Novosibirsk Doesn't Believe in Tears: TwoBit's Sixteen Days In Novosibirsk

[OlgaH]

I have to figure out the different between мат and мать and лож and ложь through context, and can't pronounce the difference at all. 

OK, "мат and мать" is understandable but we don't have such word as "лож" and we pronounce "ложь" as [лош].   

[ML]

Even if it is not what I would do, . . . .

Have you counted up the number of times you insist on saying this?

[Seeker]

Have you counted up the number of times you insist on saying this?

It seems some think only their own perspective is right.  I like to try to remind myself and others, that we can only speak and decide for ourselves.

And I am trying to tread a neutral ground. 

I don't insist on saying anything.  Some here know I think differently on some things.  But I don't deny others to do it the way they think is best.  Even if I disagree and think it wouldn't be right for me.

And without the disclaimer, it would become a fight about me/you and our personal views, not a discussion about the thread.

Seems simple to me... acknowledge you/I are not the almighty holders of all knowledge.  Allow others to find their own way.

I admire TBB for taking the risk to tell us what is happening, and take our crap.

[JohnDearGreen]

the OP is not getting laid, he is not even getting past first base.  he has been on these forums for 9 years.  the game/frame NLP methods are hurting his chances as the women seem to see through this Junior High School routine and the lack of sincerity, unwillingness to make romantic comments, show affection with traditional small romantic gifts and unwillingness to be exclusive.

I suppose most prefer the VO trip where the guy and gal jump into the hotel bed, love at first sight, and live happily ever after, or for a couple of years anyway...

The only necessary objective of his VM trip is for TBB to get enough face-to-face time to determine if the lady is workable for him or not.  Ladies are known to change their minds, so whether or not she is sold on him right now is not necessarily a deal breaker.  Making a commitment during the trip can actually be a negative.  

There is plenty of time for talk and skype and telling her she is his one-and-only after he gets back home.   He can even keep emailing and skyping 2 ro 3 ladies and delay the decision even longer until his next trip which would probably be a VO .  It is very common for the lady to lose interest totally after the man leaves town, or after a few emails.   That happened to me after my first VM trip.

[Misha]

The only necessary objective of his VM trip is for TBB to get enough face-to-face time to determine if the lady is workable for him or not.

She might decide that he is now workable for her 

[OlgaH]

a macho man with tons of women running after him...

A simple translation for "macho" from Spanish is самец    "macho cabrío" - козёл, "macho romo" - мул.  

[brad5959]

I suppose most prefer the VO trip where the guy and gal jump into the hotel bed, love at first sight, and live happily ever after, or for a couple of years anyway...

The only necessary objective of his VM trip is for TBB to get enough face-to-face time to determine if the lady is workable for him or not.  Ladies are known to change their minds, so whether or not she is sold on him right now is not necessarily a deal breaker.  Making a commitment during the trip can actually be a negative.  

There is plenty of time for talk and skype and telling her she is his one-and-only after he gets back home.   He can even keep emailing and skyping 2 ro 3 ladies and delay the decision even longer until his next trip which would probably be a VO .  It is very common for the lady to lose interest totally after the man leaves town, or after a few emails.   That happened to me after my first VM trip.

well, I'd rather jump into bed with one lady and get laid rather than endure two weeks of mental masturbation.  but that's just me.

[Jooky]

the OP is not getting laid, he is not even getting past first base

He passed on a few opportunities where I'm sure the girl wouldn't have declined an invite to go back to his flat for some fun. If he wanted to be more of a player, I'm sure he could have been, but that wasn't the purpose of his trip.

the lack of sincerity, unwillingness to make romantic comments, show affection with traditional small romantic gifts and unwillingness to be exclusive.

I agree about the romance, but disagree about the gifts. If a girl is not that into you (or not into you yet) a gift isn't going to push things in the right direction. Some guys do establish relationships based on (often expensive) gifts, but I don't think that's the type of relationship TwoBit is looking for. (And those are the type of nightmare relationships a man should avoid, in my opinion).

[OlgaH]

“Game” is the art of generating attraction in women....  If a man wants a woman in his life for a night, a year or a lifetime, he obviously must generate attraction in her.  

[/quote]

That is exactly what some Ukrainian and  Russian men study in the pick-up artist schools along with changing their underwear every day.

An entertaining Ukrainian article: "Ukrainian pick-up artists learn to change their underwear and socks
http://www.segodnya.ua/news/12056483.html

"Vova from Belarus who signed up for the pick-up artist training after his 40s gave up drinking and married a young beautiful woman"  

disclaimer: "pick-up artists" article doesn't concern the OP.

[Sculpto]

the point is that game/frame NLP methods are not working.  what works is real sincerity, being affectionate and romantic, and a willingness to be exclusive.

I did find a woman on my first trip to Ukraine which was WOVO.  she invited me to stay in her flat so it was a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship right away.  is she the one?  I don't know, that is undecided.

a WMVM trip can work if eventually you pare it down and become exclusive.  otherwise it is just MM and ZNS.

Whats your point Brad?  Sorry but your comments are really negative.  Big deal.. you found a girl on your wovo.. my first trip wasn't even to look for women and I found one.. a really awesome one.. and things fell apart afterwards because of distance and communication issues.. finding.. mating.. keeping.. and getting together in the same place are all different and highly complex steps.

TBB had an awesome adventure.  He was kind enough to share it in a thought provoking and rather respectful way.  I have in the past been extremely critical of how men have written about wmvm because their TRs sound more like shopping trips and sex tourism than experiences with individual and unique personalities.  TBB wrote in a way that is in fact respectful of the ladies and more than self reflective enough. 

And quite frankly.. the fact that he chose not to gt laid says a lot about his character and his seriousness in finding the right lady.  I tell you.. where I live.. I can go out every night if I want.. and find a different sex partner.. but.. that isn't going ot cure my longing.. on the contrary it will make it worse.  It wouldn't be hard to do the same in the FSU if that is the goal.  It takes a lot of self control to be the gentleman TBB was on this trip.

I also suspect that in the next few weeks/months.. TBB will find out from the girls which one really rises to the top.  See.. that is how game works and in the case of the FSU where people have a tendency to really live in the moment.. now that they realize his time was in fact limited.. some of those ladies are going to understand they want more.

I think he handled it perfectly.

Hats off to TBB for the best TR I can remember reading.

[OlgaH]

I appreciate and respect honest, constructive feedback. 

I just have a question... talking about honesty what do you think would happen if you honestly told the girls about your scheduled dates and "games"? or at least about scheduled dates? 

[brad5959]

Whats your point Brad?  Sorry but your comments are really negative.  Big deal.. you found a girl on your wovo.. my first trip wasn't even to look for women and I found one.. a really awesome one.. and things fell apart afterwards because of distance and communication issues.. finding.. mating.. keeping.. and getting together in the same place are all different and highly complex steps.

TBB had an awesome adventure.  He was kind enough to share it in a thought provoking and rather respectful way.  I have in the past been extremely critical of how men have written about wmvm because their TRs sound more like shopping trips and sex tourism than experiences with individual and unique personalities.  TBB wrote in a way that is in fact respectful of the ladies and more than self reflective enough. 

And quite frankly.. the fact that he chose not to gt laid says a lot about his character and his seriousness in finding the right lady.  I tell you.. where I live.. I can go out every night if I want.. and find a different sex partner.. but.. that isn't going ot cure my longing.. on the contrary it will make it worse.  It wouldn't be hard to do the same in the FSU if that is the goal.  It takes a lot of self control to be the gentleman TBB was on this trip.

I also suspect that in the next few weeks/months.. TBB will find out from the girls which one really rises to the top.  See.. that is how game works and in the case of the FSU where people have a tendency to really live in the moment.. now that they realize his time was in fact limited.. some of those ladies are going to understand they want more.

I think he handled it perfectly.

Hats off to TBB for the best TR I can remember reading.

my point is that he may have lost an opportunity with Anna and others because he was so concerned about being in control.  he did not return her call in a timely fashion because he wanted to have the upper hand.  like Misha pointed out, she was showing that she really liked him by calling him.  many women will not call a man, they expect the man to take the initiative.  all of the attempts to control game/frame was probably detrimental to his chances.  why spend $4,000 to go to Russia but refuse to buy a lady some flowers and a small present to show your affection??  why refuse to acknowledge that a lady is beautiful, if indeed as he stated she looked hot?  if you care about a lady you have to be willing to tell her and to show her that you are serious about her.  I doubt if he will have any further relationships with any of these women.   

[Seeker]

my point is that he may have lost an opportunity with Anna and others because he was so concerned about being in control.  he did not return her call in a timely fashion because he wanted to have the upper hand.  like Misha pointed out, she was showing that she really liked him by calling him.  many women will not call a man, they expect the man to take the initiative.  all of the attempts to control game/frame was probably detrimental to his chances.  why spend $4,000 to go to Russia but refuse to buy a lady some flowers and a small present to show your affection??  why refuse to acknowledge that a lady is beautiful, if indeed as he stated she looked hot?  if you care about a lady you have to be willing to tell her and to show her that you are serious about her.  I doubt if he will have any further relationships with any of these women.   

He chose to 'play the game' his own way.

He will live/learn from it his own way.

[Sculpto]

my point is that he may have lost an opportunity with Anna and others because he was so concerned about being in control.  he did not return her call in a timely fashion because he wanted to have the upper hand.  like Misha pointed out, she was showing that she really liked him by calling him.  many women will not call a man, they expect the man to take the initiative.  all of the attempts to control game/frame was probably detrimental to his chances.  why spend $4,000 to go to Russia but refuse to buy a lady some flowers and a small present to show your affection??  why refuse to acknowledge that a lady is beautiful, if indeed as he stated she looked hot?  if you care about a lady you have to be willing to tell her and to show her that you are serious about her.  I doubt if he will have any further relationships with any of these women.   

Its not for you to speculate one way or the other.  Every situation is different, every person is unique, generalizing about FSUWs is about as smart as eating fish from the gulf.

[Daveman]

... refuse to buy a lady some flowers and a small present to show your affection??  why refuse to acknowledge that a lady is beautiful, if indeed as he stated she looked hot?  if you care about a lady you have to be willing to tell her and to show her that you are serious about her.  I doubt if he will have any further relationships with any of these women.   

I'm with Brad on this one... not necessarily as it pertains to TBB here.. but in general.  I wouldn't buy an "interested in and wanna take it to the next level" woman a flat, or a porsche, or diamonds (damn Debeers!).. but how in the name of all that is spermicidal is giving flowers (or some small gift... especially a thoughtful one) to a woman in whom you are interested some kind of "training program for future bad behavior"?  Yeah, attempting to buy affection rarely works out well, but man, I feel like I'm been teleported to the Dating Twilight Zone where the zombies are wondering aimlessly chanting "I ain't buyin' nuttin'... bad behavior "

Here in the south, tokens of interest and/or affection are an absolutely natural part of gentlemanly courtship.  No ass kissin', submission, bitch training, or whatever involved, it's merely surprising someone you like.

[Jooky]

my point is that he may have lost an opportunity with Anna and others because he was so concerned about being in control.

When he first posted about it, I thought the same. But...

After thinking about it some, maybe he did himself a favor. I'll explain. I'd never heard the use of 'frame' like this before, but I understand it as a 'frame of mind'.

So TBB is in the frame of mind that he wants to be 'the man' in a relationship. He wants to lead and be in charge. Her frame of mind might be that she wants a man wrapped around her finger. The way she teased and flirted with him but then refused a simple kiss makes it seem that way to me. Despite whatever compatibility and chemistry they had, they're not on the same page. TBB could have given in to her game and maybe got laid. But in the long run, I think he's better off finding someone who's on the same page or 'frame'. He hasn't cut off contact with Anna, so only time will tell.

[I/O]

In the latter posts, aren't you guys getting personality confused with methodology? To buy or not to buy flowers, to call or not to call, to compliment or not to compliment, game or no game, control or no control are IMO about ones personality. Careful forward planning to call prospective dates (consistently) 1 day, 10 days or whatever in advance, emailing or not emailing, planning to meet 3 per day or whatever, finding them on Mamba vs EM etc etc are about methodology.

[Patagonie]

the OP is not getting laid, he is not even getting past first base.  he has been on these forums for 9 years.  the game/frame NLP methods are hurting his chances as the women seem to see through this Junior High School routine and the lack of sincerity, unwillingness to make romantic comments, show affection with traditional small romantic gifts and unwillingness to be exclusive.

Dear Brad even if your sincerity seems to be perhaps a little rude i must say that i agree.

[Patagonie]

the point is that game/frame NLP methods are not working.  what works is real sincerity, being affectionate and romantic, and a willingness to be exclusive.

I don't agree. Game raise your worth, is more playful, more funny, speed the emotionnal state of the girl AND (both) if you give her affection, little gifts, be romantic and engage you in exclusive way you are a real winner. You can be a player and make both, there is no fundamental opposit between those things. Again the A3 phasis is the key of this topic, not in a technical manner, but more as a philosophy, enhanced by the fact that the courtship for a marriage after few meetings, impose to avoid for a large part the "i'm  hard to get way". The state of the art is to convey it in an implicit way because you are and no because you show it (and i'm less experienced than a lot of guys but it seems that RW don't like superlative). OP thank for a true TR.

[Patagonie]

80% sincerity and 20% game is probably workable.  at some point you've got to commit to being exclusive and be willing to get your heart crushed.  no pain, no gain.

In certain way we are not so far 
But i would say :
sincerity is sincerity you cannot master it, you are or you aren't.
But in time you can decrease frame (better word rather than game here) and increase your authenticity (a way to reward her for her attention --> it's game  ok i go out ! )

[Patagonie]

I just have a question... talking about honesty what do you think would happen if you honestly told the girls about your scheduled dates and "games"? or at least about scheduled dates? 

Because you think really girls told us  how many boys they have in contact, and how many they schedule to meet, and what they do with local man ? Girls are the queens to manage their relationship from their fourteen, do you know what is the name of this state of art ? Game.

[chivo]

FWIW, I'll chime in with my final thoughts. I hope that you don't find it too negative as I thought you did the majority of things right, just not the most important things. It's also a TR that many can/should find useful.

I think your plan basically is a good one, one that lowers the chance of failure and one that many should be doing if they could (only won't for whatever reason), but like any plan in this adventure its a work in progress.

Nevertheless I thought the execution was bad. It just seemed to me that you did what most will do when you can date a lot of girls here a la av8tor; looking more for reasons to move on than to stay. You're too quick to dismiss. It happens here more often because there's always another RW waiting in the wings, and lord knows she could be even better . I live here, I know how it is. I have also read what you have written here in your TR which confirms this.

You also need to up your "game" because as it stands now you can only handle the fastball, once they threw you a curve, you whiffed. Do you think they're stupid?  And yes as of this time they owe you nothing. You know the language well enough but have more to learn about the mentality here, it's one area your 'game' sorely lacks. There are subtle differences that can make or break a situation that are different from dating in America.

You have to better learn how to be emotional when they're wanting it from you, and how not to be emotional when they're playing their games, which they most surely will. Not an easy balance for a man. If you can't emotionally handle their games, you have no chance with them; none. It plays into them wanting to know that you won't bail at the first sign of trouble in the relationship, fold like a house of cards when faced with really tough decisions, or quickly move to someone else like the average RM they can have at home.

Most 24yo RW and older are serious about finding a GOOD man. They may want a career also, but a man is definitely high on the agenda. At that age they've been through enough guys already and are looking to settle. Having sex here is way too easy, they want much more than that.

Unfortunately you don't have much time, I understand, but still chemistry takes time. You also have spread yourself much too thin and 2 weeks is not enough time to date many girls effectively this way. Not even close. I'm sure you know this now if you didn't know it before. Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes.

You will no doubt think a lot about what you did and didn't do on this trip. I suggest again, next time, think less with your head and more with your heart. Then it won't matter much what you say or do in terms of your "game" because your heart will be talking; and women respond to this, especially these women, trust me. Good luck.

[brad5959]

Here in the south, tokens of interest and/or affection are an absolutely natural part of gentlemanly courtship. 

I can hear Rhett Butler's voice now...pure magic.

[brad5959]

When he first posted about it, I thought the same. But...

After thinking about it some, maybe he did himself a favor. I'll explain. I'd never heard the use of 'frame' like this before, but I understand it as a 'frame of mind'.

So TBB is in the frame of mind that he wants to be 'the man' in a relationship. He wants to lead and be in charge. Her frame of mind might be that she wants a man wrapped around her finger. The way she teased and flirted with him but then refused a simple kiss makes it seem that way to me. Despite whatever compatibility and chemistry they had, they're not on the same page. TBB could have given in to her game and maybe got laid. But in the long run, I think he's better off finding someone who's on the same page or 'frame'. He hasn't cut off contact with Anna, so only time will tell.

let's be polite and say that he gives into her and maybe makes love with her.  at this very moment is when he has the best chance to lead and be in charge.  as long as he is being honest and faithful with her (ie exclusive), she is most likely to want him to take charge and lead at that point. 

[Jooky]

she is most likely to want him to take charge and lead at that point

Hmmm... I'm not convinced about this. It could also be the moment she fully takes charge and has him wrapped around her little finger.

I guess the only way to find out is for TwoBit to go through with it and let us know what happens.