Novosibirsk Doesn't Believe in Tears: TwoBit's Sixteen Days In Novosibirsk

[Gator]

Privet TwoBit,

Your approach is so interesting and you write it so well that some of us may be taking this to a vicarious level.  Thus, we may forget  that we are not in your shoes.  Certainly, we can not question battlefield decisions. Our Monday morning quarterbacking is just that.  So please do not let our comments deflate your attitude.  Everyone is pulling for you.  You are the Captain of your Soul!

With that caveat, here goes (can't help myself).  You dismissed Anna in no uncertain terms.   Did you burn your bridges or do you plan to call her later?

My question is where was Anna Sunday morning.  A very long church service?  A dacha outside telephone service?    Misha asked, "Why doesn't she have a boyfriend?"  Well maybe she dates a RM and could not return your call when with him.  Maybe she is not thrilled about this RM, and that is why she spends time with you.  Maybe .....Who knows?  It is possible that she was not playing a game by refusing to accept your call.

I would give her a call and have a "Come to Jesus" talk.

When we date a marriage agency RW, most are committed to moving to the West with the right man.  Also, they have been schooled as to the MOB dating routine, e. g. compressed time schedules for making decisions.  Someone like Anna has not had these prerequisites.

[ML]

When we date a marriage agency RW, most are committed to moving to the West with the right man.  Also, they have been schooled as to the MOB dating routine, e. g. compressed time schedules for making decisions.  Someone like Anna has not had these prerequisites.

Many (most) of the women in FSU who are on dating sites are also registered with some marriage agency.  So not a sure bet to conclude that Anna has not had experience there also.

[SMS60]

I "get" and applaud that but the real question is, what is the "intent of the trip"?

Good question. I'm leaning towards the possibility of yanking everyones chain on the forum. The reaction factor.

This TR follows the same MO as the av8tor TR from the past.The only difference is TBB is not being as arrogant as av8tor was. which makes this trip report better to read and take from.  In fact, early in the thread the av8tor TR was used as an answer for one of the questions I asked to TBB early in the thread. Very strange.

If you follow you will notice any questions or advice on "game" will be discussed and answered in a civilized way. Any questions, comments or advice on choosing a girl or getting more serious with a girl or looking in the mirror will be met with harsh responses or the questions will be ignored. The combativeness in posting comes out only when posters start to question why TBB is not making a choice. Again very strange.

I dint even see TBB as a sex tourist. He not even getting close to kissing his dates on the cheek.Again everything is so strange its hard to process. Hell every hot blooded male would being trying to take one of their dates back to the flat for a night of passion. Again weird.

TBB

Whats up with all the zoo dates?

I will play along with your game theories and give my suggestion on Anna.

The problem with Anna is you did not escalate the interactions after the first date.The second date should have included some physical contact, touching maybe a little caressing. Whats that word..... Kino... you know what I mean. She thinks you lack testosterone in your blood. You didnt escalate or move forward, major mistake in controlling the frame.

Viewer warning!!!!...Im going to be blunt.........TBB The best way to control the frame after a few dates is be to a point where you will be spending a night together. Then you give her the best sex she has ever experienced. I mean mind blowing sex. Not just for you I mean her. The type where her eyes roll up into the back of her head and her toes look like pretzels. Then do it again.

She will never forget you. You will be in her mind 24/7. You now have complete control of the frame.

[Misha]

Many (most) of the women in FSU who are on dating sites are also registered with some marriage agency.  So not a sure bet to conclude that Anna has not had experience there also.

Not true. On the Mamba network that TwoBit is using, you have in total 4 725 488 profiles of women (1 769 830 profiles with photos). How many Russian women in total have profiles with a marriage agency? Elena's models, as a point in comparison, has roughly 7000 profiles. Even if you were to drop all the profiles of all the women looking for sponsors, a client, and so forth, the numbers still dwarf anything you will find on the agency sites. The reality is that most (almost all) of the women who are on the Russian language dating sites such as Mamba have never been registered with a marriage agency, but in my past experience many/most of the women who are are registered with an agency and are seriously looking for a good husband are also on the mamba network.   

[Misha]

When we date a marriage agency RW, most are committed to moving to the West with the right man.  Also, they have been schooled as to the MOB dating routine, e. g. compressed time schedules for making decisions.  Someone like Anna has not had these prerequisites.

Exactly. A woman like Anna more than likely has some men that she may date, but for whatever reason they have not turned into marriage material. She would likely to dump them if she had a solid prospect that she knew had a good chance of panning out. However, she won't dump IMHO even mediocre prospects for a great option who is likely to disappear in 16 days never to be seen again.

The problem with these gaming/framing techniques is that they might apply to 20-year-old Russian women when most of their friends are still dating and all are usually trying to find the best match possible. However, once women their mid-twenties this dynamic has already shifted.

[TwoBitBandit]

This TR follows the same MO as the av8tor TR from the past.The only difference is TBB is not being as arrogant as av8tor was. which makes this trip report better to read and take from.  In fact, early in the thread the av8tor TR was used as an answer for one of the questions I asked to TBB early in the thread. Very strange.

I agree that av8tor had a strong personality.  I’d rather say he “had a strong frame” rather than use the word arrogant.  And I met him in person and talked to him on the phone, and after every interaction I remember thinking, “this guy has a strong frame.”  Nevertheless, the abuse he got in that trip report was completely unwarranted.

If you follow you will notice any questions or advice on "game" will be discussed and answered in a civilized way. Any questions, comments or advice on choosing a girl or getting more serious with a girl or looking in the mirror will be met with harsh responses or the questions will be ignored. The combativeness in posting comes out only when posters start to question why TBB is not making a choice. Again very strange.

My frame on this is something like “I’m writing what I choose to write.”  Any member of this board can comment or not comment on any post of mine as they like.  I’m entitled to respond or not respond, as I like.

I dint even see TBB as a sex tourist. He not even getting close to kissing his dates on the cheek.Again everything is so strange its hard to process. Hell every hot blooded male would being trying to take one of their dates back to the flat for a night of passion. Again weird.

Here’s my perspective on this: I’m trying to get what I want out this process while still being a gentleman.  The profile I wrote on mamba was direct and sincere.  I don’t think it is disingenuous to talk about serious relations and also meet a lot of girls and make a careful decision about how to move forward.  I do think it is disingenuous to talk about serious relations and then figure out how to bend every Russian girl over the kitchen table in my flat.  If I was even more Machiavellian, I’d sort the girls into two groups: the marriageable and the not marriageable.  I’d sell myself as a great guy to the first group, and figure out how to manipulate the second group into bed in whatever way possible.  But I’m not doing that: I’m chasing the first group and just letting go of the second group.

I realize that I have the upper hand here.  Russia is a dog-eat-dog world.  Certainly, the world here has improved since 1997 when where was no food in stores, but it’s still a much harder life here.  And certainly, the promise of a better life in the west is an incentive for the young women to come and meet me.  And why should I use that disingenuously bed Russian girls just because I can?

Now, it’s a different deal when I date girls in America.  I’ve seduced and slept with American girls with no intent calling them the next day, but those are girls in my own culture.  I’m on a level playing field.  They know what’s going on, and I know what’s going on.  And why should I feel bad about that?

I’m in my late thirties.  I’m just past senselessly bedding random girls just for the sake of it.  It doesn’t satisfy any real need anymore.

There’s probably a lot of you out there that think I’m not being a gentleman by the controversial ideas I’ve written in this thread.  Well, you’re entitled to that.  But I have my own set of ethics, whether any particular reader here agrees with them or not.

Whats up with all the zoo dates?

Well, it’s not like there’s tons of things to do here during the day.  I try to dress well, which means long sleeve shirts and long pants.  Even with linen shirts, that’s hot.  So, I need to go somewhere that’s shaded…and the Novosibirsk zoo is built in a forest, so it has shade.  It’s a good place to move around and keep the date interesting.  There are cafes at the zoo, so we can sit and talk for awhile and take a break.  It’s fun to make jokes about the animals.  When I was at the zoo with Rimma a couple of days, one of the tigers was lying down next to two tigresses.  I make a joke about him having two girlfriends, and that spawned a discussion where we both laughed.  The monkeys also make great conversation.

Certainly, I could take my day dates to a museum, but those are quiet and not a good place to have a conversation.  I could go for a walk, but I’m tired of walking around, I’ve walked everywhere.  I think I’ve been walking like five miles a day.  I could take her to the river embankment, but there’s no shade there.  We could just sit in a café, but that’s sort of boring.  Honestly, if you know Novosibirsk and have better ideas for daytime dates, please let me know.

I will play along with your game theories and give my suggestion on Anna.

The problem with Anna is you did not escalate the interactions after the first date.The second date should have included some physical contact, touching maybe a little caressing. Whats that word..... Kino... you know what I mean. She thinks you lack testosterone in your blood. You didnt escalate or move forward, major mistake in controlling the frame.

Viewer warning!!!!...Im going to be blunt.........TBB The best way to control the frame after a few dates is be to a point where you will be spending a night together. Then you give her the best sex she has ever experienced. I mean mind blowing sex. Not just for you I mean her. The type where her eyes roll up into the back of her head and her toes look like pretzels. Then do it again.

She will never forget you. You will be in her mind 24/7. You now have complete control of the frame.

As frank as my trip report has been, I don’t tell everything.  I don’t tell you about the times I tried to kiss Anna in the middle of the date and she resisted it.  On every date I tried multiple times to do something to escalate with Anna, but she kept her frame.  I agree with you that it is a mistake to NOT try to escalate.  Women expect escalation.  It’s far worse not to attempt escalation than to escalate and get some pushback.  Any hot woman has been dealing with men who want to touch them since she was fourteen.

Your approach is so interesting and you write it so well that some of us may be taking this to a vicarious level.  Thus, we may forget  that we are not in your shoes.  Certainly, we can not question battlefield decisions. Our Monday morning quarterbacking is just that.  So please do not let our comments deflate your attitude.  Everyone is pulling for you.  You are the Captain of your Soul!

Gator, I’d like to personally thank you for your honest feedback.  One of the things that I respect about you in dealing with ALL of the posters in ALL threads is that you understand diplomacy.  You know how to package a message to get it across.  Furthermore, you also have a lot of life experience, so the message you package is meaningful and useful.  Actually, I’ve been surprised by the quality of the useful feedback I’ve gotten from you and some others like Jooky and GQBlues.  (And there have been a couple of others, you three aren’t the only ones.)  When I started to write a trip report I thought it would be a one-way process with me writing a trip report and lot of people just making antagonistic comments that I had to ignore.  This trip has made me do some soul searching, and you’ve helped me.  So, thanks.  I hope we can meet sometime.  The beer is on me.

I also want to thank you for realizing that nobody reading this trip report really understands the “battlefield.”  Some of the comments here have the intent of being helpful, and are reasonable from the perspective of the reader, but being in the “battlefield” I can tell that they’re just not applicable.  (Although some of them have been helpful.)

 

With that caveat, here goes (can't help myself).  You dismissed Anna in no uncertain terms.   Did you burn your bridges or do you plan to call her later?

My question is where was Anna Sunday morning.  A very long church service?  A dacha outside telephone service?    Misha asked, "Why doesn't she have a boyfriend?"  Well maybe she dates a RM and could not return your call when with him.  Maybe she is not thrilled about this RM, and that is why she spends time with you.  Maybe .....Who knows?  It is possible that she was not playing a game by refusing to accept your call.

I would give her a call and have a "Come to Jesus" talk.

When we date a marriage agency RW, most are committed to moving to the West with the right man.  Also, they have been schooled as to the MOB dating routine, e. g. compressed time schedules for making decisions.  Someone like Anna has not had these prerequisites.

When I was younger and more idealistic, I took a job as a volunteer counselor at a youth crisis hotline.  I spent four hours a week listening to teenagers work out their angst.  In retrospect, it was one of the most useful life experiences I had.  It was far more useful than learning how to solve simplified cases of the Schrödinger wave equation.  Before you could answer any calls, you had to take a class which covered (among other things) how to truly listen to people.  There’s lots of subtleties to it, but I’d summarize it this way: (1) don’t superimpose your own life experience on the speaker (2) realize the speaker’s reality is true from their perspective (3) reflect the speaker’s position back to them without judgment.  And then, I spent four hours a week using these skills talking to troubled teens.  Even now I can remember some of the stories I heard, and they were stories I would have never had heard before I truly learned to listen.  The reason this has been useful it is really makes people open up.  It’s been tremendously useful as a manager.

I actually did have a conversation with Anna on our last night together.  And I talked about what I was looking for at this point in my life, and then I just listened to her response and reflected it back to her.  And, she opened up a bit, and I accepted her response.  Her perspective is something like, “I’m in no rush to start a relationship, and if you want a relationship with me you will have to do it on my schedule.”  It was clear that I wasn’t going to change her perspective just by arguing with her.  And, I understand her position: she’s used to dating Russian guys in Russia, and they accept that position.

I can’t possibly accept that position, because my time in Novosibirsk is limited.  My taking Anna out to sushi and the symphony while she rejects my advances isn’t going to change that.  In fact, it just makes me look like a tool that is willing to jump through her hoops.

I haven’t burned my bridge with Anna.  Anna and I actually did have an exchange earlier today, and the result of it is that we’re going to write.  The goal of me writing her will be to sell her on changing her frame from “I’m in no rush to start a relationship, and if you want a relationship with me you will have to do it on my schedule” to “I’m willing to accept TwoBitBandit as a potential partner in her life.”  And one of two things will happen: I’ll either sell her on that idea, in which case I can make a followup trip with a very different result, or I won’t sell her on that idea, in which case I’ll chase some other girls.

Many (most) of the women in FSU who are on dating sites are also registered with some marriage agency.  So not a sure bet to conclude that Anna has not had experience there also.

It may or may not be true that Anna has experience in marriage agency.  However, I have to disagree with the comment “Many (most) of the women in FSU who are on dating sites are also registered with some marriage agency.”  On mamba.ru, there are about five thousand girls from 25-30 just in Novosibirsk.  Do you think all five thousand of them are on bluesapphires, Elena’s Models and Cuteonly?

[TwoBitBandit]

Day 9: Sunday, July 4

I got to my flat at 1 am after a fun day in Novosibirsk.  I spent the next hour responding to comments in the thread.  And then I decided to put my tired body to sleep at 2:11 am and write Sunday's trip report on Monday.

[ECOCKS]

it is part of the natural dating process, for sure if you are sincere about a lady and you want to show it to her.  and I doubt if she would want some jewelry so soon, she doesn't come across that way.

It (gift-giving) is natural for some, yes, for others, no.

The whole "desired-behavior-elicits-desired-response" model and it's converse, "undesired-bahav...", works both ways.

I agree on overuse of the word "frame", it's become distracting.

Ask one of the gals to take you where you can buy a couple of short sleeve sport or dress shirts.

Any "upper hand" you perceive is only in your own mind. Believing otherwise gives her the upper hand if she knows anything about working the guy.

[Blues Fairy]

Her perspective is something like, “I’m in no rush to start a relationship, and if you want a relationship with me you will have to do it on my schedule.”  
I can’t possibly accept that position, because my time in Novosibirsk is limited.  My taking Anna out to sushi and the symphony while she rejects my advances isn’t going to change that.  In fact, it just makes me look like a tool that is willing to jump through her hoops.

A pretty big leap of logic here from "she's not ready to jump into a relationship with me" to "she wants me to jump through her hoops."  Wounded self-esteem?

What do you think will be necessary to change her position and yet not give her the so-dreaded upper hand?  How are you planning to "sell her on the idea" without actually infringing on her comfort zone?

[Gator]

TwoBit,

Thanks for the compliments.  Just remember that in my own life I chose the wrong woman after dating her off and on for 6 years.

[Gator]

A pretty big leap of logic here from "she's not ready to jump into a relationship with me" to "she wants me to jump through her hoops."  Wounded self-esteem?

What do you think will be necessary to change her position and yet not give her the so-dreaded upper hand?  How are you planning to "sell her on the idea" without actually infringing on her comfort zone?

Great questions, BluesFairy, even with making alittle dig at TBB.    He has gone to sleep. 

Comfort zone.  I like that expression;  there is no doubt as to what it means.

First, TBB does not reside in her comfort zone.  Maybe TBB will overcome that obstacle in the old fashioned way - sell himself and sell the opportunities that await her in California.

How about her other comfort zone, namely her slow schedule for cementing a relationship?    That one is difficult for an AM to overcome.

I am not ready to buy that her internal clock is so slow; however, all RW differ, as do the men who pursue them.  Perhaps Anna is that wise to understand that a long distance relationship is more complex than "boy meets girl."

I have experienced something similar albeit an older UW, an interesting woman from Kiev.  Dated her four times.  She had a top level job so she was not desperate to leave.  I once carried 50 kg of her food purchases up the steps to the 11th floor when  the elevator failed in her deluxe apartment building.  I thought that would win any heart.  I met her daughter who instantly liked me.   She fed me a good meal. We had wine.  Her daughter went out for a late evening.  The closest physical contact was a foot massage.  When asking why so reserved, she replied, "You leave Kiev soon."

We did meet a few months later in Morocco, and suddenly I became the pursued.

Thus, my suggestion to TBB would be to meet in the fall in Thailand for a week or so.  If that goes well, meet the family at New Year's.  HOWEVER,  first they have to complete some serious, soul searching correspondence such as you and your hubby did.

Perhaps TBB finds someone else in his remaining days.  And he might just do that, especially a woman who thinks TBB is the cat's meow.  That's the risk Anna takes, and she is willing to take it.  What does that mean if you had to guess, Blues Fairy?

[Vinnvinny]

However, I have to disagree with the comment “Many (most) of the women in FSU who are on dating sites are also registered with some marriage agency.”  On mamba.ru, there are about five thousand girls from 25-30.  Do you think all five thousand of them are on bluesapphires, Elena’s Models and Cuteonly?

+ 1. I have spent a lot of time on mamba and agency websites. It's closer to a few/some than many/most.

Have you tried Mystery's kiss close? 

[Blues Fairy]

How about her other comfort zone, namely her slow schedule for cementing a relationship?    That one is difficult for an AM to overcome.
I am not ready to buy that her internal clock is so slow; however, all RW differ, as do the men who pursue them.  Perhaps Anna is that wise to understand that a long distance relationship is more complex than "boy meets girl.

That's exactly the comfort zone I meant.
I was very similar to Anna in that I needed much more time and DEPTH in communication before I was ready to start a relationship, than what TBB's limited resources (meaning both time and soul power) seem to be able to furnish.  He seems to be a very cautious investor. 

That's the risk Anna takes, and she is willing to take it.  What does that mean if you had to guess, Blues Fairy?

Just that; she knows her value and is not willing to jump into something she's not quite sure she likes, or is ready for.  More time/soul investment necessary.  Unfortunately TBB sees this requirement as a direct assault on his "frame", manhood, self-esteem or whatever.  I wonder if his previous miss of a high-value woman occurred in similar circumstances. 

[Durk]

   
       Looking at the comments made by Blues and Gator I am thinking more
about the distance Anna has to be away from her home. Novo is not next
door to SoCal.. We do not know how close she is to her family.
       I was writing a girl in Novo, and one of the first things we talked about
was the distance from her family. This gal was 15 yrs. older than Anna and
she told me she could not be that far away from her family. She would consider
Europe, but the US and Canada was TO far away. I respected her thoughts
and we still write back and forth wondering how the other person is doing with
their search.
       Depending on how mature Anna is has a lot to do with how she looks at
her future. A 24 year old girl is still a 24 year old girl. TwoBit can sell all he wants
but Anna just is not ready to buy the goods.

[I/O]

I'm leaning towards the possibility of yanking everyones chain on the forum. The reaction factor.

I was referring to the "trip", not the report.

[Aloe]

Never, never, never tell that story to a RW.  It makes you sound like an absolutely heartless bastard. 

Really? I dont know what it sounds like to other women, but to me it sounded like it was her mistake that she regretted, what is he supposed to do, shes married with kids, why does getting on with his own life make him a bastard? She had her chance and blew it, long time ago.

[Aloe]

I also tend to agree with what BF said, quoted by Boethius below.

You guys give great advice on how to make Anna feel better about herself. Complimenting her, giving her presents, enhance romantic feelings, etc. However, I believe that there should be some advice on how to get her like TBB more, not herself!

People tend to like people who make them feel good about themselves. Unless there are such excessive amounts of people who compliment them

[Aloe]

Well this method has never failed for me anywhere in the world with any woman 6-10+.

Sit down and write a poem.. not some overly romantic crap, but something short, sweet -- something about her eyes, her lips, and your time together.. really impress her and write it in Russian.

On your next date with her, meet her with two dozen roses, 23 for her and the other for your pocket.  Giver her the roses first and them blow her away with the poem (don't read it to her, just hand it over as the surprise/feelings of the roses builds to maximum).  She'll either be beaming with delight to carry them around while you walk together, or she'll be standoffish because it's overt and people are watching.  If it's the former, then when you get to a secluded area, move your mouth to within an inch the edge of hers, and hold the position, and if she turns her head in to you this time, cool, if she turns her head away, follow her mouth with yours, brushing the edge with your lips... keeping the brushing touch and don't back off unless she creates a truly nasty scene...  then take her.

If she doesn't respond favorably to that, your frame with this one is in serious trouble. IMO only of course, and I freely admit to having little to no game with the ladies.  

A poem is nice, but if you dont have the talent and your poem isnt so good... It's pretty unpleasant having to fake joy from a crappy poem

[Aloe]

On my recent trip to Kharkiv, I kissed 11 of the 12 women I dated on first or second date.  I didn't want to kiss the 12th.  TBB if you really want to kiss a gal, then don't wait until the two of you are about to part.  At that point, the gal is thinking about it as she knows it is the traditional time, and maybe thinking she doesn't want it or wants to play hard to get.

So just give the kiss (doesn't have to be a big long one) at some odd point.  Quite often, right after finishing a meal, I get up from my chair, move over toward her chair and just lean in and give a quick kiss.  Once the first kiss is accomplished, then the tension is off and more can follow . . . or not.

Or, on second date (probably not on first), just as you meet, give a quick kiss.  It may startle her.  If so, just laugh and say something like: No need to worry now about when first kiss will occur.  This technique and reasoning was in a Woody Allen movie.

Are you talking of kissing on the lips or cheeks? If you are actually advising to plant one on her lips when she doesnt expect it, that is a very ill advise, in my opinion. Nothing worse than someone planting one on you when you dont expect, it. A huge turn off in my eyes. Unless im TREMENDOUSLY attracted to the guy, but that happens only with very very very very few guys. With usual guys it takes time to get attracted, and if he goes and kisses me out of the blue in the very beginning, when i dont expect it at all, that will definitely spoil the picture a lot.

[Aloe]

Let us play a "What If."   What if you were not married, were an upper 20s still living in Russia, not listed with a marriage agency, and you went out on a first date with TwoBit?  What would have to happen for you to become really interested in TwoBit and want a second and third date?

Other RW please jump in.

What would have to happen is him demonstrate that he is a good guy, without commitment issues, not a control-freak, good possible father and with good genes (healthy, well built, nice face, nice teeth) no foul breath, and that he has nice manners, and most importantly, that he is fiercely faithful, cuz im not about to tolerate cheaters. I think that is the trait he may be not showing in the eyes of the ladies: going out with so many women, trying to kiss each and every one of them (maybe he just has bad breath or bad teeth or lips in very poor condition?), cutting every date short. Frankly ive never been on a date that was going well and was THAT short (2-3 hours), if its good, it lasts many hours, the fact that he cuts a good date short alone shows he has some other women. That does not go well with my definition of a guy that has a potential to be faithful.

[Aloe]

If i was looking just for fun, it is possible i wouldnt mind a guy dating other women. I dated this foreign guy, we would joke about his other women every now and then. But he did say once that none of the othere are as hot or intelligent as me  I think him saying that just once was an important factor in my being fine with it
But when i was looking for a serious relationship, i wouldnt go out with a guy if i thought he was dating other women same time as me.

[brad5959]

Aloe,

I think that is the problem, the OP is not willing to commit to dating just one of the many ladies, and he is not even willing to tell her (Anna for example) that she is indeed beautiful, or even buy her a small present such as three roses.  how should any of them feel willing to kiss etc. to move forward in a romantic way?  why spend $4,000.00 and travel 8,000 or so miles, just to go on multiple casual cafe and zoo dates, without ever narrowing it down to one or two and having at least a small progress towards romance?? the whole exercise just seems like a trip of futility.  why not stay home in Monterey California and go on multiple small dates and get rejected by all?  what is the difference? there is just no sincerity in all of this game/frame controlling attempts.  I think the women involved can see through it.

a man has got to be willing to be sincere and vulnerable and serious and committed to win a woman's heart, or at least to move forward in that direction.

[Gator]

Frankly ive never been on a date that was going well and was THAT short (2-3 hours), if its good, it lasts many hours, the fact that he cuts a good date short alone shows he has some other women. That does not go well with my definition of a guy that has a potential to be faithful.

But when i was looking for a serious relationship, i wouldnt go out with a guy if i thought he was dating other women same time as me.

Aloe,

What if TBB's goal for this 16-day trip was to find just one woman among the many, and then concentrate solely on her after the trip? He would not expect intimacy on this trip, yet would feel enough positive vibrations to make his decision.  His next trip would be WOVO with just her.  What would you feel about such a man, assuming he had good breath and the rest of your list?

Based on your nearly 1000 posts, you impress me as a "top drawer" life partner, perhaps ideal.  You should rank high on every sane man's list. Your two quotes above illustrate the major disadvantage with WMVM meetings with top drawer women.  Most refuse to go from meeting a VM man to real dating to an intimate relationship.  Perhaps a semi-desperate woman would accept it; however, top drawer women don't.

I did three WMVM trips in six years, yet avoided concurrent dating.  It was serial dating, meeting only one woman in each city and while there focusing only on her.  And I did not discuss other women.  Some still felt the same as you.

 

[Gator]

Really? I dont know what it sounds like to other women, but to me it sounded like it was her mistake that she regretted, what is he supposed to do, shes married with kids, why does getting on with his own life make him a bastard? She had her chance and blew it, long time ago.

Very interesting! 

On one hand, TBB is a "strong" man.

On the other hand, TBB does not forgive the woman who meant the world to him, then hurt him, and later came back dramatically on her knees begging forgiveness and acceptance.

You prefer the "strong man."  Another example of this thing that RW have for strong men.

[Misha]

Frankly ive never been on a date that was going well and was THAT short (2-3 hours), if its good, it lasts many hours, the fact that he cuts a good date short alone shows he has some other women. That does not go well with my definition of a guy that has a potential to be faithful.

That is a good point. It is one of the disadvantages of having more than one date planned for the same day. My date first date with my wife lasted over six hours. We went to a cafe at 10pm and talked until 4:30. We only really stopped talking because my wife had to work later in the morning and had to go home for at least a few hours to sleep and get ready for work. Did not have any problem getting a kiss when we parted and had already set our second date later that day