Dressing code and how to disapear in the crowd ...

[docetae]

Quick question, I know this will be hard for me to look something else than a foreigner but what are the difference regarding dressing for a man between Canada/US and Ukraine ?

Starting on the physical side, people are already looking at me here (imagine John Malkovich around 30 and 6ft6), but I don't want to become the local attraction....

[Bruce]

I assume you are white - if not forget it. 

Now, wear dark worn clothes, worn boots reasonably out of style and beat up (square toe will still do), have a day or two old fuzz on the face, don't wash for a few days, sprinkle some vodka and a bit of dirt on the clothes, don't look anyone directly in the eye unless you have to, do not smile, look down in general and do not speak unless spoken to.   Extra points for keeping your hair close cropped and do not have a mustache (other than the day or two of fuzz).

Height will be a problem.  Chances are people will naturally want to talk to you .............but just keep on moving unless it is the police. 

When its date time cleaning up and being a foreigner is permitted, provided you act with class .

Good luck.

[Elen]

wonder why are you all such "afraid" to look like foreigners?

[BC]

As cold as it is now over there I don't think folks will wonder too much about another bundle in the crowd.

[dorogoyroberto]

wonder why are you all such "afraid" to look like foreigners?

Ms. Elen,

You have a point. I *am* a foreigner here and do not go to great pains  to advertise the fact nor hide it. True, I have yet to wear my New  York Mets sweatshirts in public and my wardrobe is  the same,  dark, sober  clothing I wore stateside.

This morning, a shop assistant at Dari Moya had the audacity to flaunt her New York Yankees cap, so I naturally berated her.

Roberto
Kiev, Ukraine

[docetae]

Elen, this is not the fact about being identified as a foreigner (I'm already identifed as french in Canada) but I just prefer to be discreet for multiple reasons :

- I don't want to answer the question : do you play basketball  ? (asked 172635645 times in my life at least)
- I don't want to be a scammer magnet.

Even in Montreal, if you walk with a camera, you get people asking you if you speak english , telling you they have forgot their wallet in the hotel and they need 20$ ...
So if I can avoid this first level of annoyance, my goal will be reached.

[dorogoyroberto]

Mr. Doc,

Then, suggest you consider what Bruce advised: wear darkish clothing as  FSU men generally do, especially those out of their early 20s. Will you  be walking around escorted or will you have company? If you are  accompanied by a friend/acquaintance, stay in conversation with them.  Ukrainians, for example, are not nosy and respect privacy, so you are  not likely to be confronted. However, those seeking handouts are  audacious in every country I have lived/visited.

Roberto
Kiev, Ukraine

[Shadow]

Doc, forget comments about dark clothes. What you have to do is not dress like you are on holiday. Dress like you would when attending a business congress. People might spot that you are a foreigner by your looks, but if not dressed for holidays will be uncertain if you are living locally or not.

Perhaps you should look at some webcams and see how people are dressed in general.

[jb]

Maybe it's diferent in Ukraine, but if you visit Russia, especially  Moscow or St.Pete, you'd be viewed as something of an oddity, or even a  non-person, if you walk about smelling of dirt and vodka, needing a  shave, and wearing old clothes.  Moscovites will dress very nicely  for all trips around town, both men and women, and folks from St Pete  consider Moscovites to be uncouth.  Some of the men, getting out  of their BMWs at the supermarket, look like an ad right out of  GQ.  IOW, they dress quite stylishly.

I guess it's all in what you are comfortable with. 

[Bruce]

Can not disagree with JB on that if you are in larger cities you do not want to go around with a taint of vodka all scruffy - though it definitely would help in the smaller cities and out of the way places.  Dark conservative clothes as well as close cropped hair without a mustache or beard is generally the best way to blend in.   Shoes are a give away if they are just so out of fashion for the region you are going to (or too new) so watch out.  If you wear glasses, odd styles or different fashion are a dead give away as well.  Lack of a smile (look at me, dumb Westerner),  remaining humble, appearing that you know where you are going (do not fiddle with maps in public, persistently gaze to admire architecture etc.) and not making direct eye contact goes a long way to blending in.

[RacerX]

If you really want to blend in, just check out some of the web cams and see what everyone's wearing (a little difficult because the cams aren't that good). I used to think everyone wore black, but that's not true today - about a third do not.  Yes, the shoes are a dead giveaway - if you don't have some 'Euro' ones, just wait until you get there and pick up some.  Most of the guys are wearing ski caps, jeans are fine, although some high-end ones will make you seem extra cool.

I'm tall too, and the good news is that Russians have long arms (or like to wear longer sleeves), so I had no trouble buying a very nice leather coat there last month.

If you want to see if you pass the 'blend-in' test, just enter any museum after having paid the "locals" ticket fare and see if the babushka guarding the door is fooled. 

[Albert]

Racer, he is going to Ukraine.  Unlike Russia, Ukraine abolished the dual pricing system at state run organizations (museums, ballet, etc.) a few years back.

[dorogoyroberto]

Doc, forget comments about dark clothes. What you have to do is not  dress like you are on holiday. Dress like you would when attending a  business congress.

Mr. Shadow,

Respectfully disagree with your first sentiment: am reminded everyday  about the preference for dark clothes, especially by those 30+  gentlemen.

Agree most vigorously with your following two sentences, as business attire, even casual business attire is well-accepted here.

A reminder to Mr. doc: it is winter, and it is cold. Zero degrees  Fahrenheit and snowing as I write, having just returned from "walking"  our dog.  A really warm coat, and hat-gloves-scarf are mandatory,  as are appropriate footwear.

Roberto
Kiev, Ukraine

[docetae]

I'm from Montreal and -5F is common here  I will be in Kiev middle of march so I expect the same kind of weather than here : potential snow storm and Temp between 14F and 40F  ...

.  I will just wear the same as I have already a preference for dark colours ... So Kenneth Cole / Calvin Klein and Gap ...

[Shadow]

Mr. Shadow,

Respectfully disagree with your first sentiment: am reminded everyday about the preference for dark clothes, especially by those 30+ gentlemen.

As you are living there I respect your opinion  Perhaps it is a difference that I did not see dress very different from what I am used to in my home country. With Ukrainians and Russians trying to ask me directions I guess I did blend in well.

[Maxx]

I was the 'Kung Foo expert' at blending in. Twice I shared a train compartment with Russian(s) and they never caught on. I had a nice 40 something RW speak a few sentences to me in Russian smile and say "Das Vadanya" and walk down the isle toting her suitcase. This was after an 18 hour train trip together. Another time I and my Russian ex-wife shared an Moscow apartment with a babuska. I was "Dima" the strong silent RM. I had to be as the rent was only 150 rubles a night. Elvira knew how to work all the angles. I lived this way for 2 days and nights without the old lady ever catching on. I would walk the streets and ride the subways, buses and trolley buses and no body would give me a second look. Once I was wearing kaki green military cap in Ekaterinburg and spoke to my first RW Irina in English. This one older RW sitting next to us mouth dropped open. She could have been struck down by a feather. Irina thought it was funny.

True not everyone wears black clothes but enough of them do. You can't go wrong wearing black. Close cropped hair is the way to go. But mostly it is in the expression you wear on your face. Pretend you are going to a funeral. Not depressed just at peace. Avoid eye contact. Don't smile for no reason (they will think your nuts or simple minded)

Shoes can give one away though. I have worn all black sport shoes and have had a young woman stare at them in the subway.

If it's cold outside always wear a hat. In Russian every man will wear a hat on a cold day. Usually the hats are quality such as a mink Ushanka or made of fox or beaver fur.

Faux fur (artificial) is NOT the way to go there like the military hats at http://www.Balticrim.com .

                                                        Nyt!

Only the poor wear military surplus (except Americans goofing off ). Some of the younger men wear wool stocking caps.

The best way to blend is go to one of those kiosk "malls", you know the one's with all the stalls. Then buy a jacket that you see other RM wearing and some of those clunky black shoes with the square toes.    

[dwfunk]

Quick question, I know this will be hard for me to look something else than a foreigner but what are the difference regarding dressing for a man between Canada/US and Ukraine ?

Starting on the physical side, people are already looking at me here (imagine John Malkovich around 30 and 6ft6), but I don't want to become the local attraction....

ok, so this 'worked' for me. It was not intentional, but it was hilarious the way it turned out. 

Introducing: "Secret Agent Man, Special Policeman, or Gangster from Chicago!"  My friends stateside added the SAM label, the others came from encounters on the Metro. . . n

[Rvrwind]

This is about the funniest topic there is in regards to visiting Russia, ROTFLMFAO!!!

I don't know about Ukraine but in Russia, you couldn't blend in if you wanted to, no matter what you wear. I have lived here going on 3 years, all my clothes were purchased here as well as the accessories. I very seldom wear my Cowboy Boots anymore or my hat & people still know I'm a foreigner, LOL.

The fact that they talk to you & ask questions of you is only being polite & them hoping you can converse in Russian. I get it all the time, but don't kid yourself, very few are fooled by your blending in. LOL What a waste of time. Be yourself, wear what you usually wear as long is it isn't out in left field & you'll be just fine.

The only person you fool by trying to blend in, is yourself, not the locals.

RVR-Canadian Cowboy/Agency Owner

[Elen]

with such hat's style ( like dwfunk had) it would be difficult to disappear in a crowd ( in Moscow streets at least)

[Ste]

I went to Urals in my Bolton Wanderers Top, really scabby jeans, unsuitable shoes and no hat. Every 30 secs someone said 'Galava! - Kholodna!' at me but I'm British, I don't need no coat and the only men who wear hats are benders.

I also had totally long hair, down to my shoulder blades (two 'experimental' haircuts later by Nadia it's normal length now...) and a two day beard.

Like Maxx, I was still taken as not foriegn, being asked directions, etc despite looking like Jesus, or worse, the guy from DDT. One b@stard bloke on the train thought i was French tho, so I had to kill him.

So when I got to Chel we spent all day buying me a hat, which is one of those leather quite hard ones, iike a riding helmet. When I wear it to ASDA, with black leather coat, you should see everyone get of my way cos I look like a really hard Russian asylum seeking pimp drug dealer vagabond.

Ste

PS This is me in Russia having gone a bit mad with the botox...

[dwfunk]

with such hat's style ( like dwfunk had) it would be difficult to disappear in a crowd ( in Moscow streets at least)

I'm also 195 cm tall, so my instructions from my honey,  were that upon  exiting customs to "stand, not rest, I find"  i.e. park myself some  where out of the way, and stay standing and she would find me.  The  local Mafioso type who runs the taxi service was not happy we already  had pre-arranged transportation!  Another item that added to the  overall mystic. . . .<grin>

The encounter with the police officers in the Metro made her very bold  in our subsequent trips on the Metro. It pays to have connections or at  least the appearance of connections!


-david

[Elen]

I just meant that majority of males in Msocow didn't wear such hats (шляпы) as well as russian style of fur hats ( ушанки) at Moscow streets is a sign that with a prоbability of 99% a man is not Muscovite (uniforms don't count)

[Son of Clyde]

Roberto,

If you have a moment can you take a walk outside and snap a few photo's and post them in this thread? It will give docatae some idea of the fashion in Ukraine.

From what I remember there is some variation but not much in the way of prints or bright colors. A Hawaiian shirt will not do especially in March. Baseball caps are not popular unless they are bland colors. Pavel wears a tan cap in Kiev. No red, yellow or orange colors. I remember seeing men wearing drab, brown, olive or tan pants with those square toe shoes. I have never seen men wearing shorts except in Yalta in September.

You can try to blend but your height will be a problem. 

[Elen]

speaking about baseball caps - mine is that red one

[Taz]

I have sort of a contrary opinion. You can try and blend in but something people never think about changing are their facial expressions and body language. I can spot a Russian a mile away here no matter WHAT THEY ARE WEARING! Body language is such an obvious clue to spot foreigners.

Same goes in Russia for Americans. Normally you all have some silly grin on your face and stand too erect. Dead giveaway on your national origin. Notice how Russians rarely smile in phots well Americans are usually the opposite.

So you can wear your dark clothes, ratty shoes, sad jacket and all you will often do is identify yourself as either a poor American or an American with terrible taste in clothes. If you are really serious go to the local rinok and buy some local clothes. I'd wager a 100$ that people will still identify you as a foreigner!

I personally never worried too much about it. Sometimes you get extra attention and this can be a good things as I have met some great friends via chance encounters. I could pass pretty well as a Russian if I wanted and I speak the language well enough that they confuse me with being from a Russian satellite country rather than an American. I had more fun though with the chance meetings of interesting people. I never got hassled more or less by the militia either based on my manner of dress.