Men marriage material

[Faux Pas]

There's a lot of comments about women met, more specifically in TRs that this woman or that woman isn't "marriage material". Well the same applies to men as well. Some men just are not marriage material either. This is usually determined by the ladies the same way it is determined by the men. I would venture to add that the ladies also make this determination by the men who insist on playing the field through some determination or qualifying period.

In most every relationship there is the chase, the hunted and the hunter. It seems many men in this pursuit really enjoy the hunt and the chase more than the capture and thus, stay on a continual chase praying and hoping subconsciously, that they never actually catch a woman. That would end the chase.

Many of these guys come to RWD telling of their experiences meeting multitudes of women as if it is a numbers game. Indeed to some degree it is a numbers game but, at some point if it does not turn into a one man/one woman it is strictly the hunt.

I do not wish for this to be another WOVO/WMVM thread but I am beginning to sense a number of guys and members here are enjoying the hunt under the disguise of looking for a wife. Let's face it, some men just have a rash of bad luck. Others are as inept at dating abroad as they are at home. Still others make multiple trips meeting 10, 20, 30 women per trip. There's nothing wrong IMO with going to the FSU to meet many women if that is what you are into. I'm not calling anyone out but, just to give a few of you the heads up, you will never find her if you keep looking for the next one.

For you guys, help me understand what you are running into and why so many no's and failures after meeting so many women. Please explain yourselves.

[ML]

As I reported, I met with 12 women and have decided to have subsequent meetings with 4 of those 12.  I didn't get a 'no' from anyone of the 12.

As far as I could determine, any and all of the 12 women would have already accepted a marriage proposal from me.

However, for me, I simply do not know any (including the 4) women well enough to be proposing marriage.  I don't even know the 4 women well enough to exclude 3 of them.  In subsequent trips, I will spend more time with the 4 women.  What will happen; who knows?

Caveat.  My situation may be somewhat different from many here.
I already had a long term fairly successful marriage and have great grown children.
So I hear no alarms going off re need to get married soon and produce offspring.

I have full empathy for those in other situations.

[Blues Fairy]

I get a feeling this thread is inspired by a certain TR of a certain poster.

[SMS60]

I cant answer for the VM crowd because I did not do VM trips but I did DM (date many) here at home in my wild single days. Based off this experience I was never looking for something serious, so juggling multiple dates was more like a game. Knowing this I cant imagine doing the same for a week in a foreign country and having anything of substance. It must be all a game or ego trip. Your emotions and feelings cant process all of the interactions in a reasonable way.

When you date multiple women it acts as a shield from any serious feelings. It keeps you from getting attached. You are always bringing in new emotions and feelings with each date which negate the previous dates affect on you. If you fear commitment this is the way to do it. Sometimes its done subconsciously. Its natural in some people. If I was to go to a local bar where I knew single people hang out I would see some of the same people who were there 3 years ago. They go out with the intentions of finding a relationship but it never happens. Most likely never will.

I also think the men who do this could not come close to doing it in their home city. They have trouble getting one date a month at home. Hence the trips to the east. Some will actually say it is easy to date in the east.....uuuummm. Tells me they strike out at home.

[Faux Pas]

I get a feeling this thread is inspired by a certain TR of a certain poster.

You would be mostly correct but, it is a question I have often wondered about. I can see where the thrill of the chase is as exciting as any other aspect especially to those who may not really want marriage. I guess it's fess up time, call it what it is, men can be serial daters and I have a feeling many of us are.

As I reported, I met with 12 women and have decided to have subsequent meetings with 4 of those 12.  I didn't get a 'no' from anyone of the 12.

As far as I could determine, any and all of the 12 women would have already accepted a marriage proposal from me.

However, for me, I simply do not know any (including the 4) women well enough to be proposing marriage.  I don't even know the 4 women well enough to exclude 3 of them.  In subsequent trips, I will spend more time with the 4 women.  What will happen; who knows?

Caveat.  My situation may be somewhat different from many here.
I already had a long term fairly successful marriage and have great grown children.
So I hear no alarms going off re need to get married soon and produce offspring.

I have full empathy for those in other situations.

I remember your recent TR. How many other VM trips have you made? IIRC, that was your first?

[GQBlues]

FP-

There really is more than one way to skin a khat. There's a multitude of personalitites, perspectives, beliefs, MOs, behavior, situations, etc..from the different men in this endeavor that the situation women will be faced with is in line with the situation men do. One only hopes to gravitate to those with more common grounds than not. Everyone has a plan and way of doing things. Men and women.

What's alien for me is actually making a trip, especially the first one, with marriage in mind. But that's just me as it doesn't mean it won't work with anyone else. Additionally, I won't believe for a minute the majority of these women will only correspond/meet/date one man at a time - you don' really believe that, do you?.

As for sex and money, fortunately or unfortunately, they're simply incidentals.

I am true believer of VM. IMO, how can one make the right choice if one never had choices to make it from to begin with? Besides, VM is really nothing more than a VO waiting to happen.

[ML]

I remember your recent TR. How many other VM trips have you made? IIRC, that was your first?

I have dated several women in Russia and Ukraine on previous business trips.  But all those dates were with women that I just happened to meet while I was there.  Then I was involved with an AW for several years.  (My long term marriage was before all of this).

My trip to Kharkiv where I met the 12 women was the first time that I planned a trip specifically to meet with women.

[Misha]

You would be mostly correct but, it is a question I have often wondered about. I can see where the thrill of the chase is as exciting as any other aspect especially to those who may not really want marriage. I guess it's fess up time, call it what it is, men can be serial daters and I have a feeling many of us are.

Personally, I couldn't stand first dates. The shallow banter just wasn't my thing. However, a first date would be even worse if you were constantly having to look at your watch fretting as to whether you will be late for your next date. How can you understand what a woman is all about if you are focused on the upcoming date. I, personally, don't understand it, but it may just be me. Personally, I saw dating as a necessary evil to meet women with the goal of developing a lasting relationship. Call it dating with "marriage in mind" if you will as I see no shame to being married or wanting to be married. The goal is to be lucid enough to understand whether or not a woman is right for you, knowing when to stop when you have found a good woman, and knowing when to run from some others before it is too late

[Faux Pas]

I cant answer for the VM crowd because I did not do VM trips but I did DM (date many) here at home in my wild single days. Based off this experience I was never looking for something serious, so juggling multiple dates was more like a game. Knowing this I cant imagine doing the same for a week in a foreign country and having anything of substance. It must be all a game or ego trip. Your emotions and feelings cant process all of the interactions in a reasonable way.

When you date multiple women it acts as a shield from any serious feelings. It keeps you from getting attached. You are always bringing in new emotions and feelings with each date which negate the previous dates affect on you. If you fear commitment this is the way to do it. Sometimes its done subconsciously. Its natural in some people. If I was to go to a local bar where I knew single people hang out I would see some of the same people who were there 3 years ago. They go out with the intentions of finding a relationship but it never happens. Most likely never will.

I also think the men who do this could not come close to doing it in their home city. They have trouble getting one date a month at home. Hence the trips to the east. Some will actually say it is easy to date in the east.....uuuummm. Tells me they strike out at home.

Seems our experiences were very similar. I dated many and often but, rarely two at the same time although it did happen. I didn't even give it a lot of thought before my first trip, I knew I wasn't a WMVM even though I didn't know what I was, I knew it wasn't that. Personally, a VM trip strikes me as too clinical where as I like to let things happen.

[groovlstk]

For you guys, help me understand what you are running into and why so many no's and failures after meeting so many women. Please explain yourselves.

I had about a dozen trips under my belt before I met the woman who is now my wife. In 2006, there were a lot fewer comments in TRs from the peanut gallery about dating strategies and what constitutes gentlemanly behavior, so I was spared the (unfounded and rude) accusations that dogged others, like Av8tor.

Regardless, I always thought something so important would take as long as it should take and not a moment less. Ironically, I think most men err in the opposite direction by boxing themselves in with a timetable. Plenty of guys with moderate incomes plan for a trip and maybe even a follow-up, but they're already in quicksand even if they haven't looked down since their "success" is tied directly to filing that K1 after one or two trips. On my last trip I had a timetable too, in that if things didn't work out I was done with all this.

[ECOCKS]

FP:

Unfortunately, I reached this conclusion (guys using the guise of seeking a wife) several months ago.

To one extent, I've seen this for years but hoped that there might be groups where the percentage of "serious" seekers was high enough to keep the information valid and the discussions reasonable.

If you really want to see a slice of how the world views "men who look for wives in other countries" go to one of the expat boards and announce yourself the way some do here:

"I have decided to get myself a Russian or Ukrainian wife."

"Hi everyone! I am very excited to be talking to 12 wonderful ladies in Moscow and am about to come visit. Could someone suggest helpful information on lodgings, transport and places to visit?"

"I have been talking to a Ukrainian girl for 5 months now and am thinking about coming there to live a year or so. Anyone know where I can find work and how I should arrange my visa situation?"

Try it and consider their reactions and how one segment of the world views your endeavor. Read their forums about how tiresome they find the wifehunter and GF-seeker types.

RWD was just mentioned on one of these by one of those on both boards and some of the members dropped over for a look. You probably won't be thrilled with their reactions. Just remember, they live and work there (well, most of them) and, in fact many are married to UW and have FAR, FAR more experience dating FSUW than anyone on this board. While expats have their issues, they are part of the world you and your date/GF/fiance/spouse live in for better or worse.
 
Some expat boards:

www.redtape.ru - Russia

www.expat.ru - Russia

www.expatua.com - Ukraine

Have fun.

[Faux Pas]

I am true believer of VM. IMO, how can one make the right choice if one never had choices to make it from to begin with? Besides, VM is really nothing more than a VO waiting to happen.

GQ

I know you are a big proponent of the VM but, you actually swam the waters and came out on the other end with a wife. I am seeing more and more guys that just enjoy swimming the waters. Seemingly hoping they don't catch a wife. Those that do practice this subconsciously or not are not marriage material, are they?

I have dated several women in Russia and Ukraine on previous business trips.  But all those dates were with women that I just happened to meet while I was there.  Then I was involved with an AW for several years.  (My long term marriage was before all of this).

My trip to Kharkiv where I met the 12 women was the first time that I planned a trip specifically to meet with women.

ManLooking, the jury is still out on you. If you are still clinging to the notion of 4 women after another trip or two, you might fall into this category. I question however, why one of the 4 women was not worthy of being exclusive with on your next trip. It seems to me you are wasting valuable time. Not that time is the factor in your case but, if any of them are worth pursuing further why not start from that 1st trip?

[Faux Pas]

Personally, I couldn't stand first dates. The shallow banter just wasn't my thing. However, a first date would be even worse if you were constantly having to look at your watch fretting as to whether you will be late for your next date. How can you understand what a woman is all about if you are focused on the upcoming date. I, personally, don't understand it, but it may just be me. Personally, I saw dating as a necessary evil to meet women with the goal of developing a lasting relationship. Call it dating with "marriage in mind" if you will as I see no shame to being married or wanting to be married. The goal is to be lucid enough to understand whether or not a woman is right for you, knowing when to stop when you have found a good woman, and knowing when to run from some others before it is too late

I've always enjoyed first dates just as a precursor to getting inside a woman's head and getting to know her better. I would have no desire to get to know a woman better if I didn't see a second date happening and thus many first dates for me were disasters. The rest I heartily agree with you on.

[Misha]

thus many first dates for me were disasters. The rest I heartily agree with you on.

Yes, and that is why I saw first dates as a necessary evil.

[CanadaMan]

I get a feeling this thread is inspired by a certain TR of a certain poster.

Gee, that's really strange.
I thought I was the only one who came to that conclusion.   

[ECOCKS]

I've always enjoyed first dates just as a precursor to getting inside a woman's head and getting to know her better. I would have no desire to get to know a woman better if I didn't see a second date happening and thus many first dates for me were disasters. The rest I heartily agree with you on.

First dates involving shallow banter would be disappointing. I always tried to avoid dating anyone that would result in situations like this though they happened often enough along the way. Maybe this is a reason to get some things understood in your profile, emails, chats and videoing?

Get into her....head, did you say?

How refreshing.

[BillyB]

For you guys, help me understand what you are running into and why so many no's and failures after meeting so many women. Please explain yourselves.

A guy may have to date 20 women to find the right one to marry. Not just a good one, not just a compatible one, not just a fun one, or one with chemistry but the right one. The right one has the complete package.

I would not be surprised if Manlooking or Twobit didn't marry any of the ladies they visited. It's possible none of the ladies proved to be the right one for them. It doesn't mean they aren't capable of proposing marriage. It doesn't mean they failed.

I've been married once and engaged once. Most likely I will propose marriage for the third time in my life someday. That will be two times too much. Ideally a guy should propose marriage once in his life but the fact I've done it twice already proves I can pull the trigger to get married.

Because it's ideal for a guy to get married once in his life, is it so bad that he spends 3 or more years in the hunt for a quality lady? Most people here have already been married once. On the second go around we should be more cautious but we should also be wiser to spot a find candidate for marriage when we see one and not let that person get away. If we don't see the right one to marry, we should spend how ever long it takes to find the right one...not just anyone. If I'm going to marry again, I'm not planning for divorce and the lady I marry must be planning for the long haul too.

I'm going to Kiev next month and I will carefully evaluate the lady I'm meeting as a marriage candidate. With long distance romance we have a short time to decide so we have to date everyday and all day to learn about each other and to make a decision if we go exclusive or go separate ways.

When you date multiple women it acts as a shield from any serious feelings. It keeps you from getting attached. You are always bringing in new emotions and feelings with each date which negate the previous dates affect on you.

You say that as a negative. I say that is a positive. If a guy or gal can date multiple people and have a bigger pool of marriage candidates to choose from, they will most likely make a better choice. They will most likely pick the more beautiful, smarter, stronger candidate for marriage thus passing on good genes to their kids. Win win.

I've dated one woman at a time in the past and I've forced myself to like the woman in front of me because I had no other woman to choose from. I did not allow myself to look for another woman while dating one. I was dating one woman for months and years only to realize the inevitable that we were not made for each other. Lots of wasted time and I tended to ignore red flags and tolerated bad behavior in my younger days. If I had more choices to choose from, I could make decisions faster with each woman until I find the right woman.

Don't be bothered by the guys that post trip reports dating many women and coming up empty handed. They are in an important period of their lives to find a life partner however they see fit and it's too early to think anybody is a playboy.

[TwoBitBandit]

I get a feeling this thread is inspired by a certain TR of a certain poster.

I rese...rese...resemble that remark! 

[I/O]

the thrill of the chase

Ambition being greater than achievement, like having a "poop", once you've had it, you don't want it anymore.

[Faux Pas]

First dates involving shallow banter would be disappointing. I always tried to avoid dating anyone that would result in situations like this though they happened often enough along the way. Maybe this is a reason to get some things understood in your profile, emails, chats and videoing?

Get into her....head, did you say?

How refreshing.

I did. Unless I had some other "need" that took priority  Actually, yes, getting inside her head for me is what a first date was about.

[Faux Pas]

A guy may have to date 20 women to find the right one to marry. Not just a good one, not just a compatible one, not just a fun one, or one with chemistry but the right one. The right one has the complete package.

I would not be surprised if Manlooking or Twobit didn't marry any of the ladies they visited. It's possible none of the ladies proved to be the right one for them. It doesn't mean they aren't capable of proposing marriage. It doesn't mean they failed.

Billy you are missing the point. If any of these guys get on the holy grail for perfection, they won't find it. No woman is perfect or man for that matter. We all have imperfections, some more than others. After numerous trips and dates with multitudes of women at what point does the man say to himself, "hey, maybe the problem is me?"

Everyone is "capable" of proposing marriage. That doesn't mean he is in fact marriage material. Thats the easy part. Especially when marriage is used as an affront to secure  dates from women that might not ordinarily meet and go out with these guys under more normal circumstances.

I've been married once and engaged once. Most likely I will propose marriage for the third time in my life someday. That will be two times too much. Ideally a guy should propose marriage once in his life but the fact I've done it twice already proves I can pull the trigger to get married.

Because it's ideal for a guy to get married once in his life, is it so bad that he spends 3 or more years in the hunt for a quality lady? Most people here have already been married once. On the second go around we should be more cautious but we should also be wiser to spot a find candidate for marriage when we see one and not let that person get away. If we don't see the right one to marry, we should spend how ever long it takes to find the right one...not just anyone. If I'm going to marry again, I'm not planning for divorce and the lady I marry must be planning for the long haul too.

Did you plan for divorce on your first failed marriage? Of course you didn't, most people do not plan divorce prior to marriage. Marriage is a give and give proposition, for both parties. That means you give and give, expecting nothing in return.

I'm going to Kiev next month and I will carefully evaluate the lady I'm meeting as a marriage candidate. With long distance romance we have a short time to decide so we have to date everyday and all day to learn about each other and to make a decision if we go exclusive or go separate ways.

You say that as a negative. I say that is a positive. If a guy or gal can date multiple people and have a bigger pool of marriage candidates to choose from, they will most likely make a better choice. They will most likely pick the more beautiful, smarter, stronger candidate for marriage thus passing on good genes to their kids. Win win.

Again Billy you are missing the point entirely. I never stated it was a negative. You are evaluating a "marriage candidate". Do you mean like a job interview or what? You can have a pool of 1000 women and it won't make a bit of difference if you are not willing to give up the hunt, and the hunt for perfection. You won't like this word but somewhere you will have to "settle", if you are in fact marriage material. I completely and fully advocate meeting women, getting to know them and those that interests you, developing a relationship. This can hardly be done in one trip.

Don't be bothered by the guys that post trip reports dating many women and coming up empty handed. They are in an important period of their lives to find a life partner however they see fit and it's too early to think anybody is a playboy.

I'm not bothered merely questioning. I am not advocating OWWs. I have been myself in the past a "perpetual playboy" and not interested in marrying. I have been engaged 3 times since my one divorce. I backed out each time. I continued to date more women. In one respect it didn't work for me, in another respect it did as I am married.

[Faux Pas]

I rese...rese...resemble that remark!  

Actually, it wasn't your TR that spawned my question TBB. But hey, if the shoe fits  

Ambition being greater than achievement, like having a "poop", once you've had it, you don't want it anymore.

Exactly

[CanadaMan]

Actually, it wasn't your TR that spawned my question TBB. But hey, if the shoe fits  

Be careful FP.
This might spawn indignation on the part of TBB.
He just might come back and ask why his TR wasn't worthy of spawning this thread!

Kind of like Markus' indignation for not being designated the original OWW. 

[Gator]

I enjoyed immensely three WMVM "scouting"  trips, and after each I returned to America thinking about only one particular RW. 

Also, I have been married almost 90% of my adult life.  To paraphrase Billy's comment that you need to date 20 women to find the "one," I guess I need to marry 20 women to find the one.

The RW have a guideline that something is wrong with a man who has never been married by 40.  So don't worry about TBB - he has a few more years left.

I have no problem with a man not marrying.  Marriage is something sacred.  Perhaps those who never have married recognize how serious it is, the high odds for divorce, the consequences of divorce.  They rather live alone.  Or they have met someone resembling my golfing buddy who remarked one day, "If I had murdered my wife when I first wanted to, I would be out of prison now."

My two sons have been the greatest source of joy, and if I had never married I would have missed that.

[SANDRO43]

To paraphrase Billy's comment that you need to date 20 women to find the "one," I guess I need to marry 20 women to find the one.

You either have to be VERY affluent, and/or a Moslem to afford that .