Novosibirsk Doesn't Believe in Tears: TwoBit's Sixteen Days In Novosibirsk

[TwoBitBandit]

It is easy to be a victim of wishful thinking and see what you want to see. To tell whether  a woman is attracted to you or not from the eye contact and smiles is NOT easy.

It gets easier with more practice.  Things to look for:
1.  When she breaks eye contact, do her eyes break to the side or down?  (down is submissive)
2.  Playing with hair, jewelry
3.  Fiddling with objects.
4.  Touching hands to face or ears.
5.  Mirroring body language (if you make a gesture, does she make the same gesture)
6.  If you're sitting to her side and she has her legs crossed, does her top knee point toward you or away from you.
7.  Are her arms uncrossed.
8.  Do her pupils look dilated or are her eyes moist.
9.  Does she ask you if you're seeing other girls?
10.  Does she laugh or giggle?
11.  Does she touch you? (especially if it is more than once)
12.  Does she ever smile?
13.  Does she laugh at your jokes?
14.  Does she stand close?
15.  Does she brush against you as you're walking or moving around?
16.  Does she compliment you?
17.  Does she say anything challenging to provoke a response?
18.  Does her leg touch you while you're sitting next to her?
19.  Does she lean in while seated to hear you?
20.  Does she ask what you're doing next after the date?
21.  If you move into her space, does she move away to recreate the space or does she allow the new distance?
22.  She doesn't resist if you touch her.
23.  If you stop talking, does she try to restart the conversation.

Any one of these don't really say much.  You have to look for groups of signs together.

[SFandEE]

I usually get the come hither look and a melting look in the eyes when I am kissing her.

[kievstar]

TwoBitBandit, is correct on the above list.  I actually have been trained for years to behave a certain way during negotiations to throw people off. 

I also have met some RW in Kiev who know all about theses signs and use it to their advantage.  For the average girl this works but the real educated beauties know this gamemanship and easily turn it to their advantage. 

[TwoBitBandit]

If that's the sort of women you're chasing (silly chicks who fall for tricksy unpredictable "bad guys"), that's exactly what you're gonna get.  Is that how you define a high-value woman, the one who likes drama and takes a lot of *snip* from you?  Bonne route my friend. 

Just remember that while women might take some *snip* from you during the dating phase, your continued "frame" of being a bit of a jerk will render you quite unmarketable as a prospective husband - to a really high-value woman, that is. 

I both agree and disagree.

As I've gotten better at handling women, I've experienced relationships where I'm totally in control of the relationship's frame.

Earlier in my life, I strived to impress girls.  Even if you're subtle, women have incredible intuition and pick up on in.  They can sense the neediness from a mile away.  By experiencing relationships where I was both in control of the frame and not in control of the frame, I realized something: the key to dating is flipping the script.  The trick to catching a woman isn't to impress her.  The trick is to demonstrate such high value that she wants to impress you.

High-value women get propositioned all the time.  If you want to pursue a high-value women, you have to be different from the twelve other guys that approached her that week (or that day) to get her intrigued.  And one of the ways to do this is to have the frame "I am a man of high value, and I can catch lots of girls.  Why should I catch you?"  Of course, you must also be congruent with that frame, it can't be some abstract idea in your head.  Your actions, your mannerisms, your confidence need to reflect that.

The reason for that is the hypergamous nature of women.  (hypergamous means that she wants one single strong man in her life)  Women evolved this way through evolution because the cost of bearing and raising a child is so high.

Of course, if you're chasing a high-value woman and start to form a more serious relationship, she'll eventually dump you if you continue to play stupid games like not returning calls.  But in the beginning, these games can generate intrigue.  The separate you from her other twenty orbiters that suck up to her.  In the later stages of a relationship, being a high-value guy takes a much different and more "substantial" form than phone games.  (Like solving real-world problems with confidence and being a strong and consistent leader.)

[Blues Fairy]

If you want to pursue a high-value women, you have to be different from the twelve other guys that approached her that week (or that day) to get her intrigued.  And one of the ways to do this is to have the frame "I am a man of high value, and I can catch lots of girls.  Why should I catch you?"  
In the beginning, these games can generate intrigue.  The separate you from her other twenty orbiters that suck up to her.

This is total BS.  The best way to demonstrate your high value to a woman who KNOWS HER OWN high value is to not give a damn about how many other guys might be circling around her.  Just give her direct clues that you clearly see HER OWN high value and accept that she's aware of it enough not to fall for your cheap tricks.  The more hard-to-get you play, the easier it is to perceive (for an intelligent and perceptive woman) that you are terribly insecure about your own high value (and therefore excessively focused on it) and don't really give a damn about the woman's dignity.  As I wrote before, a little humility in this venture won't hurt at all.  That is, if you're after a really high-value woman.

P.S. I get a feeling that for you, it's all about the chase, not the result.  When I go after results, I visualize the goal.  You seem to be visualizing mostly yourself and shaping your own character in this adventure.  The girls are just a setting.  Not a bad pastime, but hardly conducive to the long-term goals you've declared.  Oh well, N-sk is not the last town on your list, have fun.   

[Lily]

By and large, in general TBB writes the right thing about attracting a woman.

I'd love to read something on the other side, on how to impress a quality man who does not show a lot of interest 

[Misha]

High-value women get propositioned all the time.

In Russia, for a woman in her mid-to-late twenties, these propositions will generally involve married men looking for mistresses  :evil:

If you want to pursue a high-value women, you have to be different from the twelve other guys that approached her that week (or that day) to get her intrigued.

TwoBit, in reading your posts, you seem to make dating in Russia much more difficult that it was when I was single and looking. I can't see why things would have changed that much. If I am not mistaken, you are relatively young (i.e. younger than middle-aged) and are looking for women in their mid-twenties (in other words reasonable by Russian standards age difference). If they replied to you and met you, they are already intrigued. If they haven't married the local oligarch or one of his sons, it is unlikely she will. If she hasn't married a decent Russian man by then, she is already thinking that her odds are not that good. In other words, I can't quite understand the need to having such gaming strategies when any of these women is more than likely to see you as a great catch. Again, I don't understand the need to worry about when to send SMS messages and appearing to be "high-value"  :noidea:

[SFandEE]

In Russia, for a woman in her mid-to-late twenties, these propositions will generally involve married men looking for mistresses 

How are mistresses perceived in Russian and Ukrainian society?  Scale of 1 to 10.  Let's go from France (10) as openly acknowledge mistresses as the right of the powerful male to US (1) as in give me half your money and kiss your kids good-bye.

I imagine at some point they are discarded, but when they are in their glory.

[Misha]

How are mistresses perceived in Russian and Ukrainian society?

At least 8 or 9 IMHO.

[groovlstk]

At least 8 or 9 IMHO.

Same reading here.

[TwoBitBandit]

Thursday, July 1:

Is it already July?  Time flies!

Perhaps this trip report makes it seem like Russian girls are falling out of the sky.  However, the truth is that I made an enormous amount of preparation.  I looked at THOUSANDS of profiles on mamba and wrote to hundreds.  I consider that my Russian is pretty good: after all, I’m here in Russia alone dating Russian girls without any field support of any kind.  When I need to read or write SMS messages in Russian while I’m in the back seat of a taxi (whom I’m giving directions to in Russian) without a dictionary or an interpreter, I’m on my own.  I meet and carry on two-hour conversations during dates on arbitrary topics only in Russian, which is one of the most difficult Western languages.  (The most difficult Western language is considered to be Finnish, which has twelve noun cases in the singular and thirteen in the plural, and the word “not” is conjugated like a verb.)  I have no support at all when I call a girl up on the phone to tell her “Let’s meet at 12:45 in front of the statues of soldiers on Lenin Square, and then we’ll head off together and have lunch at the Japanese restaurant near Red Street, then we’ll walk down the hill to the River station and have a boat ride until 3:30.”  Can you say that in Russian?

I have this frame about learning a foreign language: you won’t get much respect from foreigners just by speaking well enough to be understood.  If you want to be respected by respectable people, you must learn a language well enough to speak and write it like an educated person.  If someone says to you, “I want go to main street, how best go route there?” you’ll get what they want.  But will you respect that dumbass?  And I’m certainly far from speaking Russian like a university-educated Russian.  However, I make my best effort.  When I write, I spend hours looking up words I don’t know.  I have a special dictionary that shows declinations of irregular nouns.  I try to make sure that every word I write in a message is using correct grammar, and I look it up if I’m not sure.  I make an enormous effort, and that takes time.  In the month before I came here, I spent three hours a day, every day, reading and responding to messages on mamba and painstakingly trying to write out the responses in grammatically--correct Russian.  I’m sure I still made lots of mistakes, but I really did make my best effort to put my best foot forward.

When I started chasing Russian girls, I seriously underestimated the effort required.  But, I’m so far into it (and so hooked on Russian girls) that I continue anyways.  But, I wouldn’t really advise many people to walk this path.  Don’t let this trip report make you think that this path is easy.  Think really hard before you make this jump.  Just sayin’.

So, I start my normal ritual of internet and coffee.  Actually, my internet ritual is all about this board and about email now.  I’ve lost interest in what’s happening with the credit crisis in Greece, or credit spreads on Spanish bonds, or whether what leading economic activity indicators are saying.  I’m truly in vacation mode now: I’m thinking about enjoying my time and about Russian girls.

When it’s not too early (around 11:00) I call up Anna.  She answers, and I say I want to meet her.  “Is 6:00 or 7:00 better?”  (In salesman lingo: assuming the sale.)  She says that she’s really tired because I sent her home so late last night, but she’d like to meet me tomorrow.  We agree to meet in the evening.  I can tell I’m losing control of the frame here, but I’m not going to improve the situation by arguing.  I agree.

An aside about Anna: the more time I spend with Anna that more I realize what a catch she is.  I had a great conversation with her last night.  In an effort to reel her in, I let my guard down a little more: I told her about some of my failed relationships, and more importantly, the life lessons I learned from them.  And she let her guard down a little bit, which is good.  The next date I have with her will be critical for setting the future frame.

I’m running out of prospects, so I need to pull down some girls from the “standby” category from the “active” category.  I’ve purposefully been vague about when I’m arriving in Novosibirsk.  I already told three new girls that I’m here and I want to meet them.  A couple of days ago I already told the next three, Evgenia, Maria and Marina that I’m here.  I have had a policy for meeting girls: I don’t meet with any girls until I’ve talked to them on the phone and have the impression that they want to meet me.  Part of reeling in girls is getting them invested in you.  If you say, “I’m in town, let’s meet” they don’t have much investment.  If you write for a little bit then say, “I’m in town, let’s meet” they have a little more.  If you write and say, “I’m coming to town in a month,” then write them for awhile every few days, then talk to them on the phone a couple of times, and exchange a lot of SMS messages, then say “I’ll be there in four days” and then call them when you arrive, then they’re really invested.  And if they’re invested, then they’re less likely to flake, and more likely to show interest on the first date.

I was holding the evening free for Anna, but since that’s not happening I try to figure out what to do.  I already have a date with Elena (from Sunday) for the early afternoon today.  Eventually I get hold of Evgenia and Marina on the phone.  Maria is missing in action, perhaps I’ll try again tomorrow.  Evgenia agrees to meet me today in the evening.  She’s working late, so the date will be around nine o’clock or so.  Marina agrees to meet me tomorrow.  Marina is still a student, so she’s available during the day and agrees to meet me at 3 pm tomorrow.

At around noon I start exchanging SMS messages with Elena, and we agree to meet at 3:30 at the entrance to the zoo.  I’ve already been to the zoo, but I didn’t see every animal.  Besides, it could be a fun second date.  I’m tired of the “let’s take a walk and then go to a café for awhile” date.

I look at the Google map of Novosibirsk, but there’s no good way to get from my flat to the zoo on the metro.  The metro might save me a little time, but it also adds a degree of randomness.  I don’t have a printer, so I start drawing a map.  If I were a native citizen I’d know the intricacies of marshrutkas and busses and trams, but I have no idea about them as a foreigner.  By the time I am done screwing around in my flat and get dressed, time is tight.  I decide to just walk to Lenin square and take a taxi, which costs around $10.  The taxi driver is pretty cool.  He’s an older guy that also drove during the Soviet area.  For an older guy he has some serious driving agro and he’s hauling through the city.  It’s kind of fun, and I trust him and I like his driving.  (I am personally an aggressive driver and have owned various Porsches. I’ve had professional driving training on the track and in autocross.)  He speaks quite a bit of English, which surprised me.  Every time I ask him a question in Russian, he answers in pretty good English.  It’s a fun ride.  I understand why Winston Churchill said “Russia is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.”  It’s so easy to fall in love with the quirkiness of this mysterious country.

We get to the park and I pay him the 300 roubles and tip him fifty.  “Thank you,” he says.  I say “You’re welcome,” which is the first thing I’ve said to him so far in Russian.  He laughs.

I’m about fifteen minutes early.  I’m starving, so I buy some chips and wolf them down.  Elena is about ten minutes late.  I buy the tickets and we enter the park.  I’m enjoying watching all the animals and their behaviors.  I comment on their behaviors and make comments on their psychology to try to elicit any kind of response from Elena.  We go back and forth talking about various topics like life in Russia and jobs and stuff.  I enjoy talking to her but I realize that I’m going to have to change the frame if this is going to go anywhere.  It feels like we’re having the same date that we did last time.  She’s acting indifferently: if I stand too close to her she re-creates the space.  If I “accidentally” touch shoulders with her as we walk she steps away.  At one point I tried holding her hand but she clearly didn’t want it so I let go after a few seconds.

I’ve been to the zoo before with Anna so I kind of know my way around, and when Elena is ready to start going I want to go see some of the other exhibits and a few cages I didn’t see with either girl.  But, I don’t want to let on that I’ve been here before with some other girl, so I just defer to her.  My focus is on the interaction, not on the zoo.  I keep trying to subtly change the frame to something more interesting but she’s quite guarded.  We leave the zoo and start walking toward some square where she’s going to meet her friend in about ninety minutes.  The conversation I have with her is pleasant enough, but I realize that it isn’t going anywhere.  I really have to change the frame.  I start talking about our first meeting, and a conversation I had on the phone with a friend of mine in America after the meeting where I discussed her.  This sort of gets her attention: she’s wondering what I said about her.  I tell her something like, “I was talking to my friend, and I told him I met this girl named Elena.  She seemed really intelligent, but she was really standoffish.  That’s the problem with smart girls: they overanalyze everything, and by the time they are ready to make a decision the window of opportunity has closed.“  This gets her interest.  I’ve found that a valuable technique with dealing with women is to give them both a compliment and a mild insult at the same time.  (compliment: you’re intelligent.  Insult: you’re indecisive)  This has some positive effect, and her interest level in the conversation clearly increases.  She wants to know what else I told my friend.  

She really wants to hear more about my impressions of her, but I’m playfully elusive now that I’ve got her attention.  I turn it around and ask her impressions of me.  She talks for about five minutes about it.  We’re walking along a very busy street and between the complex vocabulary she’s using and the street noise I don’t understand much of it… which makes me want to study Russian harder.  If I had understood this monologue it would have helped me.  

We eventually get to the square (I forget the name, but it’s at the northernmost metro station in Novosibirsk), and then pop into a café she knows about.  She really wants to hear more of my impressions about her.    I’ve clearly increased her interest level: she’s leaning forward, constantly playing with her necklace and twirled her finger in her hair a few times.  I point it out to her and she asks what I think it means.  I tell here it means that she’s interested in me and in the conversation.  She smiles.

Eventually her friend that she has to meet calls.  We pay the tab and leave the café.  It’s starting to sprinkle, which is surprising since it was clear when I left the flat.  I get on the metro go to home.  I go for the kiss but she turns her cheek.  I don’t kiss her cheek, and accuse her playfully of being a difficult girl.  She smiles, and suggests that we meet tomorrow.  It’s a vague request, so I agree since it doesn’t really tie me down to anything specific.  We go our separate ways.

By the time I get home it is POURING.  I remember leaving the flat and deciding not to stuff my super-compact umbrella in my pocket.  Sometimes I get back to my flat at the end of the night and wonder “what was my worst mistake today, and now can I not make it again?”  I already know the answer to that: when you’re in Siberia in the summer, take your friggin’ umbrella with you.  I’ve already been in Siberia in the summer and I know how quickly the weather can change. I should have known better.

I get back to the flat and take off my soaking wet clothes.  Later I touch based with Evgenia, and we agree to meet at 9:15 at Lenin Square.  Evgenia is from my “B” list.  Her picture wasn’t that great but she wrote well and was fun to talk to on the phone, so I decided to try to meet her if it was convenient.  I’ve been meeting some pretty tall girls.  I own a pair of elevator shoes that add a few inches to my height.  At one point I thought the concept sort of silly, but after they were endorsed by Glenn O’Brian in a particular column of “The Style Guy” in GQ I decided to try them out.  It’s kind of fun to be a few inches taller, especially dating tall girls in Russia who are even taller when they wear high heels.  Wearing them is sort of like walking downhill all the time, but it’s OK once you get used to it.  I’m running out of time to meet Evgenia on time and I don’t really have time to do a research project to see if she is a tall girl or not.  I decide to wear the shoes anyways, why not?

Evgenia is about 15 minutes late, but she sent me an SMS so at least I knew what was going on.  I instantly realize I didn’t need the tall shoes.  This girl is like 5’3”!  She’s a little bit cuter than her pictures.  She’s got light brown hair that almost touches her shoulders and blue eyes.  She’s in good shape and thin.  She smiles as I greet her.  I instantly like her and we have good eye contact.  We go to a café she knows of.  She giggles a lot.  I don’t think it’s me in particular, I think she’s just a giggly girl.  We get to the café and I lead her to a nice table by a window on the second floor.  We have a fun but superficial conversation.  She’s been to Spain and Mexico and Turkey.  I was pretty surprised that she went to Mexico alone with her girlfriend, but she said she’s done it.  She lives in her own flat apart from her parents who also live in Novosibirsk.  I like girls with this kind of life experience who have traveled and are trying to build their own life: they seem to have more clarity about what they want in life.

Evgenia is really positive and smiles and giggles a lot, which is an unusual trait among Russians.  I feel attracted to her: she’s like a little affection kitten that I want to adopt.  It’s getting late and parts of the transit system are closing soon, so I pay the tab and we start walking toward the metro station at around 10:30.  As we’re walking, we get on the topic of ballroom dancing and she says she also is studying Cha Cha.  I grab her hand, lift it above her head and spin her, and she spins and giggles.  I see her off at the metro doors.

I like Evgenia and I’d do a second date with her.

The plan for tomorrow is this: I’ll get hold of Anna and arrange my date with her.  At 3pm I have a date with Marina (a new girl).  If I have time I might try to arrange a third date at around 5 or so, but it depends on when I’m meeting Anna.  If Anna wants to meet early I won’t do that: I don’t want to lose my eye on the prize.

How long have I been writing this daily report?  It’s already 2:40 am! (уже без двадцати три, or literally “the third hour without twenty minutes”)  I need my beauty sleep!  

[SFandEE]

At least 8 or 9 IMHO.

]

This is an unfamiliar concept to me in my real life.  So the family of a 28 year-old, college educated, attractive Ukrainian women would openly support and perhaps encourage their daughter as a mistress?  Especially since she was unable to find a good match for a husband.

[groovlstk]

]

This is an unfamiliar concept to me in my real life.  So the family of a 28 year-old, college educated, attractive Ukrainian women would openly support and perhaps encourage their daughter as a mistress?  Especially since she was unable to find a good match for a husband.

Of course not 

This should be broken off into a new topic, TBB already has enough tangential stuff going on in his TR.

[Daveman]

Ahhhhh, I like Evgenia already... smiley, giggly and intelligent... my favorite so far!! heh

[Misha]

]

This is an unfamiliar concept to me in my real life.  So the family of a 28 year-old, college educated, attractive Ukrainian women would openly support and perhaps encourage their daughter as a mistress?  Especially since she was unable to find a good match for a husband.

Wouldn't encourage it per se but would more likely understand it and there would be less moral outrage

[Boethius]

In Ukraine, it really depends on who you are speaking to.  There are plenty of individuals there who view casual prostitution as completely normal and moral.  Same with mistresses.  But there are plenty of people who would view this as repugnant.  The difference there is people generally don't care what someone else is doing. 

On game/cues, etc. - Many of you overthink this.  Be yourself.  Don't try looking for "cues".  After a few dates, you'll know the answer.  The game playing adds nothing to a relationship or potential relationship.

[Jooky]

Perhaps this trip report makes it seem like Russian girls are falling out of the sky.

They do when I'm in Novo. 

About being yourself:

TwoBitBandit is a highly intelligent and organized guy. He's been approaching all aspects of his life with a strategy and methodology. I think it makes sense to me that he approaches women in the same manner.

Now, this might not be the way others approach women, and some of you find it strange or disengenous, but I think he's very much being himself by doing things in a way that suits him and his personality.

About being your 'best' self:

TwoBit mentioned this and I think this is the crux of any books of forums that teach the 'art of attracting women'. The goal isn't to be someone you are not. The goal is either to improve yourself, permanently, or more often make adjustments so that you can be your true self around women.

See, a lot of men can be confident, witty, relaxed or interesting amongst their friends and family, but once they get around attractive women they get nervous and freeze up. They don't know what to do or what to say. Is that 'being themselves'? Well, it's an aspect of themselves, but it’s  an aspect these men wish they could discard.

It seems to me this is what TwoBitBandit has done. He’s adjusted himself to break free from his awkwardness in approaching women so he can be his real self around them, and sure he might play a few games to keep their interest, but that’s not the main point.  In his dates he mentions discussing intellectual or philosophical topics, for example. That sounds to me that he’s very much being himself, and these women are getting a much better picture of what life would really be like with TwoBit than they would if he hadn’t rid himself of his past nervous or awkward persona when in the presence of beautiful women. (If I’m wrong, you can correct me, TwoBit  )

About signs of attraction:

This is a tricky one! In general those signs listed above hold true.

However... I know plenty of women who know how to fake all these signs in order to manipulate a man. A good friend in Moscow tells me that most attractive Russian women know exactly what signs to show, deliberately and with any man that might slightly interest them, just in case there is something to gain from them in the future.

Also, when you're dealing with shy girls, that list can often be tossed out the window. I've dated quite a few shy girls in the past, and on a first or second date the signs they show might be exactly the opposite until you can break the ice and establish a good level of comfort with them.

[Gator]

TwoBit,

I appreciate Jooky's personal observation; however, it was already evident because you write so candidly.  Few men would admit to having kisses refused, wearing elevator shoes, etc.  And the Craig's List link said it all. 

We all have been in the awkward stage, and have sufferred through some forgettable moments.  And yes, we should try to improve so as to not make those mistakes again.  You have now retooled yourself with tailored clothing, bodybuilding, and self-taught courses in A to Z.  That is fine, and I respect your superficial changes.  Yet, are you missing something?

It takes a well adjusted, self-assured man to admit to refused kisses, etc.  That is commendable, highly commendable.  You are blessed with high intelligence.  Regardless of your former awkwardness, you are successful in your profession.   Why not build on these desirable and worthy qualities rather than become this "Mr. Man, slayer of women."

I fear that your screening criteria may not be the most important.   Instead of worrying what a woman may be thinking about you, why not just relax, get comfortable and smell the roses.   Ask yourself a couple of simple questions:  Am I having a really good time with her?   Is conversation easy and interesting (and not contrived BS to trip her up)?   

You really do not need to know more now.  If "yes,"  ask her out again.  If "no,"  forget her, even if she tests positive on everything in your long list. 

Somewhere there is a RW who makes your life fun.

 

[Ranetka]

TwoBit,

I appreciate Jooky's personal observation; however, it was already evident because you write so candidly.  Few men would admit to having kisses refused, wearing elevator shoes, etc.  And the Craig's List link said it all. 

We all have been in the awkward stage, and have sufferred through some forgettable moments.  And yes, we should try to improve so as to not make those mistakes again.  You have now retooled yourself with tailored clothing, bodybuilding, and self-taught courses in A to Z.  That is fine, and I respect your superficial changes.  Yet, are you missing something?

It takes a well adjusted, self-assured man to admit to refused kisses, etc.  That is commendable, highly commendable.  You are blessed with high intelligence.  Regardless of your former awkwardness, you are successful in your profession.   Why not build on these desirable and worthy qualities rather than become this "Mr. Man, slayer of women."

I fear that your screening criteria may not be the most important.   Instead of worrying what a woman may be thinking about you, why not just relax, get comfortable and smell the roses.   Ask yourself a couple of simple questions:  Am I having a really good time with her?   Is conversation easy and interesting (and not contrived BS to trip her up)?   

You really do not need to know more now.  If "yes,"  ask her out again.  If "no,"  forget her, even if she tests positive on everything in your long list. 

Somewhere there is a RW who makes your life fun.

 

Mr Gator,
that was a wonderful summary.

That was what I kind of felt but could not express. So true.

[BrianW]

TwoBitBandit,


Here's a way to avoid getting rejected for kisses in the future. Moments before you want to kiss her, touch her face or hair. If she looks away, flinches, or her body turns away from you, she's not interested in you romantically.

On the other hand, if you touch her face or hair and she stays still, makes eye contact, smiles and her body is facing yours, she is interested in you and is ready to be kissed.

[Daveman]

TwoBitBandit,


Here's a way to avoid getting rejected for kisses in the future. Moments before you want to kiss her, touch her face or hair. If she looks away, flinches, or her body turns away from you, she's not interested in you romantically.

On the other hand, if you touch her face or hair and she stays still, makes eye contact, smiles and her body is facing yours, she is interested in you and is ready to be kissed.

I use that trick as well, only differing in that I use a small skin colored cloth around my hand doused with chloroform... though that approach does make navigating back to the apartment via Metro or Marshrutka a tad more difficult...

[BrianW]

I use that trick as well, only differing in that I use a small skin colored cloth around my hand doused with chloroform... though that approach does make navigating back to the apartment via Metro or Marshrutka a tad more difficult...

Amateur. 

[TwoBitBandit]

TwoBit, in reading your posts, you seem to make dating in Russia much more difficult that it was when I was single and looking. I can't see why things would have changed that much. If I am not mistaken, you are relatively young (i.e. younger than middle-aged) and are looking for women in their mid-twenties (in other words reasonable by Russian standards age difference). If they replied to you and met you, they are already intrigued. If they haven't married the local oligarch or one of his sons, it is unlikely she will. If she hasn't married a decent Russian man by then, she is already thinking that her odds are not that good. In other words, I can't quite understand the need to having such gaming strategies when any of these women is more than likely to see you as a great catch. Again, I don't understand the need to worry about when to send SMS messages and appearing to be "high-value"  :noidea:

You have a valid point here.  I’m calibrated to the dating culture in Silicon Valley, which is one of the world’s worst places to meet women.  It’s got all of the mating market characteristics of other urban centers (anonymous urban living; no shaming of sluts; government policy that encourages female hypergamy; female economic independence) plus a skewed sex ratio (due to high-tech) and a high cost of living that causes an exodus of traditional female vocations such as teachers.  Most of the girls I date in Silicon Valley are high-testosterone competitive career girls.  To succeed with them, your game must be top notch.

One of the things that has helped me understand women better is books about evolutionary biology.  The ideal reproduction strategy for a man is that of Genghis Khan: be super alpha have as many children with as many women as possible through any means possible.  Obviously, not very men can do that.  But the men that can are in great demand.

Because the cost of a child is so high for a woman, the woman wants the very best father.  Why does she want to invest in the genes of a low-quality guy?  The only reason to do that is if she thinks the guy will stick around and help her raise the child.  But, if you remove the constraint of needing the guy to stick around and be the provider, she’ll always go for the alpha male.  This is exactly what feminism has done for women in the west: they don’t need the beta provider.  The culture tolerates sluts with no social shaming.  The government taxes the crap out of anything that moves to provide services to single mothers.  (“…think of the children!  When are we going to put the children first?”)   Birth control reduces the risk of unwanted pregnancy.

Freed of cultural constraints on their hypergamous behavior, women all want the alpha.  If you put 1000 men and 1000 women on an island, you’d think that the highest-value man and the highest-value woman would hook up, and the 624th-highest-value woman would hook up with her 624th peer among men.  But, that’s not what happens if womens’ sexuality is unconstrained.  Woman #128 will decide she doesn’t like man #128 that much: she’d rather be the second wife of man #1.  (Of course, man #1 also has no objection to this.)  And woman #674 will become the second wife of man #134.  And so on.  The top twenty percent of men are getting eighty percent of the sex.  The next thirty percent get scraps here and there.  And the bottom half… well, you know what guys do when they don’t have a girl.  This island is a mirror of what’s going on in urban coastal cities in America.

Throughout time, cultures like this are unstable.  Lots of restless unmarried men running around creates wars and social chaos, which is why cultures evolve taboos to constrain sexuality and keep woman #674 hooked up with man #674, and prevent man #1 from sleeping with the whole community.  And this situation in the west is unstable: it won’t be like this forever.  But for now, it’s what is happing.

This is amplified by the sexual power of young girls.  Nature plays a cruel trick on women: they have the bulk of their social power when they are young and beautiful.  But at that point in their lives, they don’t appreciate how transient it is nor how to be Machiavellian about using it.  And since they get attention from alphas and sleep with alphas, they think they can keep alphas.  But most of them can’t, because that same alpha has a rotating soft harem of many women.  But they keep trying.  And the slightly-off-beta that is building his career and playing xbox (that is, statistically, her peer) isn’t interesting to her.  Dating that guy after dating alphas is like going from eating steak to eating asparagus.

The rise of the “pickup community” in the English-speaking western world is simply a response to feminism.  Feminism is saying to men, “We want to be freed from the social constraints on our sexuality, and we want the betas to pay the cost of it.  You betas over there, stop complaining about sex, you don’t need any of that.  Get in your cubes and pay your taxes like good betas should.”  And since young men are wired to seek sex aggressively, they’ll do anything possible to break out of that frame regardless of the cost.  Individually, men can’t change the sexual milieu in which they live.  But, they can learn “game.”  So, the “pickup community” is born.

In costal urban centers in America (like Silicon Valley), the “beta-provider” frame is done with.  For the young career women there, making some money is just one item on the checklist.  Everyone is making good money in Silicon Valley: it’s not a big deal.  To catch women there, you must also have alpha coming out of your pores.  Everything you do must radiate the frame “I’m Bond.  James Bond.”

In fact, I have a rule about dating girls in Silicon Valley: I never take a girl out for dinner at a fancy restaurant until after I’ve slept with her.  It’s not about the money: if I have money to fly to Russia to chase girls I can afford lots of fancy dinners.  The problem is that fancy dinners actually hurt your chances of moving the relationship forward, since that’s not the way the alpha behaves.

(I can already hear Blues Fairy telling me that I’m not going to catch high-value women that way.  And I concede that there is a minority of traditionally-minded girls, usually from immigrant families who respect the beta-provider frame… but what I said is true for the vast majority of young women in the ‘hookup culture’.)

Now Russia is a wholly different culture.  The beta-provider frame is a viable strategy.  You don’t have to have that same “I’m Bond. James Bond.” frame to catch women, and in some ways I can see that it might work against you if you overdo it.   Life is harder there, and the consequences of unconstrained sexuality for women are real.  The life of a single mother in Russia is awful, and the state doesn’t pound men into submission through high taxes, affirmative action and a kangaroo family court system.  So, a woman is much more likely to look at a “solid beta” guy that can dress himself and make some money as a great catch even if he’s not the alpha of her fantasies.  I’ve already taken Anna out to dinner twice and haven’t even kissed the girl, which is something I’d never do in the United States.  So, I have calibrated my behavior slightly.

Misha, getting back to your original point: you’re right.  Dating in Russia really is much easier.  I’ve become to attuned to the sheer brutality of the dating market in Silicon Valley that I may be overdoing it.

[Jooky]

Hey TwoBitBandit,

I've heard that evolutionary biology theory many times, but I've never been able to relate it to the reality I've seen around me.

In reality the guys I've know with the most game, who get the most action, just don't fit the good genes or good father mold.

They're not leaders.
They're not providers. Some can barely support themselves.
They're not in particular good fathers.
They're not the center of attention when you walk into a room. They’re not the type to be in control of a situation.
Some are tall and well built, but most are not. Some are good looking guys, some are not.
Most are not genetically exceptional in any way.

What they are is either interesting and exciting or just plain confident around women. Aside from their ability to attract women they wouldn't be labeled alpha in any respect of the term.

I'm not saying 'alpha men' don't attract women. Most do.

But, I’d simplify the theory to: men that excite women get laid more often. 

[TwoBitBandit]

I've heard that evolutionary biology theory many times, but I've never been able to relate it to the reality I've seen around me.

In reality the guys I've know with the most game, who get the most action, just don't fit the good genes or good father mold.
[...]
What they are is either interesting and exciting or just plain confident around women. Aside from their ability to attract women they wouldn't be labeled alpha in any respect of the term.

I'm not saying 'alpha men' don't attract women. Most do. But, I’d simplify the theory to: men that excite women get laid more often.

Part of the answer to this is how you define "alpha."  If you define alpha as "making women tingle a lot" then these guys you're referring to are alpha.  A tatooed Harley-Davidson rider is just as alpha in this definition.  And since being beta doesn't get you any nookie, anyone who wants to get nookie will seek to emulate them instead of slaving away in a cubicle in a beta frame. 

Obviously, there are other definitions of alpha.  If you define "alpha" as "a strong leader of men" then you're talking about a much smaller set of men.