Cannabis.. yes or no

[Sculpto]

I would ask the mods to keep a close eye on this thread.. if it gets acrimonious please just lock it up. I would ask everyone else if you plan to participate to keep your comments polite.. its a hot topic and some might be tempted to go directly to insult.. lets all avoid it please and have a sincere and mature debate about what really is an important topic.

I will start off in the next post..

[Sculpto]

So my personal feeling is this plant provides a myriad of positives.. the medicinal or recreational consumption is in my view nothing but positive.  The by products that can be produced from the plant are extraordinary.. the fabric and oils are superior to almost anything else that they can be compared to.

I do not understand the bias against the plant.  From what I can see mostly it is due to propaganda and decades of brainwashing.

There is considerable debate about how FSUWs feel about it.  My experience is they are no different than western women on this topic.. some like it.. some dont.. most don't care one way or the other.

So.. there we have two questions to debate... lets keep it polite ok?

[SMS60]

I dont see 2 questions

Please reframe the questions.

Also, where you deprived attention in your childhood? 

[Shadow]

As you might know I am originating from a country where the use is not fully prohibited, and this means that I have a clear perspective on the subject.

Smoking cannabis will broaden certain limits within your nerve system. As a result you geet the "high" feeling and are feeling less pain. With this comes a lowering of your reactions and judgement, as the neural speeds are slowed down.
By itself the effect is different from alcohol in that it numbs down outside influences, meaning you are less likely to react agressive under the influence of cannabis.

There are some adverse things that have to betaken in to consideration.

First of all the production of cannabis is when compared to tobacco rather expensive, and will remain so even if produced in industrial environment which would be needed in case of legalizing. When taxed equally, cannabis will become a very expensive product, and there is not a single government on earth that will legalize the use without the ability to get taxes from it.

Second, the use influences your ability to think clearly and operate machinery. When in moderation the effect is temporary, however when used heavily this effect is lasting, even if the user totally quits the habit. Upon legalizing, either the factories or the government will have to answer this responsibility from users to avoid claims.

Finally, the effects in long term on health are only at a beginning stage of being documented. However I personally know people who are or have been heavy users, and know it has affected them severely. Similarly the people who know about production seem to be divided in two categories. Users who are not fir to do anything else to earn money and those who will never use cannabis but have clear minds on how to earn from production.

My personal vote on the subject is negative for legalizing fully.
A system as currently present in Holland, with some minor improvements is as far as any government should go. This means that if you use it in your own home, pay all bills for growing and do not bother anyone, you can do what you want.
Try to make a living out of it, selling it in large quantities or driving a car under influence should still be strictly prohibited.

[kievstar]

If I drink a lot and smoke pot I end up getting sick.  You also end up in the woods in Crimea hunting Nazi's.  See my trip report from a year ago for more details on Nazi hunting.  So in my hand on experience pot makes me do strange things.  So I vote no on legalization unless USA gets tougher crime laws and puts the death sentence in place in all states.  You do drugs and kill someone you die as well.  Would like this in place for alcohol as well. 

[Admin]

So my personal feeling is this plant provides a myriad of positives.. the medicinal or recreational consumption is in my view nothing but positive.  The by products that can be produced from the plant are extraordinary.. the fabric and oils are superior to almost anything else that they can be compared to.

I do not understand the bias against the plant.  From what I can see mostly it is due to propaganda and decades of brainwashing.

There is considerable debate about how FSUWs feel about it.  My experience is they are no different than western women on this topic.. some like it.. some dont.. most don't care one way or the other.

So.. there we have two questions to debate... lets keep it polite ok?

Eric,

LOL - you are going to make me regret the PM I just sent you. Please check your PMs and reply.

Next - please articulate the relevance of your topic to the theme of RWD. There may be a thematic connection, but it is absolutely not apparent in your OP.

If not connected to RWD's theme in some way - don't you think there are better venues for posing this question? I am, of course, assuming you are interested in sincere discourse and are not posting the topic simply to use as a foil to advance an agenda.

OK. Awaiting your reply to my PM and response here.

- Dan

[ECOCKS]

The medical evidence is clear that pot is at least as impairing as alcohol and as damaging to your health as tobacco. I'd just as soon suck on a car exhaust and eat out of used ash trays as smoke it.

As mentioned above, the penalties and assessed responsibility for causing harm while under the influence of substances like these need to be tightened even more to make it clear that those who wish to indulge themselves pay a price for screwing up and hurting others. No sympathy here for DUI/DWI whiners.

As for the long term health effects, this is one more common sense reason that healthcare should remain an individual choice and cost. Making others pay for the stupidity of your decisions is arrogant and socially irresponsible.

As for it's impact on FSUW, as said, a [very] few use it (depending on whether you are dating children or responsible adults of course) and I suspect that more often than not it's a turn-off with at least as much distaste as many westerners view it.

[acctBill]

I think that if this thread attains a large number of posts it's going to be a case of most of the American posters voting for no legalization and most of the Canadian and European posters voting for either decriminalization or legalization.  Never really been a user of pot, except for a few joints in my mispent youth but then again I don't smoke and think smoking is a really stupid habit.  I also don't drink much, special occasions only. 

Pot's probably no worse than alcohol but then again do we need more drivers under the influence on our roads?  The pot plant however does have a number of commercial benefits and it is a very renewable resource so overall its benefits may outweigh its problems.  If it came to a referendum I'd probably vote in favour of legalization.

[BillyB]

I do not understand the bias against the plant.  From what I can see mostly it is due to propaganda and decades of brainwashing.

Everyobody who thinks differently than you is brainwashed? Open your eyes to what goes on in life sometime. It's not propaganda.

First of all the production of cannabis is when compared to tobacco rather expensive, and will remain so even if produced in industrial environment which would be needed in case of legalizing. When taxed equally, cannabis will become a very expensive product, and there is not a single government on earth that will legalize the use without the ability to get taxes from it.

When drugs are expensive, people will resort to desperate means to get their hands on enough money to satisfy their craving. There are people who are in and out of jail half their life after getting caught stealing. I work in construction and I don't work with the finest people in the World so I've come across a lot of stories on how some people support their drug habit. Is going to work the solution to earn money? Sometime they commit crimes to fund their habit. Legalizing a drug will not reduce the criminal means some people use to afford the product. Drugs affect other people in negative ways beyond the user.

Second, the use influences your ability to think clearly and operate machinery. When in moderation the effect is temporary, however when used heavily this effect is lasting, even if the user totally quits the habit. Upon legalizing, either the factories or the government will have to answer this responsibility from users to avoid claims.

Marijuana affects the mind unlike cigarettes or caffeine. Legalizing it will give people the impression it's okay to drive after using it and cause more deaths on the road. Some of you disagree because there's enough education out there warning against people doing it but it's mostly the young people who'll make the mistake. Even 2012isFiction is promoting the fact that smoking a good quality joint sharpens the senses which would mean the warnings given are propaganda. Either 2012 or top medical scientists in the industry are wrong. Because there are clearly people who believes smoking weed sharpens the mind and the current education and warnings out there are propaganda, they will get in their car and drive and work. Don't ever think a warning label on a pack of joints is going to stop people from using it and driving.

Before seat belts were mandatory, America lost more people every year from drinking and driving than they did during 10 years fighting the Vietnam or Gulf wars. Now we lose half as much due to stiffer laws and penalties. Laws against a product that hurt society does do good.

Finally, the effects in long term on health are only at a beginning stage of being documented. However I personally know people who are or have been heavy users, and know it has affected them severely. Similarly the people who know about production seem to be divided in two categories. Users who are not fir to do anything else to earn money and those who will never use cannabis but have clear minds on how to earn from production.

It's clear what some long term health problems are going to be. Any type of smoke that is inhaled on a regular basis reduces the oxygen intake and smoking regularly over time will hurt the lungs performance. Poor performing lungs shortens the life of other organs in the body.

People who smoke on average are not only less healthy, they are less productive employees on average. Smoking weed on the job will further hurt productivity and the industry of a nation. It will open up a new wave of lawsuits from accidents at work occurring from those impaired. If an employee comes into work drunk, we could identify him/her easily by the way they walk and smell and would tell them to go home before they get themself or another person hurt. An employee who's high will not be as easily identified since they aren't as impaired as a drunk and some chewing gum can cover their breath. They're slower reaction time and poor mental state of mind will certainly contribute to accidents.

My personal vote on the subject is negative for legalizing fully.

There will always be criminals. Legalizing drugs will not take criminals off the street or reduce the violence in other countries. If we legalize weed, criminals are still going to find a way to make money illegally. They may step up human trafficking or import/export stronger drugs at increasing levels. They may even create a new type of weed laced with powerful hallucinogenic drugs that our government wouldn't sell but customers will get addicted to and buy. Then what? We legalize those more powerful drugs and human/sex trafficking to get those criminals off the street and reduce violence in other countries again?

[groovlstk]

My wife and I were on a sailboat cruise in the Caribbean in April, and on our last night it got really rough and my wife became seasick. The doc on board gave us some tablets (I believe they were dramamine) but said they probably wouldn't work since they needed to be taken beforehand.

Long story short: Groov scoured the ship bow to stern and returned to the cabin with only a joint - donated by a sympathetic marine biologist from Italy. It did the trick though, and she was able to relax afterwards and even had me grab her a sandwich later on from the kitchen.

So what does she do less than 30 minutes after we arrived home? Phone her mom to excitedly tell her about our vacation - including a long interlude about her reefer madness. Mom wasn't too happy but I'll worry about that next time I fly to Moscow  Evidently my days of corrupting the innocent aren't yet behind me.

[Sculpto]

Dan.. for me the question is relevant here specifically because there is considerable difference of opinion on how FSUWs feel on the topic.  I can tell you with no exaggeration that about 35-40% of the ladies I have communicated with have stated they have either tried it, would like to try it, or don't care one way or another. 

Most everyone will dispute that claim.. but I know what I know and i know what i saw and experienced inside Ukraine and Russia.  And that was easy availability and an open attitude not only about cannabis but with a lot of other substances.. which are specifically not the subject of this thread.  Russia may now have the highest number of heroin addicts in the world per capita but there is nothing about heroin addiction that I can advocate as a positive.

Eric,

LOL - you are going to make me regret the PM I just sent you. Please check your PMs and reply.

Next - please articulate the relevance of your topic to the theme of RWD. There may be a thematic connection, but it is absolutely not apparent in your OP.

If not connected to RWD's theme in some way - don't you think there are better venues for posing this question? I am, of course, assuming you are interested in sincere discourse and are not posting the topic simply to use as a foil to advance an agenda.

OK. Awaiting your reply to my PM and response here.

- Dan

[Sculpto]

Also, where you deprived attention in your childhood? 

Are you incapable of keeping the discussion polite and without insult?

[Sculpto]

If I drink a lot and smoke pot I end up getting sick.  You also end up in the woods in Crimea hunting Nazi's.  See my trip report from a year ago for more details on Nazi hunting.  So in my hand on experience pot makes me do strange things.  So I vote no on legalization unless USA gets tougher crime laws and puts the death sentence in place in all states.  You do drugs and kill someone you die as well.  Would like this in place for alcohol as well. 

Kiev.. you are 100% right.. someone who is already drunk and then smokes is going to have a very bad affect.  They just don't mix well and it shouldn't be done.  Frankly.. one of the reasons I gravitated to weed instead of alcohol was that alcohol really messes with my system and weed doesn't.  Also, just a little too much alcohol and all of a sudden a rational person can turn into a complete moron... a little too much weed and rational people fall asleep.

You are right about operating cars though.  There is no excuse for DUI and people get off way to easy for it in the USA.

[KenC]

2012,
Now this may surprise you, but I am all for legalizing weed.  And, yes, I have a California "medical" card too.  Not that I buy all the smoke you blew up our collective azzes in the other thread.

I do think that weed gets a bad rap and has gotten it for a very long time.  I was going to say since the mid 60's, then I thought about the film "Reefer Madness" and realized it has been even longer.

As far as the "medical" uses, I believe they are limited at best.  The best medical argument IMO is to help cancer patients maintain an appetite.  Yes, it will help you sleep but no better than benadyrl or relax you, but is among many alternatives to that cause.  In all honesty, weed is just a very cool high and lowers ones inhibitions.  (take that as you may)

Does it impair driving? Yes, it does but not as much as drinking IMO.  You might get a ticket for driving too slow, but it does impair your reaction time too.

From my experiences, RW are much more informed or experienced with hash than with weed.
KenC

[Sculpto]

Lots of talking points here.. thanks for posting Shadow..

As you might know I am originating from a country where the use is not fully prohibited, and this means that I have a clear perspective on the subject.

Smoking cannabis will broaden certain limits within your nerve system. As a result you geet the "high" feeling and are feeling less pain. With this comes a lowering of your reactions and judgement, as the neural speeds are slowed down.
By itself the effect is different from alcohol in that it numbs down outside influences, meaning you are less likely to react agressive under the influence of cannabis.

Actually you are not exactly accurate about the impact of the "high".  But that really depends on the strain and the quantity consumed.  Regular smokers are not likely to experience it the way you describe and I am sorry I can't really explain it better than that except to say that its just different than you think.

There are some adverse things that have to betaken in to consideration.

First of all the production of cannabis is when compared to tobacco rather expensive, and will remain so even if produced in industrial environment which would be needed in case of legalizing. When taxed equally, cannabis will become a very expensive product, and there is not a single government on earth that will legalize the use without the ability to get taxes from it.

You can't tax what I can easily grow at home.  However.. in the way the California legalization is shaping up there will be adequate ways to tax the direct sale of commercially produced cannabis and of course the side industries will produce significant tax revenue. 

It is already a very expensive product.. about half the current price of gold for the same weight.  However.. in the case of California.. legalization for medical purposes has allowed much greater competition and far lower risk and so what has happened is the quality has improved and the price has dropped.  It is a prolific plant and when illegal was mostly grown indoors but with legalization can now be grown outdoors.   An indoor plant that produced $1000 wholesale with less effort as an outdoor will produce $5-7000, at the lower per pound prices as compared to the $1000 from pre legalization days.

Second, the use influences your ability to think clearly and operate machinery. When in moderation the effect is temporary, however when used heavily this effect is lasting, even if the user totally quits the habit. Upon legalizing, either the factories or the government will have to answer this responsibility from users to avoid claims.

Thats silly Shadow.. I know guys that are daily wake and bake that work with machinery daily and have all their fingers intact.  If you have some statistical proof instead of opinion it would be useful.  However, I do not think you do because its a spurious claim.

Finally, the effects in long term on health are only at a beginning stage of being documented. However I personally know people who are or have been heavy users, and know it has affected them severely. Similarly the people who know about production seem to be divided in two categories. Users who are not fir to do anything else to earn money and those who will never use cannabis but have clear minds on how to earn from production.

Again I think you are exaggerating.  Take my own health for example.. I do not drink and I am slightly overweight.. I smoked tobacco for the last 14 years but did quit five weeks ago.  My blood pressure is perfect.. andi have no major or minor conditions except back problems which was caused by being a cabinet maker.. not smoking weed.  Furthermore.. more and more people now use "vaporizers" instead of old fashioned joints and bongs because with the vaporizer there is no smoke inhalation but only pure cool vapor of THC.  The affects on the lungs are actually theraputic and cleansing as opposed to smoking cigs.. there is no accumulation of tar or resin in the lungs.  Also, more and more people are consuming via edibles.. however.. this is really more appropriate for people who are really sick because the affects are considerably stronger and last a longer time.  However, I can say the last time I really threw my back out.. the doc gave me muscle relaxers and tylenol 3.. I dropped them after one day because they didn't help.  One green cookie did the job perfectly though and i was able to lay in relative comfort and more importantly I could sleep.

My personal vote on the subject is negative for legalizing fully.
A system as currently present in Holland, with some minor improvements is as far as any government should go. This means that if you use it in your own home, pay all bills for growing and do not bother anyone, you can do what you want.
Try to make a living out of it, selling it in large quantities or driving a car under influence should still be strictly prohibited.

You have it almost right.. the problem as I see it.. as long as it remains illegal in any form there is both a class of otherwise good citizens who become criminalized and you retain the incentive for criminal levels of production and distribution.

The law as written in California currently for medical growers prohibits profiteering.  It allows reasonable compensation.  But, a legal grower can only provide for a very limited number of patients and is supposed to know them all personally.  Some of the bigger dispensaries are right on the verge of going too far though and there is a certain "vibe" which I don't like and I do not patronize them because of it.  The place I do go is 100% medical and professional.  It is also an interesting coincidence that the owner is a 1st generation Russian immigrant.    And a rather nice guy.  Frankly it is really nice to be able to go into a clean shop that feels like an old fashioned apothecary and make a clean transaction and use my credit card to pay rather than how it was 15 years ago going to the park and dealing with thug like guys and hiding from the police. 

[Sculpto]

Ken I am not surprised.. I am more surprised when people are against it.

About driving.. I really wish I could find that issue of road and track from a few years back.  Basically you have professional drivers who used a slalom course and a timer to determine the positive or negative impacts on their performance.  The results surprised everyone. 

I can also tell you.. way back in the day when I was an active member of the SCCA.. there are a surprising number of now famous race drivers that are pot heads.. none of them would advocate smoking right before a race.. but the night before????  I can also tell you.. it was at the race track where I had my first experiences with weed.. and some other things.. surprised?

About medical uses.. the oil is awesome for a lot of things.. and is way more affective than other balms without it.. 
smoking or eating.. well.. you know.. given the choice between a chemical produced by any number of corporations and approved a marginally efficient and potentially corrupt FDA.. i will go with all kinds of herbal medications before products produced by the pharma industry.. across the board.. cannabis is just one herb.  In SF.. the Chinese apothecary is an awesome place to visit and I frankly have much greater trust in their medicinal practices than I do in the hospital factories we have.  So, my point is.. cannabis is one of an array of plants that can be used for a variety of medicinal purposes.

I have not encountered hash in the FSU which actually surprised me. 

2012,
Now this may surprise you, but I am all for legalizing weed.  And, yes, I have a California "medical" card too.  Not that I buy all the smoke you blew up our collective azzes in the other thread.

I do think that weed gets a bad rap and has gotten it for a very long time.  I was going to say since the mid 60's, then I thought about the film "Reefer Madness" and realized it has been even longer.

As far as the "medical" uses, I believe they are limited at best.  The best medical argument IMO is to help cancer patients maintain an appetite.  Yes, it will help you sleep but no better than benadyrl or relax you, but is among many alternatives to that cause.  In all honesty, weed is just a very cool high and lowers ones inhibitions.  (take that as you may)

Does it impair driving? Yes, it does but not as much as drinking IMO.  You might get a ticket for driving too slow, but it does impair your reaction time too.

From my experiences, RW are much more informed or experienced with hash than with weed.
KenC

[Sculpto]

Ed.. more than anyone in this forum.. you could use a toke..   I suspect it would be a life changing experience for you.    (a positive one)

The medical evidence is clear that pot is at least as impairing as alcohol and as damaging to your health as tobacco. I'd just as soon suck on a car exhaust and eat out of used ash trays as smoke it.

As mentioned above, the penalties and assessed responsibility for causing harm while under the influence of substances like these need to be tightened even more to make it clear that those who wish to indulge themselves pay a price for screwing up and hurting others. No sympathy here for DUI/DWI whiners.

As for the long term health effects, this is one more common sense reason that healthcare should remain an individual choice and cost. Making others pay for the stupidity of your decisions is arrogant and socially irresponsible.

As for it's impact on FSUW, as said, a [very] few use it (depending on whether you are dating children or responsible adults of course) and I suspect that more often than not it's a turn-off with at least as much distaste as many westerners view it.

[Sculpto]

Did you say something Billy?  Wait, Ed.. I take it back.. Billy could use a toke much more than you...

[Shadow]

Sculpto as you know laws are pretty liberal here.
My observations are from direct experience with people who use pot, and also I have some friends who can supply you with anything you need for growing... except the plants as they are illegal 

BillyB while I agree with your link between drugs and criminality, the catch is that in the Dutch situation prices are a lot lower, meaning even a very high user will not spend more than someone who smokes two packs of sigarettes a day.
The criminal issues rise more from trying to grow by using stolen electricity.

[Gator]

Also, where you deprived attention in your childhood?

Are you incapable of keeping the discussion polite and without insult?

2012, I believe SMS60 was simply making a sarcastic joke.  Lighten up.

Shadow, your following theory seems to be wrong.

 

By itself the effect is different from alcohol in that it numbs down outside influences, meaning you are less likely to react agressive under the influence of cannabis.

[BillyB]

Thats silly Shadow.. I know guys that are daily wake and bake that work with machinery daily and have all their fingers intact.  If you have some statistical proof instead of opinion it would be useful.  However, I do not think you do because its a spurious claim.

2012, you have the belief that good quality weed will sharpen the senses and it's okay to operate heavy machinery. Nobody is going to change your mind. There are many people like you that will point to articles or a study that comfirms your belief. Regardless of what the law states or what is required as a warning on a pack of joints if it ever becomes legal, there will be people who ignore those warnings simple because they have a different belief. Who pays for an impaired driver who makes a mistake? Who pays for someones funeral costs? Who pays for lost time on the job? Everyones insurance rates go up too.

If marijuana has medical benefits, it should be controlled by doctors who already control most medicines that can be abused to the point of doing more harm than help. Putting more and more control into non medical professional hands such as the common citizen is asking for trouble.

If you owned a business where your employees drive company vehicles often or heavy machinery, would you let them drive after they smoke a joint in front of you? If they have an accident, do you think you won't be liable if they hurt themselves, other people and/or property?

[Sculpto]

ahh just call me Sculpto.. Im gonna switch back.. the X is well Xed.  I don't care what she reads if she reads and if she reads this.. she knows where she can put it.. hahaha..

Anyway..

Back in the days of prohibition people were shooting each other over the production and distribution of alcohol.  Prohibition ended and so did the violence associated with the business of alcohol.

The same conditions exist today with cannabis and other substances. 

Because in most places it is a felony to merely possess you are making felons out of otherwise ordinary people. 

Don't get me wrong at all.  I have literally no tolerance for crack heads.. meth heads.. junkies.. coke heads.. and even find ravers who have done too much "E" to be rather annoying though mostly harmless.  I really can not tolerate drunks.. especially the kind that live at a bar and get in your face with their stinky breath and jokes that aren't funny. 

But weed is just different.  Its negatives are so minor compared to its positives that I find them inconsequential.  5 weeks ago I quit smoking cigs.  The first three days I was really manic.  the only thing that helped with the cravings was taking 100% cacao.. bitter.. unsweetened.  I busted up a big bar and when I got a craving I would pop one piece and let it dissolve.  That knocked the cravings cold..  But.. the cacao did nothing for the manic feeling i had.  Seriously, in those three days if someone looked at me funny I would have ripped their head off.  Except.. on the second day.. when I was really thinking I was going to lose it.. I went and got a green cookie from the dispensary and ate half of it.  I spent the rest of the day tranquil and got a lot of work done on the computer updating my site and doing billing.  I felt no "buzz" but I was relaxed and calm.  100% natural.  Someone said.. why not just take a prozac.. I said.. 100% natural.  I did the same on the third day.. after that I returned to my normal "only a little manic" which I can manage with willpower and an occasional cup of chai. 

[BillyB]

Back in the days of prohibition people were shooting each other over the production and distribution of alcohol.  Prohibition ended and so did the violence associated with the business of alcohol.

Are there any statistics that show the deaths after prohibition were less than the deaths due to violence of a few during prohibition? All I know is that drinking and driving alone kills more Americans than wars and if you look in the past 100 years, America goes to war a lot. There are other related deaths due to the effects of alcohol. Some related to failing livers, others due to domestic violence. Although most people need at least one drug in their life, alcohol being the main one, I think prohibition saved lifes even with a few criminals fighting for the right to sell the stuff.

[Sculpto]

Billy I said I know guys who do that.. I didn't say I approved of it.  

Back when I was in art school.. and spending most of my time in the wood shop.. the faculty of the wood shop and i were really close friends.  We smoked weed together frequently.  But, he had one unbreakable rule.  NEVER come into the shop "loaded".  I never did and I never do.

Now.. if you compare the current rate of alcohol caused death by auto with the same question of weed caused death by auto.. the difference is staggering.  Not that I am advocating, but, your position is not born out by the facts.

So, before you attack weed as the next killer of Billy and his Mom from the tumbling SUV.. lets speak about facts and not myths.  

In california to have a medical cannabis card you must have a doctors evaluation.  Not all doctors will give them.  Even doctors that heavily advocate for the medicinal benefits will turn down people they think are only in it for the fun.  The medical card must be renewed annually and requires an additional evaluation each time.  Most dispensaries will cut you off if they think yo are buying too much.  One of the things that really impressed me at the festival a couple of months ago is how professional and thorough all the dispensaries were in evaluating peoples papers and cards and in having people fill out their own documentation to get the free samples.  It wasn't like they were just handing stuff out.. you had to join their coop and to join you had top provide proof and that proof is not so easy to fill out.  There are in fact a lot of people I know who refuse to cooperate with the legalization system because they are afraid of the government being in possession of this personal and private information.

so.. that brings up another point and this one is going to be highly charged.  A lot of you guys are either republicans or libertarians.  You believe in less government interference in our lives.  Yet, here you are advocating for keeping a naturally occurring plant illegal and for what amounts to government interference in a very personal decision.  So, how do you justify that?

Also.. can anyone tell us the current status of legality for small amounts of cannabis in Russia and Ukraine?

2012, you have the belief that good quality weed will sharpen the senses and it's okay to operate heavy machinery. Nobody is going to change your mind. There are many people like you that will point to articles or a study that comfirms your belief. Regardless of what the law states or what is required as a warning on a pack of joints if it ever becomes legal, there will be people who ignore those warnings simple because they have a different belief. Who pays for an impaired driver who makes a mistake? Who pays for someones funeral costs? Who pays for lost time on the job? Everyones insurance rates go up too.

If marijuana has medical benefits, it should be controlled by doctors who already control most medicines that can be abused to the point of doing more harm than help. Putting more and more control into non medical professional hands such as the common citizen is asking for trouble.

If you owned a business where your employees drive company vehicles often or heavy machinery, would you let them drive after they smoke a joint in front of you? If they have an accident, do you think you won't be liable if they hurt themselves, other people and/or property?

[BillyB]

so.. that brings up another point and this one is going to be highly charged.  A lot of you guys are either republicans or libertarians.  You believe in less government interference in our lives.  Yet, here you are advocating for keeping a naturally occurring plant illegal and for what amounts to government interference in a very personal decision.  So, how do you justify that?

You think it's a personal decision but think about it, with weed a personal decision can affect other people's lives. That's why government needs to step in. Although I don't smoke cigarettes, I don't have a problem with other people smoking because they affect pretty much themselves now. I think it was a good decision to ban smoking from places where the public gathers such as restaurants and airplanes. The problem with weed is that although one smokes in within their own home, it affects their mental state of mind and reaction times and you know they are going to go out and drive eventually hurting others. Between alcohol and weed, I agree with you that alcohol causes more deaths and more problems but they are both a drain on society. When people are under the influence of drugs, their productivity in whatever they do suffers.