Novosibirsk Doesn't Believe in Tears: TwoBit's Sixteen Days In Novosibirsk

[Misha]

I think Anna was/is the best so far in his mind, but she just didn't knock him for a loop. 

Sometimes that takes a day or two to figure out 

[tim 360]

Absolutely agree with Vinny here... and I also alluded to this earlier in the thread...

I think Anna was/is the best so far in his mind, but she just didn't knock him for a loop.  They had pretty good chemistry, yeah, but either he's not telling the whole story or she just didn't make him feel the "paint her name on the water tower" syndrome.

To the contrary, I just don't think he knocked her for a loop.  She may not be that attracted to him.  I really don't think there is the strong mutual attraction as Vinnyvinny mentioned.  

Also, she may find a few dates with a foreigner who, is in Novo for a couple weeks Ok ---a curiosity--and I'm sure she is smart enough to realize he is seeing other women in Novo.  I don't think that would motivate her to give-it-up to him.  I'm sure plenty of local guys also would find her of interest and she may see no reason to let him kiss her.  And then there is the "game" frame thing which a smart chick will pick-up on. 

[Misha]

I'm sure she is smart enough to realize he is seeing other women in Novo.  I don't think that would motivate her to give-it-up to him.

She did. When she called him after their first date proposing a second date and he turned her down, she knew immediately that he was seeing other women. She then, IMHO, put him in the: "I will wait for him to come back and beg for me to take him seriously as I am clearly the hottest woman he will meet on his trip" category of men  :evil: 

[ECOCKS]

The only question I have at the end of Day 10 is how you feel about the list which was built before arriving.

Looking back at all the "nothing there" and "so it goes" sort of comments, can you think of anything you wish you had or had not done in assembling the dance card of gals you THOUGHT you would be attracted to when meeting?  What lessons or thoughts are twirling in your head amidst your fatigue?

[Jooky]

Frankly ive never been on a date that was going well and was THAT short (2-3 hours), if its good, it lasts many hours, the fact that he cuts a good date short alone shows he has some other women.

I have to agree with this and was going to mention it before. The date scheduling is really tight. I can understand it because of your time constraints. If a date doesn't go well, you don't want to be stuck with a wasted evening. But... if it does go well, you don't have the freedom to prolong that date in a natural fashion. A good date, especially on a weekend, can go on and on and on.

That does not go well with my definition of a guy that has a potential to be faithful.

This illustrates one of the differences between dating in Russia versus dating in the SF Bay. A well off, well dressed, in shape man in his late 30s still has to prove that he 'has game' to attract women in the SF Bay. Being mysterious is cool and women are more ready to chase rather than be chased.

In Russia, it’s assumed that a man in this position has women. The burden is to prove that you don’t if you want a young woman of ‘high value’ to consider you a serious prospect for marriage.  Being mysterious just confirms their suspicions, and regardless of the lack of good men or whatever, I think high value Russian women are more accustomed and willing to be chased than to chase.

A few years ago I committed a dating miscalculation in Novosibirsk. I didn’t have much work one week so I lined up a bunch of dates. They all went well and all the girls wanted a second date. This would have been ok, but…

That weekend was Women’s Day. I’d forgotten about that, and I had already set aside the day for dear friend of mine.  Whatever woman wasn’t my date on Women’s day was at best a number two choice. None of these women were looking to be a number two, so that was that.

Just like we discuss things here on the forums, these ladies are discussing and getting input from their friends, family and possibly forums as well. These girls don’t have a clear picture of what you’re doing in Novosibirsk. The most likely scenario in their mind is that you’re a married dude having a few weeks of fun. You need to work that out of their minds and your actions (not being available, ignoring SMSs) are speaking louder than your words.

One the one hand you have many choices, and it’s good to meet as many girls as possible. On the other hand, these aren’t agency girls that are used to the drill of an American guy lining up trial dates in order to make a selection by the end of the trip.

It’s a tricky situation for sure!

[Misha]

I think high value Russian women are more accustomed and willing to be chased than to chase.

Yes, and the thing is that Anna took a major hit to her pride when she called him for a date and he turned her down.

None of these women were looking to be a number two, so that was that.

Pretty much. My wife would NEVER have put up with being number 2 at any point in our relationship.

[I/O]

I/O aren't you pretty offended about this?

Devastated. 

[tim 360]

She did. When she called him after their first date proposing a second date and he turned her down, she knew immediately that he was seeing other women. She then, IMHO, put him in the: "I will wait for him to come back and beg for me to take him seriously as I am clearly the hottest woman he will meet on his trip" category of men  :evil: 

That's it.

[Sculpto]

Many (most) of the women in FSU who are on dating sites are also registered with some marriage agency.  So not a sure bet to conclude that Anna has not had experience there also.

ummm no.. there are at most 150,000 girls on marriage sites.. and mamba alone has what 6-7 million ladies..

[brad5959]

Yes, and the thing is that Anna took a major hit to her pride when she called him for a date and he turned her down.

Pretty much. My wife would NEVER have put up with being number 2 at any point in our relationship.

Bingo!!!

[TwoBitBandit]

Reflections on the trip so far

I decided to first try this method (dating off mamba.ru) last year.  I was simply tired of agencies and the girls in them.  After my last trip using an agency (early 2007), I became so frustrated that I didn’t do anything to look for a RW for over two years.

Last year I simply picked a city that look convenient to go to and started writing lots of girls.  I was actually surprised by the pull I got: lots of attractive women wrote back and were interested.  I realized I could go and meet them, make accommodation arrangements myself, speak to them in Russian, and there would be no agencies!  Commandment #3: “Work to eliminate any agency from your communications” wouldn’t even apply.  I was almost giddy.

Changing the topic: I realized that most of the dating advice I had received in my life was just bad advice.  The advice I had received from women was particularly awful.  It certainly wasn’t malicious: the women I received advice from liked and respected me.  They just don’t understand the reality of the dating market for men in urban centers and how female hypergamy affects it.  When women give dating advice like, “you should bring a girl flowers” or “you should always call her back right away,” what they mean is “I want the high-value guy that made my heart flutter, seduced me and then didn’t return my calls afterward to bring me flowers and call me back.”  The error is to take the advice at face value.  The trick isn’t to return phone calls or deliver flowers.  The trick is to be the man that women want to deliver flowers.  They don’t want every dork begging for a date to start bringing flowers.  A dork bringing flowers without generating attraction first just looks like more of a dork.

I didn’t really start to understand all my errors with women until I started to seek out men who were successful with women: who were either players or had long-term relationships with high-value women.  In particular, men who were dorks in high school but had cleaned up their acts were particularly helpful.  They’re not hard to find if you look for them.  If you befriend them they’ll give you good advice.  Like anything else in life (and including reading boards like this one), half the work is in recognizing good advice and ignoring bad advice.  The major fraction of the dating advice floating around in the world is simply not useful.  Once I started to hang out with such men more socially, apply the advice I got and use what I’d been reading in books, I had more dates than I really wanted to go on.  And at the point, you can start to be cocky and picky, which only makes it easier.

A lot of the advice in the “pickup community” is oriented toward picking up skanks in nightclubs.  And as Blues Fairy pointed out when she read the comments in the “Dave from Hawaii” link, there’s some pretty vile people and mindsets in that community.  Nevertheless, I found it helpful to adopt a lot of the underlying principles: (a) never supplicate (b) you’re the prize, not her (c) control the frame (d) act confident at all times.  In Silicon Valley now, I’m dating mostly girls in their late twenties that I couldn’t have caught when I was in my late twenties.  (As I write this, I want to go back in time and beat the living snot out my twenty-two year old self.  I swear, I’m going to make it a hospital job just so that idiot gets the point wises up.)

The dating market has changed tremendously in the last twenty years.  The whole “I’m the solid provider” frame is just dead in places like Silicon Valley.  With that frame and two quarters you can call your mother from a pay phone.  It’s kaput.  I sometimes have conversations with older guys (like my father’s generation, the guys who tried to impress girls by burning their Vietnam war draft cards) who have been married for a long time about the dating culture, and I don’t think they even believe me.  It’s been so long since they were dating twentysomething girls that they just don’t see the cultural shift.  In the seventies and before, the “I’m the provider” frame was a perfectly viable sales pitch.  The “hookup culture” didn’t seriously start until the eighties and nineties.  The “pickup community” is a predictable response to men seeing that the battlefield has changed a lot and shifting to the new reality.

Jooky made an excellent comment about the difference in dating cultures.  In the western world, having a man isn’t really that important.  If you’re a reasonably attractive woman you can always find nookie.  There’s all kinds of unequal legislation such as affirmative action policies and sexual harassment laws to make it easier for women to make money.  Marriage 2.0 and Divorce 2.0 favor women.  And the state will tax the crap out of man daring to be a productive member of society to form a safety net for bastard children.  In Russia, those protections don’t really exist: there is a real and severe cost for picking the wrong man.  So, the “solid provider” frame (like in the fifties in America) is a perfectly viable frame to get high-value women… and the “cad” frame is something to be feared.

Not having been in Russia for a year, I’ve almost forgotten how much easier dating is here once you actually get here.  The girls don’t have the bitch shields that they have in the United States.  They act like women should act.  I can certainly understand the point that people are making by saying that I’ve been overplaying my hand by bringing a Silicon Valley dating style to Siberia, and there’s a point there.  It’s just simply not necessary to generate attraction in women.

Gator made an interesting comment earlier in this thread: some minds are “analytical” and want to see all of the options before making a choice.  And I can definitely see that trend in how I’ve acted in this search and in other areas of my life.  Yet, I’ve met enough of these girls to recognize a great one when she comes by.  On my trip last year I came across one that I really liked.  And after a couple of days together, I did exactly what many on this board recommended: I proposed that we try to spend as much time as possible together before I left.  She declined this invitation, and I think that all that it did was scare her off.

So, I tried the opposite thing this time, I continued to date other girls.  As I liked Anna more, I started to clear more time off my calendar and put her first.  Perhaps I waited too long to make that decision, but I also need to feel some clarity about her before making a decision.  There’s no real guarantee that if I had adopted the previous strategy it would have worked out differently.  If right after my first date with Anna (or at the time she called) I had cancelled all of my other dates and saw only her that it would have changed the result.  Maybe it would have still resulted in me losing the frame and being wrapped around her finger a little bit, with the only difference being me having fewer options lined up (and thus better wrapped).  Those of you who think what I did was a mistake may have a point and may even be right, but it’s still speculation.  I also strive to keep my commitments: so if I tell Oksana I’m going to meet her at a certain place and time, I don’t cancel that just because I’m hot for Tatiana.  That’s just the way I roll, if I say I’m going to do something I do it.  I had already set up the dates with other girls before I left the United States, and I wasn’t going to cancel them just because Anna asked and I was into Anna.

There have been some comments in this thread of the form “high value women won’t stand for second place.”  Yet, as I spend more time with women and understand the dark side of their behavior better, I’m still unconvinced.  There was a sub-topic in this thread about “pre-selection”: about whether having a high-value woman make you more attractive to other women.  I still contend that it does.  (If you take a cute girl to a gathering of people it’s way easier to meet other cute girls.)  Women are still women in any country, and I contend there is something in the psychology of women that attracts them to high-status men who already have other women (all other things being equal).   But that may have less value in Russian dating culture, where someone seen to be a “player” is of less mating value than in Silicon Valley.  In Silicon Valley most of them want the player even though they say they don’t.

One of my character traits is being a bit stubborn.  Or “a strong man” as Gator diplomatically put it.  (Gator, can I hire you to give me some lessons in diplomacy?  You’re friggin’ brilliant!)  This trait is both helpful and a hindrance.  It was certainly helpful in getting my university degree, when I was taking a full class load of technical math and physics courses while working thirty hours a week to pay my way without help from anyone.  It was certainly in helpful in speaking Russian, where stubbornness helped me keep on a schedule of studying a few hours a week for over five years to get to the point where my Russian outdid a professional English teacher’s English a couple of nights ago.  On the other hand, I’m also sometimes slow to change my opinion.  And perhaps the “you lost Anna because you played games” bat that some of you are hitting me over the head with is valid.  I’ll give you this: you’re making my gears turn a little.  I’m just not completely sold yet.

I’m starting to see the downside to this approach.  The girls I’m dating are just normal Russian girls living a normal Russian life and dating Russian guys by normal Russian dating conventions.  As Gator said earlier, most of them haven’t thought through or been schooled on how short time is, and how fast these relationships need to advance in a short time for them to be viable in the long term.  Trying to get them into that frame (as I found out with Irina on my last trip and Anna on this trip) is simply a difficult sell.  And I sort of get that, since the “I’m serious and I want you” frame sounds a lot like the “I’m desperate” frame if you haven’t thought through or been schooled on the difference.

I "get" and applaud that but the real question is, what is the "intent of the trip"?

You’re not the only one who’s asked that.  On my first trip to meet a girl I thought, “I’m a serious guy, and I shouldn’t meet multiple girls.”   So, I flew to Russia to spend ten days with the girl.  In the end, it didn’t work out.  The reasons why it didn’t work out were visible on our first day together and painfully obvious by day four.  Yet, she was a serious girl, and I was a serious guy.  We really tried to make it work.  But in the end it wasn’t meant to work, and it was painful for both of us.  That’s when I started to see the value of visit-many.

I would have really liked to convert Anna or Irina into a visit-one trip once I decided I was into them, but it just didn’t work out that way.  I hadn’t necessarily expected to convert to a visit-one trip here: my mindset is that this is a scouting mission.  If I find a great match then I can have a better correspondence after I leave since we’ll have already met, and then start to talk about a visit-one trip.

I am open to the possibility of finding a partner on this trip, but I don’t feel like I’m on a mission to get married.  In fact, I’m enjoying my single life more than I ever have before.  If I leave Russia empty-handed and without any prospects, I’ll still be satisfied with result.  I’m having fun in Russia and improving my Russian.  What else could I be doing with my vacation?  Hawaii?  Been there, done that.  Paris, London, Barcelona, Rome, Amsterdam?  Been there, done that.  Tokyo, Hong Kong, Sydney, Auckland?  Been there, done that.  Club med in Cancun and Turks and Caicos?  Been there, done that.

I’m writing about what I’m doing because I hope it will be helpful for others to understand this search and its pluses and minuses.  Perhaps somebody will take my approach and decide to modify it to suit them and it will be successful for them.  Or perhaps they’ll decide to not do what I’m doing and stay in the shallow end of the pool where the agencies are.   Or maybe it won’t affect anyone’s behavior in any way.  Or maybe it will just be interesting for people.  In fact, I’m certain it is interesting since you’re still reading it on page fourteen.

[Misha]

TwoBit,

I am happy to see that you are enjoying yourself. That is good. My only advice is to avoid extremes. You don't have to stick it out with one woman when there is not chemistry and you don't have to go on a dating marathon either. It is possible to find a middle ground. That middle ground IMHO is as follows: date women until you find one worth pursuing, one where there is reciprocal chemistry and interest, and then focus your energies on her.

Also, if you ever decide that you truly want to get married, my advice is to take your "frame" and chuck it out the window  It may be good for dating in California, but it will likely land you either a desperate woman in Russia or worse a woman who will have more game than you with a less than noble agenda 

Just some thoughts from a shy introvert, still a dork at heart, who married a wonderful woman without game and frame, a woman who is certainly out of my league 

Good luck and enjoy the rest of your stay in Russia!

Misha

[I/O]

this is a scouting mission

For what?

[I/O]

One thing I don't get, really I don't, as I note this, it is approximately 2.30 in the afternoon, 22c mid summer in Novosibirsk and you, a single guy, are sitting in chat on RWD. You have to be kidding me. Cripes, there would be 20 possible hot dates out front of the main railway station without even worrying about websites etc. You so called hardened VM guys don't seem to have much stamina.............

[brad5959]

the shallow end of the pool where the agencies are??  depends on the agency as well as the woman.  there are plenty of good women in bad agencies, and vice versa.  a good fisher can extract the good fish out of the bad agency.

[Gator]

TwoBit,

Golf day here so I have little time.

What you call stubbornness is more about the perseverance to follow your well thought out plan for achieving a dream.  It is the best way, provided one analyzes the interim information and makes adjustments.  After being involved with a few RW and marrying one, I now have a deep understanding of what constitutes stubbornness. 

Misha makes a good point.  More than one RW has told me that when they meet a man they like, they focus their energies on him and no others.  They stay with him as the relationship progresses.  The relationships ends only if he walks away or severely screws up.  Definitely not a career AW.  However, this will change as RW become more independent with a growing economy and a socially evolving culture.

[Gator]

the shallow end of the pool where the agencies are??  depends on the agency as well as the woman.  there are plenty of good women in bad agencies, and vice versa.  a good fisher can extract the good fish out of the bad agency.

I would agree if you said "good" rather than "bad" agency.  Fishing in a "bad" agency can easily get you devoured by a shark.

Perhaps TwoBit prefers a challenge woman who will leave only for love vs.  a woman already committed to leave her country with any man who meets at least half of Aloe's criteria (good breath, good teeth, etc.).  Nevertheless, there are plenty of high-value challenge women listed with marriage agencies. 

A challenge woman, is not low hanging fruit.  They require time for which there is no substitute.

[brad5959]

I consider Anastasia Web to be a bad agency, with probably a lot of good women.  I enjoyed Kievstar's clever way of extracting his wife from them.  I also extracted a nice woman from another questionable agency.  I think that overlooking agencies alltogether is not the best choice, however to each his own.  there's more that one way to accomplish the mission.

[TwoBitBandit]

Day 11: Tuesday, July 6

I spent the morning and the early afternoon dealing with a technical problem back at work.  As I write this it appears to be getting solved.  VPN and skype-out for the win.  I brought headphones for my computer out here and it’s been helpful being able to call the around the world.

In the mid afternoon I go by the bank to get money.  The same ATM machine that has always worked for me suddenly doesn’t work with my card.  Side note to guys coming to the FSU: I’ve had a couple of instances where a particular bank’s card doesn’t work in the FSU even though the symbols match and you called the bank in advance to tell them you were going to the FSU.  No amount of calls to call-center idiots can fix it.  It’s just a cursed card or a cursed bank.  On this trip, one of my cards just doesn’t work and I couldn’t get it resolved after six calls to the bank.  (But another bank’s card worked…until today)  So, if you’re coming to the FSU, be sure you have a “money backup plan” if your card doesn’t work.  Maybe that’s another card or two, perhaps it’s bringing extra cash, perhaps it’s someone on-call in the US that can send you money, whatever.

I have to go to the post office to send a package that a brought here as a favor for a Russian I know in the United States.  I spend about an hour and twenty minutes at the post office collecting various stamps and bits of paper required to send a package and standing in different lines.  I guy a met at the post office named Andre helps me figure it all out and tell me which lines to stand in and what papers to collect.  The Russians don’t like that I have an American passport, but Andre helps negotiate on my behalf.  It turns out that Andre worked in America on the summer work program that lots of Russian used.  He lived in Florida somewhere for three months.  Eventually I get everything settled and the package is done.  This same operation at my local post office would taken ten or fifteen minutes, or even less if there was no line.  Russians love all these official-looking stamps, signatures and little forms.  I don’t know why.  It’s a cultural thing.

By the time I get out it’s about 5:40.  I go to meet my six o’clock date.  My six o’clock date with Maria is a disaster.  I don’t even want to talk about it or why it happened, that’s how bad it was.  It’s over quick.  So it goes.

I text Evgenia to tell her I can meet her early.  We end up meeting slightly earlier than expected, at 7:45 vs. 8:00.  I kiss her as we meet.  We go for a short walk.  I’m hungry since I don’t have much food in the flat, and after a short negotiation we try a Uzbek restaurant she knows of.  (How many times do you get to try Uzbek food in the United States.)  I ordered some kind of lamb soup and three of some kind of meat in a pasta casing that is sort of like an oversized pot sticker.  We both get a glass of wine.  She ordered a salad and some kind of Uzbek dessert that was sort of like a caramel-flavored pudding.  It was pretty good.

I enjoy my time with Evgenia.  She’s upbeat and just a pleasure to chat with.  Like our first meeting and on our phone conversations she giggles a lot.  She insists that she doesn’t ALWAYS giggle, she’s quite capable of being serious, thank you very much!  We talk about the normal date stuff… music, parents, jobs, culture, travel, poetry, Russian culture, etc.  I just feel very relaxed with her and I’m just enjoying the time we have together.  I’m attracted to her, but I also feel like I’m hanging out with a good friend of mine.   I’m attracted to her and she’s attracted to me, but it’s a very sort of relaxed attraction.

I’ve dated a lot of these Russian girls (and also done my share of online dating in the US).  Sometimes people either just don’t photograph well or just don’t use good photos.  Evgenia wasn’t that high on my list of potential candidates, but now I like her a lot.  She’s cuter in real life than in her photos.  It’s girls like her that make it worthwhile to cast a wide net.  In real life, sometimes the girl is better than the photo and sometimes she isn’t.  It’s just such a mixed bag.

She has to get up at 7 am in the morning.  We talk about work schedules and I tell her that I get to set my own work schedule, and I’m usually in at the early hour of 11.  (She giggles.)  Her giggles aren’t nervous, she’s just how she is.  It’s very cute.  I offer to see her off, since I won’t see her again.  She’s leaving on some sort of family trip.  I kiss her once when we get to the bus station, and then again as the bus stops.  This is what a good date should be like.

[GQBlues]

One of the things about life is as you get better at something you get the opportunity to participate in a higher league.  This applies to anything: universities, careers, sports, etc.  And it definitely applies to girls.  As you climb each level, the playing field gets more complicated and the competition more fierce.  What worked at level  one will be counterproductive at level three.  I can sense that I’m making some mistakes where I am, but I’m often not sure what the right action is.

I'm a bit late on this thread as the weekend's been hectic, TBB (Happy 4th). But I can understand your response above and if that's good with you, then I'm jiggy wit'it..

FWIW, regardless where you and Anna end up with (and I'm hoping you do succeed) based on what you decided to do - had I been walking the streets of Novo in your shoes, I would've chilled down a bit with her and let her make the move on me.

To me, it's never been the women I lost, it's always the women I've yet to win. So I never waste my time on silly mind games women play. I just assume they play with the next guy and wish her luck.

When all is said and done, never forget, dating is an art. It is not science. IMO, you seem to put too much structure into your new learned process.

[Daveman]

Day 11: Tuesday, July 6

...  This is what a good date should be like.

EvGENia EvGENia!  heh... go Cha-Cha girl!!

Yes indeed... that relaxed attraction, easy fun communication...  a woman like that tends to grow on you until you don't realize she's already stolen your heart. 

Anyway, glad the day went from hell to pretty darn good and you had a great date with her.

[kievstar]

TBB, I enjoy your posts and think your doing an excellent job.  Based on what you wrote I do not see any future Mrs. TBB from the girls you met so far.  My advise would to write down what you like from the girls you have met so far and than find one that meets those requirements. 

People should also listen to Aloe she maybe young but very wise in her knowledge.  VM is a good approach but you know when the right one comes along and you do not want to VM anymore.  TBB and manlooking have not met the right one yet. When you meet the right one you do not go out with other women.  Many men never meet the right one and marry out of ease.  VM is a great approach but in the end if your serious about marriage it is VO. 

I have asked a couple of times has a man on this board juggled there wife for several months with other women before marriage and did the marriage work out? 

[Daveman]

What's funny to me is that there are 14 pages of Tips, Tricks, and How To's, psychological evaluations, monday morning quarterbacking, armchair drama -- some sincerely trying to help and others derisive...

However, he has a really cool date and...... virtual SILENCE! 

 

TBB, just post something about that train wreck date.. we need the action! 

[Misha]

However, he has a really cool date and...... virtual SILENCE! 

Perhaps, some of us have ascertained that TBB is capable of having cool first dates. I am waiting to see how he will transition from first to second date  However, it may have to wait until the next trip 

[Daveman]

Perhaps, some of us have ascertained that TBB is capable of having cool first dates. I am waiting to see how he will transition from first to second date  However, it may have to wait until the next trip 

Heh.. that WAS their second date...   but anything else with that one will have to wait for another trip..  darn... I really like Evgenia..  if he doesn't feel the sparks from her I'll have to change my age requirements and head over to Novo so I can be rejected as an old geyser by a girl pointing and giggling!