have you been going to the gym?”  I enjoy going to the gym, and I enjoy meeting my trainer.  And he likes me because I’m motivated.  I’ve internalized the behavior of being in good shape and intend to maintain that behavior indefinitely..

I was promoted to a manager where I work several years ago, and I manage a staff of ten software engineers.  I’ve learned tons about how to motivate people, how to negotiate with other managers and project leads, how to set schedules.  I’ve learned how to hire well.  I’ve learned how to use negative and positive reinforcement to get what I want.  I sought advice from more senior managers that I respected.  I read books about management.  I’ve learned about how to set a team strategy and prevent things from blowing up.  I’ve learned how to specify software projects so that expectations are clear and deliverables are met.  I’ve used the big stick when needed.  I understand leading men (all ten are men: it’s Silicon Valley after all) better.  Every year my company does a survey, and my staff ranks me a little bit better every year.   I’ve internalized the behavior of being a better manager and intend to maintain that behavior indefinitely.

I decided that I wanted a higher quality of woman in my life.  I started to read books about male and female psychology.  I read books about evolutionary biology, and about how a lot of the behaviors of men and women are product of successful and unsuccessful mating strategies of our ancestors.  I started reading books on picking up women and about how to read them, evaluate their behavior, handle their responses.  I learned about how they judge men.  I sought out the advice of men who were good with women.  And most importantly, I started dating a lot and trying out new behaviors and tracked what worked and what didn’t work.  I’ve internalized the behavior of being more attractive to women and intend to maintain that behavior indefinitely.

When I talk about the first three cases (dressing, weights, managing) people always pat me on the back and congratulate me on my improved behavior.  They recognize that I’ve dropped my old frame and its associated belief system that was no longer desirable.  But, if I start talking about the fourth case (attracting women) people get all squishy.  Why is that?  The advice “be yourself” is great advice if you’re (a) a woman (for reasons I explained earlier in this thread) or (b) you’re satisfied with the women that the “yourself” is attracting.  But I wasn’t satisfied with who I was attracting, so I changed my frame.  I dropped my old frame and adopted a set of higher-value behaviors and beliefs.  And I adopt those changes permanently and internalize them in my beliefs and behaviors, then I really become and am that person.  The trick to getting a high-value mate isn’t to find the high-value mate.  The trick is to be a high-value mate.

SJ and others.. try not to get the message and the nomenclature mixed up.  I agree the word "game" or "gaming" can be offensive.  Some of the hardcore practitioners are in fact quite offensive people.   However, when adjusted for sociological and personal empowerment by an individual with honorable intentions the knowledge is invaluable.  I say that simply because people are people and those who understand how people tick as well as understanding their own ways of interacting are ore likely to get positive results from their interactions.

Exactly.

TwoBitBandit, if you are a leader, you do not need to play games for everyone to see that. Only if you are not a leader, you need to fake frame it.

Well, obviously, if I am a leader I need to have the frame “I am a leader,” regardless of whether I have always been a leader or have just started leading.  That doesn’t make it “fake.”

Is romancing analogous with selling?  Those of you who have succeeded in business sales know the steps:
1.   Prospecting.
2.   Meeting and greeting.
3.   Understanding your buyer (needs, how they make decisions, criteria they use, …).
4.   Presenting your product (packaging it as a “concept” rather than “brand”).
5.   Closing.
6.   Filling the need.

Some “game” goes in all steps, yet the “game” discussed in this thread by those who claim to have “game” is focused on Step 2:  stirring interest after meeting a prospective buyer.  

The same as in selling, Steps 3, 4 and 5 are far more important than Step 2.  Step 3 requires more than communication skills, it takes empathy as well as separation.

Some "game" goes in Step 4 by presenting yourself as a unique 'concept' rather than one of many 'brands.'  Step 4 is interesting because you are selling yourself.  You can not turn the sell over to the Engineering Department; you must deliver yourself and meet all of her expectations.    

What about the part where after a successful closure, a good salesman will awaken next morning and look for another buyer?      

Gator, thanks for this balanced response.  I believe that understanding women is crucial in all these steps.  In my trip report I’m in steps two to four.  So, I can see why some posters here are advancing the straw-man argument “TwoBit is adopting a set of manipulative behaviors to get past steps two to four, and it’s manipulate because those behaviors don’t apply in step six.”  

I don’t agree with that argument because adopting and internalizing high-value behaviors are always useful.  The same behaviors, skills and knowledge that are useful for seducing a woman in step three are just as useful as keeping her attracted in the long term (marriage) in step six.

There’s a controversial blog on the topic of handling women written by a guy who goes by the handle “Roissy.”  I’d like to put aside the content of most of his blog and direct your attention at this particular post about a man named Dave in Hawaii who used “game” to save his marriage.  http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/08/14/relationship-game-week-a-readers-journey/  He had adopted a set of weak behaviors that was causing his wife to lose interest in him.  He started to read about game and adopt a set of behaviors that made him more attractive to women.  It saved his marriage.  Being attractive to women can be used in lots of ways: it can be used to seduce and bed lots of women, or it can be used to continually seduce an individual woman and have a great relationship with her.

Pretty simple Misha, you keep gaming her. Many relationships fail because the man gets too comfortable and or lazy in the relationship. They quit gaming or dating their spouse.

Reading your posts I think you are still gaming your wife but you dont recongnize it in those words. Its why you have a good relationship.

I laugh my butt off the way the word "gaming" causes some men to curl up in a ball.

+1 SMS60

Hey bud, you are about to lose control of the frame unless you step it up. You are approaching a critical point. You know the saying of...... "who ever needs the other the least has the power"......... You are falling for her and must decide weather to continue to meet other women or give Anna the rest of the week. You know you are taking a chance of losing her interest if she senses you are still meeting other women after opening up to you? If you can keep her interest level high you might be able to continue to meet other women and still see her. How are you going to do this?

She felt a connection by revealing some of her personal thoughts. You could easily deflate her if your not careful. Some women dont mind if you date other women in the early stages but if they feel something after a couple of dates and you slap them in the face by going out on a date with someone else they will eject in a hurry. Don't lead her on.

You’re dead on with this post, and I appreciate your insight.  All your points are wholly valid.  In fact, it’s at this point on prior trips that I’ve dropped the ball.

I’ve had it go both ways on prior trips.

I’ve offended a high-value girl and lost her by continuing to chase other girls.  I made this mistake a lot on my earlier trips.  (The so-called “kid in the candy store” mistake that gets mentioned on these boards from time to time.)  I remember one day in particular that I had dated a cute physician in Volgograd a few times.  I was about to see her off for the night, and she said, “Christian, it’s been so interesting to spend time with you and I’m looking forward to see you again.”  She was a high-value woman and she was into me.  I continued to chase other girls and she was gone.  It was a colossal mistake on my part.

On my last trip to Nizhny Novgorod last year, I lost the interest of a high-value girl by indicating too much interest in her before she was sold.

Honestly, I’d chase only Anna at this point if I could make it work out.  But I’ve dated enough to know that if you advance this position at the wrong time you can kill her attraction.  There’s a right time to have “alpha behavior” (I’m awesome and you’re just one of many women I could catch) and a right time to have “beta behavior” (Please come and join me in my life).

The right progression is to adopt the alpha frame and then the beta frame.  (Alpha then beta, couldn’t be greater.  Beta then alpha, you’ll be eating alfalfa.)

My mistake in the far distant past dating American girls was to move to the beta frame way too quickly.  In the FSU, it’s much easier to stay in the alpha frame longer because of the “kid in the candy store syndrome,”  But the real trick in both cases is to get past your own feelings and make the transition at the right time by sizing up the woman, her interest level and her behavior.  If you adopt the beta frame too early then you’ll scare her off, if you adopt it too late you’ll lose her attraction.

I agree that I’m in risk of losing control of the frame, because I’ve been at this place before and I have lost control of the frame in similar circumstances.  I’m always open to constructive advice on how to handle it.

One other thing. Why are you worried about someone labeling you a sex tourist? Hell, I dont see anything close to approaching sex in your meetings.

Because some posters on these boards are idiots.  There was another trip report by a guy named av8tor.  He wrote a trip report on this board http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=8953.0 I met the guy in person in Tver and talked to him on the phone a little bit.  Like all of us, he has his strong points and his weak points.  In this thread some accusations were thrown his way which were wholly unwarranted, crude and uncivilized.

[Aloe]

There’s a controversial blog on the topic of handling women written by a guy who goes by the handle “Roissy.”  I’d like to put aside the content of most of his blog and direct your attention at this particular post about a man named Dave in Hawaii who used “game” to save his marriage.  http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/08/14/relationship-game-week-a-readers-journey/  He had adopted a set of weak behaviors that was causing his wife to lose interest in him.  He started to read about game and adopt a set of behaviors that made him more attractive to women.  It saved his marriage.  Being attractive to women can be used in lots of ways: it can be used to seduce and bed lots of women, or it can be used to continually seduce an individual woman and have a great relationship with her.

I read that post, and i think one of the comments summed it up nicely:

I see Game as a conscious effort and the stuff Dave describes is really just a personality change. He isn’t using pick-up games, he’s just telling her the damn truth and not acquiescing to her bull*snip*.

When a beautiful woman flirts with him, he tells the damn truth. That’s not Game, it’s having balls. When she bitches and moans about some trivial mistake he made, he tells her to stop bitching and moaning about the trivial mistake he made.

What he’s doing isn’t some process that takes years to master. I think that constantly trying to be an alpha male would be quite exhausting for a beta. But to act like Dave does, to stand up for yourself and not be a little bitch, that’s rather easy. It’s about asserting yourself and not taking her *snip*.

That doesn't sound like what you describe, ie not answering their calls until a certain time has passed and other games.

Also, readin the comments on that page like:

my problem with all this is,

that’s very nice as long as you don’t actually cheat on her.
But i can’t get myself to be loyal for more than 1 year.
I do handle *snip* tests well, but after some time they know I’m chasing other women.

and

Dave from Hawaii needs to game and *snip* chicks other than his wife. *snip*ing different vagina makes a man radiate a testosterone/alpha glow that simply “gaming” one’s wife does not. Dave’s wife will love him more for it and her ‘gina will tingle.

and

Years into my marriage, I just came out and told my wife that I’d be porking other chicks on occasion. It turns out that she had assumed I had already been doing so. She’s not exactly in love with the idea, but she knows I’m gonna do it anyhow, and is only afraid that I’ll actually fall in love with another (younger) woman. The brutal honesty makes the marriage stronger, and the sex hotter.

and the reply to that, somebody else posted:

how many years?
I guess its different when you’re actually married, i.e. you ain’t gonna dump her easily. But in a normal LTR they just freak out. I got one actually attempting suicide.
I just slapped the *snip* out of her and *snip*ed the other girl anyway though. She eventually stopped asking after that.

And other comments like that.
Nice crowd to learn from eh  

I do agree Dave needed to get some balls, but that has nothing to do with getting "game" and what not

[Aloe]

another star comment:

“Years into my marriage, I just came out and told my wife that I’d be porking other chicks on occasion. It turns out that she had assumed I had already been doing so. She’s not exactly in love with the idea, but she knows I’m gonna do it anyhow, and is only afraid that I’ll actually fall in love with another (younger) woman. The brutal honesty makes the marriage stronger, and the sex hotter.”

BIG mistake.

Any woman who’s in love with you already assumes you *snip* other chicks. Rubbing their face in it is bad taste & implies you don’t understand how women operate.

Women universally operate on the “don’t ask don’t tell / please lie to me / tell me anything remotely plausible as long as it feels good” principle.

wow that place is full of geniuses lol

[Aloe]

I literally feel like i took a dive in a pool of shit after reading the comments to that post about dave. The post itself is good and shows that you need to have some balls, but the comments are so repulsive, it's awful somebody would wanna associate, or god forbid learn anything from people who think like that (like in the comments i quoted, that are very common there apparently)

[Ade]

I'm jumping into this quite late so I guess a lot of what I say here will be redundant as I reply to the posts chronologically but never mind...

Later, both girls send me SMS messages saying they enjoyed being with me and want to see me again.  I don’t reply to either one: it’s good to keep them guessing a little.

Seriously? You think that keeping them "guessing" is a good idea?

On the topic of SMS messages: I'll respond to them tomorrow.  Part of dealing with women is keeping control of the frame.  You need to express the frame "I'm the great catch, and I'm of higher market value then you."  But it has to be subtle.  If you always do the perfectly polite thing, you're expressing "please, please, I'll do anything for a sliver of your attention" which is a "your value is higher than mine" frame.  As soon as you get in that frame, women will pick up on it and walk all over you.  Doing the polite thing isn't always the right thing to do.

And here's your answer to that then. Hm, well, it certainly seems like game playing to me. Also, by your implication, an attempt at engineering dominance over someone else.  A bit silly and unnecessary. If you meet a compatible partner, there's no need of these extraneous machinations, in fact, I'd go as far as to say that in a worse case scenario, you'll end up with someone totally incompatible and heading for a train wreck.

Some women may attempt to walk over you if you let them but, 1) you don't have to let them regardless of who thinks they "control the framing" and 2) who wants to be with a woman like that anyway?

It was kind of surprising.  It was pleasant enough to spend time with her and the conversation was interesting, but she seemed not to be that attracted to me.  I didn't pick up any of the signs I normally look for like flirtatious eye contact, playing with her hair and various objects, downward-looking/submissive eyes, licking her lips, touching me, brushing my hand, etc.  Did I misread the situation, and she's attracted but just not "flamboyantly flirtatious"?  Is she just bored this week and fishing for a date just for something to do?  Or is she stringing me along just for amusement?  Or maybe she's just got that "New York Female Lawyer" sort of agro attitude toward dating?

It's one of the challenges to dating in another culture.  Even though I've spent a fair amount of time in the FSU, the girls here are sometimes a little more difficult to read than ones in my own culture.

What do y'all think?

Here's a guess; she knew or at least suspected that she was one of many and was reserved on your date because of that. Women of quality are rarely going to throw themselves at you if they know you are doing a VM. I see Dave picked up on that one too.

I was gifted with an IQ of 141
...
It was then that it dawned on me that everyone's mind didn't work like mine.
...

Your IQ is similar to mine (@sd16). My language skills are atrocious, the reason for which I put down to the slight dyslexia I inherited from my father. From my experience, language skills and intelligence aren't related; I know many people of exceptional intelligence that have awful language skills, even in their native tongues and I know others that are of average intelligence that have quite phenomenal language abilities - one extreme example is a tea lady I used to know at a previous employer that was fluent in 4 languages or so and had a working knowledge in several others.

It's not a given that those with above average IQ's "think differently" although, from my experience, it's more likely that some will and it becomes more likely the more stratospheric an IQ becomes. A common manifestation I've found with those of a higher IQ is a tendency to over analyse situations which seems to be evident with you and another "disability" that seems more common, or at least more pronounced, is that high IQers tend to be quite awkward socially and have poorer soft skills.

But FWIW, I'm one of those that thinks IQ is not a particularly good metric for judging someone's true intelligence; it's an indicator yes, but not necessarily an accurate one taken in isolation.

About halfway through the meal Lena asks if she can smoke.  I play it cool and say it’s no problem, but I’m surprised.  For me, smoking is a showstopper.  I kept careful notes to make sure I either asked each girl if she smokes or make sure she said that on her profile.  I’m not sure how I missed this one.  I resolve to go figure it out: did I miss a detail or did she lie?  She subsequently smoked a second cigarette.  (I later looked at her profile and it clearly states that she doesn't smoke, so she lied on her profile.)

So she lied and so did you. Seriously, if it was such a "show stopper", you should have just said there and then that it's not okay and if she wanted to smoke she'd have to find someone else. To do anything else is disingenuous at best.

Disclaimer: please please do not take it personally, I do not really know you and I do not try to tell you what you should or should not do. These are my thoughts based on a couple of your posts and I would like to have a discussion.

You are not really "dating", you are meeting women to establish if you can have a relationship with them or not. "Game" is good for getting dates and getting laid, that's why it is so popular with 20 years old. Are you chasing 20 years old? "Game" means high amount of drama for both parts involved, do you have time for a drama? "Game" is good fun when you have time for it but does it help you to understand who is a high caliber or who is a good mate for you?

These girls want to marry an American (you), they should have an idea of what you look like and who you are already, do you really need to postpone SMS response to keep them interested? They generally are already praying that you are nice and not some kind of weirdo, so they can like you....

After reading more of TBB's posts, I agree with Ranetka's assessment even more. Those that put on a show to manipulate a woman that may otherwise be disinterested ("game"  ) are playing with fire; be careful what you wish for.

The choice of the word “game” for this isn’t really a great choice since it implies disingenuous manipulation.  I’m honestly looking for a woman to marry and be the mother of my children.  So I don’t believe that trying to generate attraction among them is disingenuous.

Of course it is disingenuous manipulation if you consciously act in a way you wouldn't naturally act in order to attract someone that wouldn't usually be attracted to you. It's a pretence and you are putting forth a persona to be evaluated by someone else that really isn't you. Taken to its extreme, it can quite possibly lead to relationships with extremely disjointed expectations and train wrecks.

Granted there is nothing wrong with increasing your attractiveness as long as you do not pretend someone who you are not.  By pretending that you are not interested in a girl while you are interested in her, you exhibit a false identity. I agree obtaining affection by false pretense can be used to bed sluts in nightclubs.  However, being disingenuous when you are looking for a wife is doomed technique. You may be able to seduce high quality woman into marriage by usage of the method, but it is impossible and burdensome to maintain false pretense for 24/7, and once you are tired of doing that, your wife might start thinking about divorce on the basis of unmeet expectations. 

TwoBitBandit, if you are a leader, you do not need to play games for everyone to see that. Only if you are not a leader, you need to fake frame it.

I can only voice my agreement for this yet again.

"Game playing" is for teenagers. He should be himself, be open, straightforward and honest.

From what I've read so far, I have to agree with myself. There's no substitute for being totally oneself.

She has to take the bus home and the last run is coming up, so we get the check and leave.  I escort her down to the metro station.  She takes my hand and holds onto it the whole way, but still won’t let me kiss her. 

I ask her to meet me tomorrow.  She waffles a little bit and says she'll tell me tomorrow.  "Before noon" I reply.  She agrees.  She gives me a hug and we part.

Maybe I will be surprised in a later post but really, at this stage, the vast majority of women I know and know of would have at least given you a goodbye kiss if they were into you.

SJ and others.. try not to get the message and the nomenclature mixed up.  I agree the word "game" or "gaming" can be offensive.  Some of the hardcore practitioners are in fact quite offensive people. 

However, when adjusted for sociological and personal empowerment by an individual with honorable intentions the knowledge is invaluable.  I say that simply because people are people and those who understand how people tick as well as understanding their own ways of interacting are ore likely to get positive results from their interactions.

"Honourable" intentions or not, as it's described here, TBB's "game" amounts to a mix of deliberate slight of hand to elicit a more favourable response than he'd otherwise get by being himself (or so he thinks), and teenage silliness such as not messaging the girls back immediately. 

J:  I believe you are a native English speaker, so I am puzzled.  You stated:

"Game playing" is for teenagers.

Have you not read this thread in its' entirety?  If you wish to make meaningful contributions, you should know what others have already said.  How could you possibly not understand his lengthy exposition on the word?  Your comment makes you seem intentionally obtuse.  His usage, execution and structure of explanation where excellent and obviously the opposite of your comment. 

Here's sound bite for you; boys, playing at being men. 

Gator, thanks for this balanced response.  I believe that understanding women is crucial in all these steps.  In my trip report I’m in steps two to four.  So, I can see why some posters here are advancing the straw-man argument “TwoBit is adopting a set of manipulative behaviors to get past steps two to four, and it’s manipulate because those behaviors don’t apply in step six.” 

I don’t agree with that argument because adopting and internalizing high-value behaviors are always useful.  The same behaviors, skills and knowledge that are useful for seducing a woman in step three are just as useful as keeping her attracted in the long term (marriage) in step six.

Perhaps it's because some doubt that it's possible for a grown man in his late thirties to really change fundamental behavioural characteristics. Some of us may even think it's a little sad that you feel the need to. Sure, I can understand wanting to change and improve some behaviours if you have some flaws that are inherently abhorrent to the opposite sex but dude, trying to change what you are to get laid by what you consider to be a "high value" woman doesn't speak highly of your self esteem or self value.

In summary, I'd say you're trying too hard, you lack self confidence not only to be yourself but to just come out and be honest (the sneaking around on a VM and not being open about it, the smoking thing, the delayed messages to list the obvious).

The truth is, when you've met someone that's compatible with who you really are you will know it and so will she; on the other hand trying to consciously engineer yourself into something you think is going to be attractive to your idea of an ideal is IMO, a recipe for disaster.

[vwrw]

The advice “be yourself” is great advice if you’re (a) a woman (for reasons I explained earlier in this thread) or (b) you’re satisfied with the women that the “yourself” is attracting.  But I wasn’t satisfied with who I was attracting, so I changed my frame.  I dropped my old frame and adopted a set of higher-value behaviors and beliefs.  And I adopt those changes permanently and internalize them in my beliefs and behaviors, then I really become and am that person.  The trick to getting a high-value mate isn’t to find the high-value mate.  The trick is to be a high-value mate.

This quote compelled me to look at your aims from absolutely different perspective.

Okay TwoBitBandit, your post #136 won me on your side. I strongly believe that a persistent person can learn whatever she or he wishes to have mastered. According to studies from my management textbook, it is learnable to be even a charismatic and/or visionary leader; needless to say you can learn techniques how to be usual leader.  I saw that people can learn to be sophisticated, provided reading about art and history-related things do not make them asleep. Social skills can be mastered too.  Moreover, practicing a new technique is the best way to master it, and if you practice a technique for a long time, it becomes your habitual behavior. Your aspiration to improve yourself is commendable. I wish you all the best!

[Lily]

  If I adopt a behavior with the intent of keeping it forever, then it isn’t a disingenuous or a bad strategy.  If I adopt a high-value behavior and internalize it and make it part of my habit and belief system, then I really am a higher-value guy.  In fact, the more dating I do the more I believe that the way to find a great partner is to be a great man.  
 

TBB, I applaud your post in standing   This is the mindset and behavior that I used to admire. All my life I have been striving to fill my life with people like yourself.

   The advice “be yourself” is great advice if you’re (a) a woman (for reasons I explained earlier in this thread) or (b) you’re satisfied with the women that the “yourself” is attracting.  But I wasn’t satisfied with who I was attracting, so I changed my frame.
 

Not quite agree that if I am a woman, I should not try to increase my own qualities, both inner and especially outer   like you explained in your post # 136. Sorry that I have not specifically looked for the reasons that you refer to, it is just soo interesting to read you that I am too lazy to scroll up the whole thread to look for these reasons
 
 

[TwoBitBandit]

I literally feel like i took a dive in a pool of *snip* after reading the comments to that post about dave. The post itself is good and shows that you need to have some balls, but the comments are so repulsive, it's awful somebody would wanna associate, or god forbid learn anything from people who think like that (like in the comments i quoted, that are very common there apparently)

I agree that many of the comments on that site are inappropriate.  My point was the look at the content of the original post and ignore the comments.

I wholly understand "Dave in Hawaii's" situation, because I've experienced exact the same thing in long-term relationships.  No matter what you say, you can't figure out how to get the woman in your life to stop bitching at you.  If you don't do what she wants, she's argumentative.  If you do what she wants, she's argumentative.  If you do nothing, she's argumentative.  The solution to Dave's problem was to change the frame: he became much more of an аsshole that he ever wanted to be.  If you read the context of his early arguments, he's just trying to be a nice guy and fix the source of her complaints.  It wasn't until he started reading about game and realizing that what women really want is alpha behavior.

My definition of game is "is the art of generating attraction in women," which is what Dave is doing.  Whether you "frame" it as being manipulative, or being an аsshole, being an alpha, "having balls" or being a real man, he was clearly successful at game by my definition.  He dropped his old frame of "I am a nice guy" and adopted a new belief system.

You may claim that my situation is different than Dave's: that by not responding to SMS messages, I'm just being manipulative for no good reason, and Dave is just stepping up the plate an bring a real man.  If that's your frame, then probably nothing I can say will change it.  But, as I kicked up my game in the past few years and dated more women and higher-value women, I can attest that these tricks work.  Being a little bit mysterious, unpredictable and cocky is effective.  And, I concede that by some definitions that makes me an аsshole.

You may make the argument that I'm not doing the same thing as Dave.  But look at what he writes:

HER: “I’m hungry”

ME: “So am I. Let’s go.”

HER: “Go where?”

ME: “You’ll see.”

HER: “C’mon, tell me…”

ME {Rolling my eyes and turning away from her, getting ready to head out with or without her.}: “Are you gonna sit here and play twenty questions like a spoiled little princess or are you gonna come along and eat with me?”

HER {Now she starts getting ready to go.}: “C’mon…why don’t you tell me…”

At that point, I could take her to a fine-dining restaurant or McDonalds, it doesn’t matter.

Women love drama (in the right amount, of course).  If I don't respond to their SMS messages right away, I'm creating drama in a small way.  They're thinking, "why doesn't that guy respond?  What happened to him?"  It's fundamentally the same thing Dave is doing when he won't tell his wife where they're going for dinner.  He's being mysterious and unpredictable.  I'm not in the frame of "I'm just a toy here to respond to your SMS messages right away" and Dave isn't in the frame of "I'm just here to answer all your silly questions."

Women may say that they value straightforwardness, but the more I time I spend with them I realize that they aren't telling the whole story.  They don't want the "nice guy" trying to be more attractive to women to be more straightforward.  They want the alpha male that they dream of catching to be more straightforward to that they're more able to catch him.  The "nice guy" (who is sexually invisible to them) needs to become more aloof, cocky and unpredictable.

And here's a post that I REALLY get: http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/lax/483318927.html

[Gtex]

SJ: A sound bite for you...

You admit responding without having read the previous posts.  It was obvious you had not read the OPs' replies.  

Thanks for reading and responding, though your insights are; well, largely irrelevant (imho).  Instead of making any reasonable effort to understand, you make a long post in defense of previously poorly prepared statements rather than gleaning enlightenment.  

Your reply is revealing.  I am reminded of a person who, when asked for an opinion on a recent event said, "I have not read anything about it, but I have strong opinions on it..."

Your problem was not just not reading, but worse, failing to comprehend.  If all you can do is defend your previous refuted position, you are not listening (for example, as vwrw is and changing thought).  

I will not waste the point by point effort to illuminate the many shortcomings (logically) of your response other than to point out one example.  

You said to confront the woman about smoking, did you miss his complete reply covering from politeness to wave effect in the community?  The attitude you ascribe I consider to be the "truth attack/defense" applied in a most churlish manner, not to mention counterproductive.   You should not tell a needless truth whose only mention is to damage or discomfort another (and ultimately ourselves).  This concept is called civility and is often used to great profit in dating.  

Also you said: "I have to agree with myself. There's no substitute for being totally oneself."  In case you missed this:  It is also possible to change and improve "oneself."  Which for the purposes intended and the outcome presumed, is exactly what TBB is attempting.  Your comments reflect the attitude that "People must take me as I am..."  Just remember, if you are a jerk, that is what people will "take you to be..."

Perhaps, your screen name is part of the problem.  Perhaps you are seriously jaded.  Or, perhaps you are just challenged by some of the personal developmental and attitude problems you allude to.   You have found someone right for you, I applaud your good fortune and hope it continues.

Your comments here though are mainly defensive, so why not just wait until you have something valuable to contribute that can add to the discussion.

Lastly, your comment: "boys, playing at being men."  OK, you asked for it!

In the Kingdom of the Blind the one eyed man is King (though truth be told, his vision is imperfect). The internet is a similar place where: "The pen is mighty..."  and it is often the provence of cowards as there is "...[no] sword."  Such statements as: "playing at being men," really do not add much.  And that particular insult seems the major point of your comments.  It sounds so superior, are you really?

[Blues Fairy]

Being a little bit mysterious, unpredictable and cocky is effective.  And, I concede that by some definitions that makes me an аsshole.
I'm not in the frame of "I'm just a toy here to respond to your SMS messages right away".
They want the alpha male that they dream of catching to be more straightforward to that they're more able to catch him.  The "nice guy" (who is sexually invisible to them) needs to become more aloof, cocky and unpredictable.

If that's the sort of women you're chasing (silly chicks who fall for tricksy unpredictable "bad guys"), that's exactly what you're gonna get.  Is that how you define a high-value woman, the one who likes drama and takes a lot of shit from you?  Bonne route my friend. 

Just remember that while women might take some shit from you during the dating phase, your continued "frame" of being a bit of a jerk will render you quite unmarketable as a prospective husband - to a really high-value woman, that is. 

[SMS60]

I agree that I’m in risk of losing control of the frame, because I’ve been at this place before and I have lost control of the frame in similar circumstances.  I’m always open to constructive advice on how to handle it.

First off, dating locally compared to 5000 miles away affects the dynamics you are talking about. Really its apples and oranges. Dating close to home you have way more of the so called "control" of the interactions. It is easier to casual date locally and keep a "favorite" in the loop while still dating others. Your at home and you have time. You dont have this benefit on a 16 day visit while in a foreign country. Also most women you meet have the 'unspoken thought" of a LTR  if there is a connection. Close to home its just labeled casual dating with very few thoughts of LTR unless the sparks fly after a several dates.

To be able to control the frame 5000 miles away you must know what you want. So this is about what you want at this time in your life. It has nothing to do about keeping the women interested right now. With your attitude, this will come natrurally with the women. No need to worry about it.

You must decide if your ready to leave the candy store with your "favorite" candy. Are you ready to take a chance? If you dont feel your ready keep dating but dont look back and think of the one that got away.

I think for you to travel 5000 miles to date tells me you want to pull the trigger but is a little gun shy at the moment. You want to start a relationship with one of these attractive women but is very hesitant. You must do some deep searching within.

[Misha]

Pretty simple Misha, you keep gaming her. Many relationships fail because the man gets too comfortable and or lazy in the relationship. They quit gaming or dating their spouse.

Reading your posts I think you are still gaming your wife but you dont recongnize it in those words. Its why you have a good relationship.

Depends what you mean by "gaming" I guess. If you mean by "gaming" paying attention to your wife, really listening to what she says, then yes, "gaming" is essential to a marriage. However, I am pretty much me and just me with my wife, who for some reason that I don't quite fully understand to this day, loves that me 

[ML]

I had noticed myself giving attention to guys that were beside hot women, who would not get my glance have they (men) been alone. Therefore, I can believe that a guy with a hot woman beside him receives more attention.  However, attention does not equal attraction. Some of those guys that I saw with such women triggered repulsion or left me indifferent. Others were not that bad. My point is if woman looks at you, it does not mean she likes you. She may be wondering what the woman sees in you or she may be thinking that Shrek is more attractive than the guy who is with the hot woman.

As with Lily's ideas and reasoning, I reject your ideas and reasoning also.

The women who give me attention when I am with another woman, are giving attention in a manner that clearly shows they are attracted to me.  It is easy for anyone to tell this from the eye contact that is made and the smiles that are given.  In one case, the woman I was with even suggested that we change seats because the (unknown) woman beside me kept smiling at me so much that it made my date unhappy.

This NEVER happens when I am alone.

[vwrw]

It is easy to be a victim of wishful thinking and see what you want to see. To tell whether  a woman is attracted to you or not from the eye contact and smiles is NOT easy.